Question for Axel experts

[Mathman]

This question came up on the MK Forum. Is it possible to do a 2A/2A sequence?

This would be a nice point-getter in a ladies' LP. Some skaters (Mao Asada, for instance) do a 2A/3T combination in place of a second triple-triple.

But about an Axel-Axel sequence the rules say:

Axel jumps in a row without any connecting hop, mazurka or any other non-listed jump, is not a jump sequence, but two separate jumps.

And

A jump sequence with more than one revolution on the ice from the completion of the one jump before the commenement of the other jump will not be considered as a jump sequence.

So my question is: is it possible to land on your (right) back outside edge, get in the required hop or mazurka, and somehow end up on your front (left) take-off edge, all without rotating more than "one revolution"?

 

[Mafke]

I think Surya Bonaly used to do a 2ax-2ax, landing on her right foot stepping onto the left and right up into the air again.

Aslo IIRC she began one program with a 2ax from a standstill.

 

[Mathman]

I think Surya Bonaly used to do a 2ax-2ax, landing on her right foot stepping onto the left and right up into the air again.

But my question is, is this allowed under the CoP? It is not a sequence because it does not have a "hop" in between, and it is not a combination because you have to change feet.

So am I right to think that there is no way to do it under the current rules?

 

[nymkfan51]

Thanks for starting this thread MM ... I'm the one who proposed this combo over at MKF ... of course, never taking into account the details of exactly how it would be done. It looked so good on paper to me!

Experts ... HELP!!!!

 

[antmanb]

This question came up on the MK Forum. Is it possible to do a 2A/2A sequence?

This would be a nice point-getter in a ladies' LP. Some skaters (Mao Asada, for instance) do a 2A/3T combination in place of a second triple-triple.

But about an Axel-Axel sequence the rules say:

And

So my question is: is it possible to land on your (right) back outside edge, get in the required hop or mazurka, and somehow end up on your front (left) take-off edge, all without rotating more than "one revolution"?

Yes indeedy - the mazurka would do it. A simple side hop would also work so the skater does a 2axel landing on the RBO picks in with the left toe pick and pulls up without turning at all, lands on a LFO edge with right toe assist (so technically you hop from you left pick onto the right pick and push onto a LFO edge) into the second double axel.

If some kind of turn is required between the jumps to make it a sequence rather than just 2 jumps, you could land on the RBO egde from the forst double axel and execute a double bracket on the right foot (like mao does before her triple axel) and then step to the LFO edge for the second double axel.

Or maybe even land the first double axel, cross the left foot over the right, execute a LBI three turn which leaves yo on the LFO take off edge for the second double axel (which would be pretty hard).

Any more?

Ant

 

[Mafke]

So am I right to think that there is no way to do it under the current rules?

You're probably right (sigh), one more little reason to hate COP.

 

[gkelly]

Ant is correct. Axel-mazurka-axel is a valid sequence, and so is axel-tap toe-axel.

Mazurka and tap-toe (what Ant calls a side hop) are basically quarter to half-revolution transitional jumps with a toe loop takeoff (or toe walley in the case of the tap-toe, but not if it's directly from the back outside landing of a previous jump) to turn from backward to forward; the legs are usually crossed in the air on the mazurka.

You see waltz jump-tap toe-waltz jump from beginners who can't even do single jumps yet, and axel-tap toe-axel is a pretty common sequence at pre-preliminary level, where axel is the hardest jump allowed.

Of course the axels can be doubles at higher levels, and where the new judging system is in use the intervening hop is necessary for the sequence to count as such.

 

[Sylvia]

This question came up on the MK Forum. Is it possible to do a 2A/2A sequence?

Yes, I've seen the 2A+2A sequence quite a bit. At 2007 U.S. Nationals, coach Tom Zakrajsek had 3 of his girls (Rachael Flatt and 2 juniors, Alexe Gilles and Chaochih Liu) do the 2A+2A sequence. It was the second-to-last jump in Flatt's free skate, and with a basemark of 5.81 and +GOE, she received 6.67 points for it. The sequence has a 5.28 basemark if done in the first half of the FS with 0 GOE.

 

[gkelly]

I just did some quick searches of the protocols from 2006 and 2007 Worlds and Junior Worlds. Looks like the axel-axel sequence is more common from pairs at that level -- e.g., Pang and Tong did it in the free skate this year, Inoue and Baldwin last year, Dube and Davison both years. I don't remember exactly what kind of transitional steps or hops they had between the axels.

 

[gkelly]

Or maybe even land the first double axel, cross the left foot over the right, execute a LBI three turn which leaves yo on the LFO take off edge for the second double axel (which would be pretty hard).

Yeah. I'm not sure that would count as a sequence because, although there's only half a turn on the ice between the jumps, there isn't any "connecting hop, mazurka or any other non-listed jump."

Maybe double axel, half loop, LBI three into double axel? Or double axel, half loop, half flip into double axel might be a little easier.

 

[Zuranthium]

Better yet would be 2Axle, 3Sal, 2 Axle as the spot for someone's 3-jump combination/sequence. That would get you a lot more points than the 2Toe/2Loop (or 2Toe/2Toe or 2Loop/2Loop,

) which is normally done with a Triple jump as a person's 3-jump pass.

~Z

 

[Tinymavy15]

i would like too see somebody try this, but the judges woudl probably mark it as two seprate double axels, no matter what the rule book says.

 

[nymkfan51]

i would like too see somebody try this, but the judges would probably mark it as two seprate double axels, no matter what the rule book says.

I wonder ... I had forgotten that several pairs teams do them and they get credited with the sequence. Why would they penalize the singles skaters?

 

[antmanb]

Better yet would be 2Axle, 3Sal, 2 Axle as the spot for someone's 3-jump combination/sequence. That would get you a lot more points than the 2Toe/2Loop (or 2Toe/2Toe or 2Loop/2Loop,

) which is normally done with a Triple jump as a person's 3-jump pass.

~Z

I don't know i thought there was a rule stating that in a three jump sequence (as opposed to a three jump combination) you only get marks for the two hardest jumps, which would render one of the double axels superfluous in the above example.

Ant

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Consecutive axels in a circle are not only difficult but happen to be a real bravuro touch to the finish of a routine. It's done quite a lot in ballet with variations.

How stifling the CoP can be!

Joe

 

[gkelly]

You can do as many double axels as you want. They'll just count as separate jump elements rather than as a sequence if there are no hops and/or too many turns and steps between them. If you do them at the end of the program, the jump boxes will all have been filled anyway, so you'll get no points for the last one(s).

At the middle levels the USFSA includes a variation of the Zayak rule to limit repetitions of double axels as well as triples.

And of course, in an exhibition, show, or pro program where artistic effect is more important and following well-balanced program rules (which were in effect well before the code of points) less important, you can do whatever you want.

 

[gkelly]

I wonder ... I had forgotten that several pairs teams do them and they get credited with the sequence. Why would they penalize the singles skaters?

The rules are the same for singles and pairs regarding what counts as a jump sequence. Sylvia mentioned several singles skaters who have done double axel-double axel sequences and gotten credit for them.

In my quick protocol search, I found that Moris Pfeifhofer did one at Junior Worlds; I just didn't mention him because I figured more people would have seen the top-10 pairs from senior Worlds.

i would like too see somebody try this, but the judges woudl probably mark it as two seprate double axels, no matter what the rule book says

It would be up to the technical specialist (caller) to determine whether two jumps in a row qualify as a sequence or as two separate jump elements, according to the rules and guidelines Mathman quoted at the beginning of this thread. The judges would simply judge the quality with one grade of execution or two, depending whether one or two elements are called.

 

[Tonichelle]

The only '2a-2a' sequences I've seen were Kurt's... and he always had to have a 'step' in between the jumps to set up the next 2a (4 in a row in one of his programs lol)

 

[Mathman]

The only '2a-2a' sequences I've seen were Kurt's... and he always had to have a 'step' in between the jumps to set up the next 2a (4 in a row in one of his programs lol)

Yeah, that was in Don't Fence Me In, right? :agree: (not to mention "It's Easy" with about eight of them, but not all in a row).

Michelle also did four in a row (with a couple of steps in between) in her solo segment of the closing number of COI three years ago.

 

[Mathman]

Thanks for all the answers. So I guess the bottom line is, a 2A/2A sequence is certainly possible, but it is not a very attractive possibility under the CoP because it is only worth 5.28 points.

So you wouldn't want to use one of your three combos/sequences on it, when almost anythig else scores higher (even a 3T/2T combo is 5.30).