New ISU rule changes: "Flutzing" addressed

[Mathman]

Ok, everybody bookmark this, so we can refer to it for all our CoP arguments next year!

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-183415-200633-121139-0-file,00.pdf

Many new rule changes for next year. How about this one (has Mr. Cinquanta been reading the figure skating message boards, LOL?)

Jumps, Flips and Lutz:

In obvious cases of starting from the wrong edge the technical Panel will indicate the error to the judges who MUST [my emphasis] reduce their GOE accordingly.

Several changes in point values for elements. A double Axel will now be worth 3.5 points instead of 3.3 (but you can do only three in a program).

In pairs, the point values for triple and quad twists have been increased by half a point. (By an interesting coincidence, U.S. champs Castille and Okolski were just complaining about this in a featured article in the latest Spotlight on Skating magazine. They made the point that under last year's rules a level four double twist was worth more than level one triple twist, which was a disincentive for teams to attempt the more difficult element.

Lots of other goodies.

 

[Spun Silver]

OH dear. Not happy news for Sasha fans.

 

[kappa_1]

OH dear. Not happy news for Sasha fans.

...Or for nowadays' ladies fans in general.

 

[layman]

OH dear. Not happy news for Sasha fans.

or Mao fans...Ota fans...Irina fans....

I wonder if the deductions will also extend to the "lip" jump...then even more fans will need to worry.

 

[gio]

...Or for nowadays' ladies fans in general.

It's a positive news, not sad! Now those girls will try to do the jumps correctly. At least they will try, maybe.
Was it fair that Caroline Zhang was rewarded with FOUR triple flips?

 

[gio]

or Mao fans...Ota fans...Irina fans....

I wonder if the deductions will also extend to the "lip" jump...then even more fans will need to worry.

O how sad!! I will cry for two months now!
Come on! This is positive news! Look at the girls who can do properly the Lutz and the flip. They are to admire. It wasn't fair to them until now.

 

[feraina]

If all these positions (in a spiral sequence) are executed with assistance of the hand/arm, Level can not be more than 1 (but GOE is not restricted). Minimum of 3
seconds in each position.

Someone got tired of listening to Dick's complaints and decided to try to do something about those ugly spirals.

 

[feraina]

Was it fair that Caroline Zhang was rewarded with FOUR triple flips?

She will still get credit for four triples, just maybe lower GOE's on the two lutz's. Her flips are on the correct edge and generally gets 0 GOE, occasionally even +'s. Her lutzes are already given -GOE's (more so on the solo than the combo, b/c the combo GOE takes into account also the transition into and the execution of the second jump). From what I understand, the new rules merely state that the caller informs the judges whether a flip/lutz is on the wrong edge, and the judges have to deduct DOE's accordingly.

So the difference from the old rules is that the judges will notice more often when it's a lutz, not that they deduct more points. I'm not sure that this rule change affects skaters like Caroline who have such obvious flutzes that it doesn't take a specialist to notice, but rather the more subtle cheats that might escape the judge's attention.

 

[Tinymavy15]

Caroline Zhang is still VERY young and by the time she competes as a Senior Lady at worlds etc, she might have her jump problems fixed. She and her coaches will try especilly hard to fix them if it means that much under the new sysytem.

Good news about the double axel gatting more points... and the twists. I like the sound if that. Means that sombody could now break the record for highest score easier. :chorus:

 

[morninglight]

Jeff's fan would be happy to hear that

Just out of curiosity, who is known for having a correct lutz? I know Yu-na is among ladies. What about men?

 

[gio]

There is a new Zayak rule about spins and double axels. You can't do twice a spin with the same abbreviations and you can't repeat a double axel more than three times.

 

[R.D.]

This is a good thing, from a pure standpoint. If you cheat you should be penalized accordingly. Now hopefully this all-seeing "caller" can actually get everything right...that's a big burden to put on just one person. Shouldn't there be assistants? or just use instant replay to overrule a miscall.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I think the US Ladies of today do the correct edge take off for the Lutz. I'm not so sure about the new boys on the block but Evan and Johnny seem to have a good back outide edge. American skaters have been so lacksadaisical about this because of Tara getting away with it. I think now it has been recognized as a fault and I am glad there will be no more plusses in the GoEs for a flutz.

Double axels getting higher points?? Why? It's like wire hangars. It has become such a standard jump like a double lutz. I don't get the

(but you can do only three in a program).

. It should be one, and one in combo. No?

The rest of the article is a weekend in the garden read.

Joe

 

[Mathman]

This is a good thing, from a pure standpoint. If you cheat you should be penalized accordingly. Now hopefully this all-seeing "caller" can actually get everything right...that's a big burden to put on just one person. Shouldn't there be assistants? or just use instant replay to overrule a miscall.

There is an assitant technical specialist and also a "technical controller" that comprises the three-person team. In practice, I don't think there are many disgreements or challenges of the technical specialists calls.

Yeah, it will be interesting to see if this new rule tyurns out to have any effect at all. Under the old rules, the judges are supposed to take off for incorrect edge anyway. So as usual, it's a question of, who do you trust more to make the correct assessment, the technical specialist or the judges?

But even so I think iot will help. Under the old rules the judges would often give a 0 or positive GOE for a bad flutz, justifying it by saying, yes, I took something off for the bad edge, but that was balanced by other positive features of the jump.

As I understand the new rules, the judges will still be able to do that if they want to. But there will be a certain amount lot of pressure on the judges NOT do this so much, lest they land outside the dreaded "corridore."

 

[Tinymavy15]

agreeing with Joesitz.

Only three? would anybody do more? It should be one solo, and if you want to repeat it, it has to be in combo or sequence. Okay, maybe two solo ones... but three? who has time with the six or seven triples you have to jam in there as well!

 

[Mathman]

I don't get the

(but you can do only three in a program)

It should one, and one in combo. No?

I think that applies only to triple jumps and quads. You can do as many doubles as you want.

I think what they want to cut down on is programs that are poorly balanced, where the shaters box themselves into a Zayak corner with triple/triples. etc., and then have nothing to do with their last couple of jumping passes than to throw in a couple of extra triple Axels. This might encourage skaters to present a full complement of triples.

(Not really, though. As Tinymavy point out, who does four or more double Axels in a program?)

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

As I understand the new rules, the judges will still be able to do that if they want to. But there will be a certain amount lot of pressure on the judges NOT do this so much, lest they land outside the dreaded "corridore."

but it does leave the door open for 'special' skaters'. Am I correct?

 

[R.D.]

There is an assitant technical specialist and also a "technical controller" that comprises the three-person team. In practice, I don't think there are many disgreements or challenges of the technical specialists calls.

Yeah, it will be interesting to see if this new rule tyurns out to have any effect at all. Under the old rules, the judges are supposed to take off for incorrect edge anyway. So as usual, it's a question of, who do you trust more to make the correct assessment, the technical specialist or the judges?

But even so I think iot will help. Under the old rules the judges would often give a 0 or positive GOE for a bad flutz, justifying it by saying, yes, I took something off for the bad edge, but that was balanced by other positive features of the jump.

As I understand the new rules, the judges will still be able to do that if they want to. But there will be a certain amount lot of pressure on the judges NOT do this so much, lest they land outside the dreaded "corridore."

Hey, I just caught something. The wording of that paragraph (assuming no modification has been made in its structure) says in OBVIOUS cases the judges must reduce GOE points. I read that as "only if it's blatant". In other words, a slight bobble won't seem to count. Then again, I'm nitpicking as I could really care less about this kind of stuff

 

[Mathman]

Oops, I just looked a little closer. I think I was wrong in post 18 when I said that the judges can balance a negative GOE for a flutz with a positive GOE for excellence in other areas.

According to the chart on page 8, it looks like a flutz has a mandatory negative GOE or -1 to -3 "depending on the length of the edge." (That is, switching over to the wrong edge at the last minute is not as bad as cruising in all the way and doing a blatant flip with no pretense of anything else.)

Evidently the judges will have to give a negative GOE if the tech specialist says so. I believe it is still in the judges hands about the -1, -2 or -3, however.

 

[chuckm]

I think that applies only to triple jumps and quads. You can do as many doubles as you want.

I think what they want to cut down on is programs that are poorly balanced, where the shaters box themselves into a Zayak corner with triple/triples. etc., and then have nothing to do with their last couple of jumping passes than to throw in a couple of extra triple Axels. This might encourage skaters to present a full complement of triples.

(Not really, though. As Tinymavy point out, who does four or more double Axels in a program?)

Skaters who have to think about this rule are those men who plan 3As but then do 2As instead. If they also had two 2As in the program, one of them won't count.