Downgraded jumps and the Zayak rule | Golden Skate

Downgraded jumps and the Zayak rule

CrazyKittenLady

Record Breaker
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Feb 2, 2019
Austria
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I always thought a downgraded jump would count towards the Zayak rule. So in the example above jump element 1 would actually count as a triple and thus make the 3S in jump element 8 invalid. Did I misunderstand the rule? If so, how do judges decide to mark a jump a downgraded quad vs. a triple, or better, what is the point of this distinction?

ETA: I think I figured it out and no, downgraded jumps don't count towards Zayaking. Still, the whole concept of a downgraded jump seems intransparent to me.
 
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I always thought a downgraded jump would count against the Zayak rule. So in the example above jump element 1 would actually count as a triple and thus make the 3S in jump element 8 invalid. Did I misunderstand the rule? If so, how do judges decide to mark a jump a downgraded quad vs. a triple, or better, what is the point of this distinction?
I don't really keep up with rule changes, but my understanding is that it is (or used to be anyway) all right if 1 is a separate jump and 8 is in combination. If that were illegal, then the 3A in 3 plus the 3A by itself as 7 would also be against the rules.
 
I don't really keep up with rule changes, but my understanding is that it is (or used to be anyway) all right if 1 is a separate jump and 8 is in combination. If that were illegal, then the 3A in 3 plus the 3A by itself as 7 would also be against the rules.
Oh sorry, you have a good point, I think I even misused the term Zayak in my example above. :palmf:
What I meant was that in case the first jump is counted as 3S, the skater would actually repeat 3 triples (3S, 3Lz, 3A) which is of course not Zayaking, but also against the rules. But it seems as long as the first jump is in the protocol as a quad, it is fine in the system.
 
View attachment 8415
I always thought a downgraded jump would count towards the Zayak rule. So in the example above jump element 1 would actually count as a triple and thus make the 3S in jump element 8 invalid. Did I misunderstand the rule? If so, how do judges decide to mark a jump a downgraded quad vs. a triple, or better, what is the point of this distinction?

ETA: I think I figured it out and no, downgraded jumps don't count towards Zayaking. Still, the whole concept of a downgraded jump seems intransparent to me.
I think at one time the downgraded jump would appear (and count) as if the higher rotations were never attempted. But they changed that and introduced the << notation.

In your example, the 4S<< is scored like a 3S, but is counted as a 4S for the sake of counting repeated jumps. At one time, it would have just appeared on the score sheet as 3S and would have been treated for all purposes like any other 3S. The introduction of the << notation gives a better idea of what actually happened, and allow the jump to be treated differently for different purposes.
 
Yeah so I think if it was written as a 4S but clearly jumped a 3S..it wouldn’t count.. but because the 4S was actually attempted a 4..unsuccessfully.. as it was over 3 rotations or clearly an attempted quad.. it is till ok.
 
I think at one time the downgraded jump would appear (and count) as if the higher rotations were never attempted. But they changed that and introduced the << notation.
Yes. There were a few more steps to the changes though.

The very first year of IJS, they were just calling downgraded quads as triples, and downgraded triples as doubles.

Remember also that the cutoff for downgrading at that time was "more than 90 degrees" short of rotation. So it may have looked like a successful quad in real time but showed up on the protocol as a triple.

That did lead to a Zayak problem when a clear 4T attempt was downgraded to 3T and the skater also included two intentional 3T.

So by 2005, the ISU introduced the < symbol to indicate downgrades. There were then two options, fully rotated (within 90 degrees) or downgrade to the base value of a full revolution less, with mandatory minus GOE.

A few years later, they recognized that this was an overly harsh penalty for jumps that might look clean in real time/from different angles, as opposed to being not even close to rotated. So that's when they introduced the distinction between << (downgrade, base value of one revolution less, for jumps more than 180 degrees short of rotation) vs. < (underrotated, 70% of the base value of the intended jump, for 91 to 180 degrees short).

And then several years after that they also introduced the q notation for jumps exactly 90 degrees short, with full base value but a reduction in GOE by the judges.

So now there are 4 different levels of recognition of how close to correct rotation a given jump has achieved, with increasing penalties for more severe lack of rotation.

However, to answer CrazyKittenLady's question, the change from calling the attempted quad a triple (which caused Zayak problems) to calling it a quad with a mark indicating lack of rotation was the first step in refining the notation and penalties for this range of errors.
 
Failed quads and Zayak still happen. At Nationals last year, Conrad Orzel had several issues. He popped both his quads into triples. So they were marked triples. As he had done a + 3toe combo, his quad toe, now marked as a 3toe, didn't count. Of course, it was not a downgraded jump. He popped the quad into a triple. Different kind of mistake but way more costly in the end. It didn't work out too well for him as he opened the triple Axel too...so he had only one valid jumping pass. So, a skater can have a downgraded quad but not a popped into a triple quad if they had a triple toe at the end of a combo.
 
Failed quads and Zayak still happen. At Nationals last year, Conrad Orzel had several issues. He popped both his quads into triples. So they were marked triples. As he had done a + 3toe combo, his quad toe, now marked as a 3toe, didn't count. Of course, it was not a downgraded jump. He popped the quad into a triple. Different kind of mistake but way more costly in the end. It didn't work out too well for him as he opened the triple Axel too...so he had only one valid jumping pass. So, a skater can have a downgraded quad but not a popped into a triple quad if they had a triple toe at the end of a combo.
Didn't the same sort of thing (a pop that wasn't a downgrade) cost Javier Fernandez an Olympic medal?
 
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