New ISU rule changes: "Flutzing" addressed

[antmanb]

That would work, if and only if, the Tech Spec and his Assts will really put their point across.

As the Tech Spec can say 'underrotated' he could and should say 'wrong edge'.
but how does a judge react to a jump not according to definition?

This flutz thing will never change, and they should make it legitimate with a base score of 2. It is easier than a Flip.

Joe

Why a base score of 2? I don't see that flutz is easier than a flip - it is essentially a flip with a difficult entry no?

Ant

 

[antmanb]

(I'm still looking for the non-jump that was specified in the docs. ETA: I can't find it, but I think it had something to do with landing on the wrong leg and not counting. I guess a toe loop that lands on the wrong leg is a flip.)

Landing on the wrong leg on a toe loop would not make it a flip - taking off and picking in with the wrong feet on a toe loop would make it a flip.

Ant

 

[Zuranthium]

The semi-Zayak limitation to the 2Axle seems pointless since they didn't include that at least one of them needs to be done in combination. :scratch:

Even more puzzling is the slight increase in points for the 2Axle??

I hope the Flutzing penalty doesn't get too severe. IMO, they should just take 1 point off the base value for very obvious Flutzes (it shouldn't be factored into the GOE). Any more than that is just spiteful. A Lutz that changes edge is still harder to do than a Toeloop, definitely.

~Z

 

[gio]

The semi-Zayak limitation to the 2Axle seems pointless since they didn't include that at least one of them needs to be done in combination. :scratch:
~Z

The fact that reapeted jumps must be in combo counts just for triples and quads. You can do three solo double axels if you want, but not more.

 

[Mathman]

I think ChuckM's explanation for the restriction on double Axels makes the most sense. It will have the effect of increasing the penalty for men skaters flubbing their triple Axel attempts.

Tha is, if they planned two triple Axels and two double Axels, but underrotated both of their triples, they won't just be able to go on with business as usual racking up 3.5 points over and over.

 

[Zuranthium]

That's an entirely separate problem, Mathman, as underrotated jumps should not simply be downgraded to Doubles.

And, gio...yes obviously that's the case. I'm saying that it's nonsense to not also extend the "at least one of them must be in combination" rule to programs that include 3 Double Axles.

~Z

 

[chuckm]

That's an entirely separate problem, Mathman, as underrotated jumps should not simply be downgraded to Doubles.

What I was talking about was when skaters at the last moment CHOOSE to do a 2A rather than a 3A. Lambiel and Buttle have both done this at competitions. The intended downgrade is typically seen with 4T (3T at the last minute), but it also happens with 3A.

I was not referring to underrotated 3As--those jumps would be counted as underrotated 3As, not bad 2A attempts, and they wouldn't be considered one of the 3 permissible 2As.

 

[Mafke]

As I understand it, it's not the lean but the rotation. Your blade is curving (slightly) clockwise, but your body (led by the upper body) is preparing to rotate counterclockwise.

This doesn't happen with a flip. I think that is why the ISU regards a flutz as a flawed Lutz instead of a flip.

The point (for me) is that in a sever flutz (like that of Sarah Hughes) her body wasn't _preparing_ to rotate clockwise (in her case) as her skate edge was going slightly counterclockwise, her switch to the inside edge a good meter or so before her skates left the ice meant that both the skate edge and body were rotating clockwise long (relatively speaking) before the jump.

In essence instead of doing the usual three or counter turn into the flip she did a RBO to RBI change of edge into the flip. Yes, that's a harder flip entrance than the three or counter, but it's a long way from a lutz.

 

[gkelly]

In essence instead of doing the usual three or counter turn into the flip she did a RBO to RBI change of edge into the flip. Yes, that's a harder flip entrance than the three or counter, but it's a long way from a lutz.

So, -3 GOE even with a clean landing, it ends up being worth 3.0 as opposed to 5.5 for a clean unremarkable triple flip -- adequate penalty, wouldn't you say?

Most flutzes are not *that* flawed though, so -1 or -2 would be more appropriate.

 

[southwest wind]

One lady that had a nice true lutz was Jennifer Robinson. She went to Frank Callahan to get it out of the corner of the rink and then it was a good jump for her. I guess that is what comes from skating at Mariposa
SWW

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Why a base score of 2? I don't see that flutz is easier than a flip - it is essentially a flip with a difficult entry no?

Ant

It's easier because no one who flutzes has ever missed the jump. It is a lifesaver for many baaaad lutzes.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Most of the descriptions of the Lutz jump that I have http://www.skatejournal.com/jump.html

Do you have any other than the above to show an example. What does the official document say?

the skater gliding into the jump in the opposite direction to which he will rotate in the air. Counterclockwise skaters will glide clockwise into the jump but will execute the rotation in their natural counterclockwise direction.

Nonsense. He's gliding into the opposite direction because that's the definition of the jump. The rule applies to both the right hand skater and the left hand skater depending on which foot he will toe pick in. .

"The lutz is a counter rotation jump, meaning the skater glides into the jump in the opposite direction to which he will rotate the jump in the air. CCW skaters will glide clockwise into the jump but will execute the rotation in their natural counterclockwise direction. The juxtaposition of directions in the lutz makes it a difficult element."As I understand it, it's not the lean but the rotation. Your blade is curving (slightly) clockwise, but your body (led by the upper body) is preparing to rotate counterclockwise.

You have to realize that your entry is where the skate is on a backoutside edge. It is leaning towards the boards on the skater's left side if you are heading down the middle. If you inadvertently rock over to an inside edge, the skater is now leaning towards the right side boards. I don't believe he can still hold that left lean body while doing the flutz. I may well be wrong but I need to see it, and more than just one example.

This doesn't happen with a flip. I think that is why the ISU regards a flutz as a flawed Lutz instead of a flip.

I had more trouble with a Flip than a Lutz, maybe Miki does too. I didn't take notice. However, the faulty Flip is called a Lip, and I was a Lipper reardless of which way I leaned.

Joe

 

[Mathman]

What does the official document say?

The official ISU document says that in the case of an attempted Lutz with an incorrect take-off from an inside edge, it is regarded as a flawed Lutz (not a flip) with a deduction of -1 to -3 depending on the length of the entry edge.

(We may wish that the official document said something different, but that's what it says. I'm not saying that the ISU is right, but if the question is, what does the official document say, that's what it says.) hwell:

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-183415-200633-121139-0-file,00.pdf

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

The official ISU document says that in the case of an attempted Lutz with an incorrect take-off from an inside edge, it is regarded as a flawed Lutz (not a flip) with a deduction of -1 to -3 depending on the length of the entry edge.

(We may wish that the official document said something different, but that's what it says. I'm not saying that the ISU is right, but if the question is, what does the official document say, that's what it says.) hwell:

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-183415-200633-121139-0-file,00.pdf

That's the rule and nothing has changed with that new news.

 

[Zuranthium]

It's easier because no one who flutzes has ever missed the jump.

Huh????

WHAT?!?!

You bewilder me.

~Z

 

[Mathman]

That's the rule and nothing has changed with that new news.

I think that's right. As far as I can tell, the only thing that has changed for next year is the increased role of the technical specialist.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I think that's right. As far as I can tell, the only thing that has changed for next year is the increased role of the technical specialist.

The judges will ignore him if he calls 'wrong edge'. They've been dealing with this flaw in Amercian judging for some time.

Joe

 

[Prince Princess]

Only Flutzing???lips ok???

This is bad news.
Because US new states are flutz jumpers,Caroline,Mirai and Ashley.

By the way, Yu Na kim is lips jumper.

 

[antmanb]

It's easier because no one who flutzes has ever missed the jump. It is a lifesaver for many baaaad lutzes.

I beg to differ - i've seen many ladies fall on a triple flutz.

Ant

 

[feraina]

By the way, Yu Na kim is lips jumper.

Really? Can you give a video link that shows this? I just went back and watched her worlds SP & LP, and couldn't really see it; maybe it's the camera angles.