Women and the Quad

[moriel]

My problem is that I do not think children should be elite, Olympic-level athletes. Children should absolutely do sports! They can even train intensively for junior competitions and to prepare themselves for a successful career once they have turned 18 and are considered an adult in the majority of the world.

Others such as flanker have disagreed and have said there is no reason to change the age limit. But I think the age limit should change to allow children to be children. Leave the stress of elite sports to adults.

All this other discussion about artistry, health, etc. has no bearing on my opinion here. A sport in which children are the best is a children's sport, and a "children's sport" should not be considered an elite sport. Elite athletes have the full-time job of being elite athletes. Children should not have full-time jobs.

And how exactly changing age limits will keep them out of elite sports and let them be children?
FS is a sport where, whenever you compete on senior level or not, you got to train on elite level since childhood if you want to compete at elite level as adult.
Please do tell us how raising the age limit will keep 10-12-14-16 years old from TRAINING on elite level. Which is exactly the full time job you are talking about. Except they won't be paid for it, I guess that is what will make it not be a full time job?

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

My problem is that I do not think children should be elite, Olympic-level athletes. Children should absolutely do sports! They can even train intensively for junior competitions and to prepare themselves for a successful career once they have turned 18 and are considered an adult in the majority of the world.

I don't know if the cut-off should be as high as 18, but I agree that children are too young to have to deal with the kind of pressure skaters like Julia L or Alysa have to. I find it troubling that Alysa has to deal with detractors at her age and has to be adult enough to overcome that criticism at 14. I also question the extent to which many of these young superstars have the intrinsic motivation to push themselves to their limit like they must to get to the top. Despite what they are trained to say, these kids might be pressured by their parents to push past injuries beyond what we might know.

 

[Blacknight]

I think that quads in SP is a question of time.

Pcs and goe can be manipulated only to some extent. I have no idea but based on how it went in Lombardia I assume that it was a serious conversation with judges after the short program. May be because the outcry about injustice was so loud. And Anna was judged quite differently after that.

I believe that with JO content and clean landings Trusova will make 170 during the season, something like 101+69. And with such a score for the free program she will be OK even without quads in SP.

Sure it question of time, but now it looks like artificial barrier. Judges behave enough free with goe and some skaters have good reputation. I think all it can give + 15-25 to score of "correct" skaters. It and contemptuous statements about quadsters from officials of the rusfed force to worry.
Despite all the obstacles i hope Trusova will break 250 in this season

 

[el henry]

whole post

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Thank you for your thoughts.

With regard to age limits, I cannot agree that it is "healthier" to keep a lower age limit because skaters might injure themselves if they train longer. That is a head scratcher for me.

All professional sports in the US have age limits. Many young phenoms could play pro at an earlier age. They risk injury, and the loss of a *far* larger payday than any skater will ever earn, by being forced to wait until they are 18 to turn pro (the lowest age I know of, some are 19). That's not a reason to lower the age.

Many men, pairs and dance skaters compete for many many years. Are the ladies such hothouse flowers that they cannot skate for the same amount of years? I think not.

I know that the analogies only work if one agrees with the argument, so I'm not going to speak to them. I agree with my own argument, so they work for me

 

[nussnacker]

I think „children should not be elite athletes“ argument works in a lot of disciplines. In many disciplines you can even enter as an adult, start learning the sport in your 20s and even go to the Olympics and medal. There are cases from recent Olympics when it was possible and didn’t even require full-time commitment, as those athletes even had normal jobs quite often.
But I don’t think it will work in figure skating, or gymnastics, or many other types that require rigorous training from a very young age, and require that type of training every single day of the week 6-8 h a day. It’s just a discipline that lives by different rules, and therefore I don’t think we can essentially apply the same standards to different types of sports.

 

[Elucidus]

If it turns out that 13- and 14-year olds can do more quads than anyone else, then we have entered a third historical era. First a man's sport, then a woman's sport, now a children's sport.

I pass no judgments. Just an observation of what seems to me to be reality.

But it isn't. The current statistical evidence shows that the most number of quads for ladies can be achieved in age of 15 so far It seems girls of lesser age can't have enough stamina/muscle power to maintain such number of quads in one program.

This is why I think barring injury, Sasha will be in for a rude awakening if she doesn’t work on her PCS once kamila turns senior. Kamila’s got it all: beautiful flexibility, spins, presence, and quads.

At that time I am afraid keeping her physical form and low enough weight will be much more relevant to her results than any PCS boost.

Why? It's because I believe that within 5 years there will be a multitude of Russian quadsters older than 18. And with such all these conversation and ideas about raising the age limit will "magically" stop. Let's come back to it then if we are still around.

While I am agree with the point of that message (that majority of so called "health" concerns are fueled by mere nationalistic interests) - I doubt that we will see many ladies quadsters after 18 - whether they Russians or not. I believe both Trusova and Tursynbaeva are very unique athletes with unnatural bodies for ladies - driving advantage from that. It can't be widespread occurrence and it can't be "manufactured" unless Russian scientists will invent genetics modifications based on Trusova's genes But again - we don't have enough data yet. Time will tell.

Many men, pairs and dance skaters compete for many many years. Are the ladies such hothouse flowers that they cannot skate for the same amount of years? I think not.

Yes. Exactly this. It's just specifics of modern single figure skating with heavy focus on hard jumps. Which in turn requires unparalleled level of physical fitness and weight control. Which is almost impossible for women after certain age - due to natural changes to their bodies. While it's possible in other types of sports - for single skating it isn't. Of course they can skate as they like like Leonova or Kostner - but it will never be the most top level. Last years Kostner would never be even in conversation about podium placements if not shameless push from judges compromising the sport image tbh. You can't be top athlete if you can't even get 50 TES
Even pairs don't require such level of physical form - because ladies in pairs need to do only couple of jumps themselves. Therefore they can have more longer careers as part of workload is shared with their partner. I am not implying that pairs is easier discipline btw. But it certainly have less specific requirements in relation to body build, leg muscles elasticity, weight, height and stamina.

 

[gkelly]

Yes. Exactly this. It's just specifics of single figure skating with heavy focus on jumps. Which in turn requires unparalleled level of physical fitness and weight control. Which is almost impossible for women after certain age - due to natural changes to their bodies. While it's possible in other types of sports - for single fs skating it isn't.

It is true that jump content as defined by number of revolutions in the air has increased gradually and inexorably over the decades in singles freeskating. And that the way the IJS Scale of Values has built in incentives for adding revolutions in the air while other types of difficulty have not developed in the same way because they are not rewarded commensurately with the difficulty in IJS or in some cases are actually illegal or valueless.

But that is not inherent in the nature of the possible technical challenges that athletic well-trained skaters could push limits on.

It would be entirely possible for the Scale of Values, program content rules, and associated other rules to be rewritten in such a way that quads would continue to earn high point values but that it would also be possible to earn points by pushing the difficulty envelope with other types of jumping skills and blade-to-ice skills that favor different body types or that are more dependent on pure technical mastery and less on body type.

That would be my personal preference.

(Leaving aside any possible rebalancing of GOE values, PCS factors, and/or program content to allow "artistry" or "quality" to keep up with the difficulty of athletic and technical skills in the scoring.)

Even pairs don't require such level of physical form - because ladies in pairs need to do only couple of jumps themselves. Therefore they can have more longer careers as part of workload is shared with their partner. I am not implying that pairs is easier discipline btw. But it certainly requires less specific requirements in relation to body build, leg muscles elasticity and stamina.

I would disagree with that. For one thing, pair ladies need to be smaller on average than singles skaters in order to be lifted and thrown easily. So the range of potential body types that can sustain a career in elite pair skating is narrower.

When pair freeskates were 4.5 minutes, arguably the stamina demands were higher than for 4-minute ladies' singles freeskates. But that is no longer an issue.

I guess we would have to ask women who have skated both pairs and singles at an elite level whether they find elite-level lifts, twists, and throws more or less demanding than triple jumps, or approximately the same. I don't know that there are any women who have trained both quad pair moves (or throw 3A) and quad solo jumps (or solo 3A), but if there are they could provide good insight into the relative demands on their bodies.

 

[MissBeeFarm]

This is not true at all. Increasing requirements for the age of athletes were made after a series of scandals with falsification of the age of sportsmen from some Asian countries. Health issues
there was none at all. In addition, an increase in age did not actually occur - a fixation was made for the age of 16 at the time of the competition. That is, if you apply the same formula for FS, it will postpone for six months the beginning of an adult career for girls born at the beginning of the year, and will bring closer those who were born in the second half.
Added: Kim from North Korea won the gold of the world in 91 at 11 (!) Years presumably. The investigation failed to establish her date of birth. But the medal was not taken away from her.

That's not true. A gymnast has to turn 16 by the end of the year to be eligible for senior competition. Even if they are born in December they can competet the whole year while being only 15. E.g. all gymnasts born in 2004 are eligible for Tokyo, some will still be 15 by the time the Olympics roll around, some will be 16 already. It's actually the same age limit as in Figure Skating, only that the Figure Skating year begins in July and not in January, so a skater has to turn 16 before June 30th, not December 31st.

 

[Vandevska]

My problem is that I do not think children should be elite, Olympic-level athletes. Children should absolutely do sports! They can even train intensively for junior competitions and to prepare themselves for a successful career once they have turned 18 and are considered an adult in the majority of the world.

Others such as flanker have disagreed and have said there is no reason to change the age limit. But I think the age limit should change to allow children to be children. Leave the stress of elite sports to adults.

All this other discussion about artistry, health, etc. has no bearing on my opinion here. A sport in which children are the best is a children's sport, and a "children's sport" should not be considered an elite sport. Elite athletes have the full-time job of being elite athletes. Children should not have full-time jobs.

Once they have turned 18? What? [emoji23][emoji28]

 

[Alex65]

That's not true. A gymnast has to turn 16 by the end of the year to be eligible for senior competition. Even if they are born in December they can competet the whole year while being only 15. E.g. all gymnasts born in 2004 are eligible for Tokyo, some will still be 15 by the time the Olympics roll around, some will be 16 already. It's actually the same age limit as in Figure Skating, only that the Figure Skating year begins in July and not in January, so a skater has to turn 16 before June 30th, not December 31st.

Perhaps my memory failed me here. Sorry. However, am I right about the reason raising age? If you follow gymnastics, you should know that. I just reproduced from memory the information from the articles I read earlier and, as you can see, I can forget something.

 

[colormyworld240]

My problem is that I do not think children should be elite, Olympic-level athletes. Children should absolutely do sports! They can even train intensively for junior competitions and to prepare themselves for a successful career once they have turned 18 and are considered an adult in the majority of the world.

Others such as flanker have disagreed and have said there is no reason to change the age limit. But I think the age limit should change to allow children to be children. Leave the stress of elite sports to adults.

All this other discussion about artistry, health, etc. has no bearing on my opinion here. A sport in which children are the best is a children's sport, and a "children's sport" should not be considered an elite sport. Elite athletes have the full-time job of being elite athletes. Children should not have full-time jobs.

But why? If they're already training for juniors intensively they are already elite level athletes. I mean look at Kamila and Alysa, I doubt they're training less than they would be if they were eligible and this was an Olympic year. What happens when someone turns 18? If you're not arguing for artistry health etc., then it's just an arbitrary number assigned as children are already competing in an elite sport, even if it's juniors. What's the difference between a 17 and 18 year olds', and how will setting the age limit at 18 allow children to be children? These careers are a result of disciplined training from a very young age. No skater is going to be able to magically skate like Hanyu at 18 if they haven't been working on it since they were at least 7. For elite skaters, the Olympics are a lifelong dream that they work on since they were very young, training at a high intensity level. All the current stars we see have been training at that level since way before they could be eligible for the Olympics, that's how they get to where they are now. Raising the age limit isn't going to prevent that, and all the stress will still be there. Plus, even if the age are raised to 18, they'd have to start training seriously many years before that, and have the same stress when they're still many years under 18, the limit would have to be much higher.

 

[colormyworld240]

I don't know if the cut-off should be as high as 18, but I agree that children are too young to have to deal with the kind of pressure skaters like Julia L or Alysa have to. I find it troubling that Alysa has to deal with detractors at her age and has to be adult enough to overcome that criticism at 14. I also question the extent to which many of these young superstars have the intrinsic motivation to push themselves to their limit like they must to get to the top. Despite what they are trained to say, these kids might be pressured by their parents to push past injuries beyond what we might know.

This is all true, but how will raising the age limit prevent this?

 

[Artemisa]

well... maybe that sound stupid ... but maybe this problem could be solve if the juniors could skate in the same GP than senior and not in a different GP... JGP don't have public or maybe even a good prize money ... if ISU could put a competition of best juniors ladies after JGP and other of seniors ladies in the same GP and give JLadies a good prize money maybe they didn't have the necessity to go seniors so early ...

 

[Mathman]

Well, Sonja Henie was 14 when she won worlds for the first time, and 15, when she won olympic games. So it's not much a change And there were others, Michelle Kwan won worlds for the first time at 15, Tara Lipinski at 14, Elaine Zayak won gold at 17, Katarina Witt was silver at 16 and so on....

Yes, certainly there have been many youthful champions in the past. And in any endeavor youngsters with precocious talent will come along.

What I was more interested in, though, was whether changes in the scoring system tilt the balance toward skills that children are naturally good at (or at least easily trained, compared to older competitors). Maybe rotating really fast in the air is just something that young bodies can learn to do and old bodies can't.

The current statistical evidence shows that the most number of quads for ladies can be achieved in age of 15 so far It seems girls of lesser age can't have enough stamina/muscle power to maintain such number of quads in one program.

I think that the evidence so far shows that no lady has started learning how to rotate four times in the air after age 15. Someone like Alexandra Trusova (a one-of-a-kind talent in any case) may be able to do more quads per program and to add other types of quads as she gets older. But so far, it looks like 13 or 14 at the latest is the time to begin.

This is what I mean by referring to this particular skill a young person's game.

But mybe not. Elizaveta Tuktamysheva mastered the triple Axel at a later age.

I guess we will have to wait and see how coaches respond. But it just seems to me, if I were a coach with a 12-year-old wiunderkind on my hands, that I would be tempted to look at the ISU Scale of Values, see: "Quad Lutz, 11.50 points," and take my cue from there. I am not saying whether that's good or bad, just that I believe that the sport will be different going forward.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

My problem is that I do not think children should be elite, Olympic-level athletes. Children should absolutely do sports! They can even train intensively for junior competitions and to prepare themselves for a successful career once they have turned 18 and are considered an adult in the majority of the world.

Age limit is just a social norm which society prescribe to forbid or allow people to do some things. You can have some adults rights after your 16 birthday, you can have some adults rights at 18, and you dont have some adults rights even untill 21. Those kind of things are just social norm and can vary from culture to culture and even from states to states in USA. But what science as biology and psychology are saying is that humans at the age of 16 have naturaly given equipment to be adults.

I don't know if the cut-off should be as high as 18, but I agree that children are too young to have to deal with the kind of pressure skaters like Julia L or Alysa have to. I find it troubling that Alysa has to deal with detractors at her age and has to be adult enough to overcome that criticism at 14. I also question the extent to which many of these young superstars have the intrinsic motivation to push themselves to their limit like they must to get to the top. Despite what they are trained to say, these kids might be pressured by their parents to push past injuries beyond what we might know.

I don't think that dealing with pressure (as many other things) is different at the age of 16 comparing to the age of 26. Gracie and Gabby were dealing with 'pressure' just fine at 16, and have some problems with it after their 18. Things you are saying may last to the end of adolescent years, in that form up untill 26, for sure. And every new period of human development will bring another forms of pressure. Some people are just better in competitive envirovement and some are not, but those 'types of personalities' are mainly organized in childs formative years.

To conclude (and i'm not advocating for TAT or RUS skating federation's opinion - I read they think the same as i do LOL), but taking in the consideration some of biological and psychological facts i'm aware of, the only reasonable cutoff i see is 'after 16 birthday', a year later than current rules are saying i think, and which is a norm in many other sports too eace:

 

[flanker]

Even pairs don't require such level of physical form - because ladies in pairs need to do only couple of jumps themselves. Therefore they can have more longer careers as part of workload is shared with their partner. I am not implying that pairs is easier discipline btw. But it certainly have less specific requirements in relation to body build, leg muscles elasticity, weight, height and stamina.

But partners may have requirements to body build of the lady, smaller and lighter lady is easied to throw and twist

 

[Mathman]

A sport in which children are the best is a children's sport, and a "children's sport" should not be considered an elite sport. Elite athletes have the full-time job of being elite athletes. Children should not have full-time jobs.

It's tricky. In a way, all sports are "children's sports." What adult would spend his time kicking a ball around the playground or trying to throw it through a hoop? What adult would be consumed by bragging, "nyah, nyah, I can run faster than you!"

(Actually, I think there is an answer to those questions. We like doing recreational sports precisely because it takes us back to our childhood. :yes: )

 

[Baron Vladimir]

I guess we will have to wait and see how coaches respond. But it just seems to me, if I were a coach with a 12-year-old wiunderkind on my hands, that I would be tempted to look at the ISU Scale of Values, see: "Quad Lutz, 11.50 points," and take my cue from there. I am not saying whether that's good or bad, just that I believe that the sport will be different going forward.

Why would you? Sinitsyna scored more points than Alysa without quad lutz and 3As, so.. The point of the current system is just to find skaters biggest strenghts and work on that. If you can produce a quad even better, but not for any cost

 

[moriel]

Thank you for your thoughts.

With regard to age limits, I cannot agree that it is "healthier" to keep a lower age limit because skaters might injure themselves if they train longer. That is a head scratcher for me.

All professional sports in the US have age limits. Many young phenoms could play pro at an earlier age. They risk injury, and the loss of a *far* larger payday than any skater will ever earn, by being forced to wait until they are 18 to turn pro (the lowest age I know of, some are 19). That's not a reason to lower the age.

Many men, pairs and dance skaters compete for many many years. Are the ladies such hothouse flowers that they cannot skate for the same amount of years? I think not.

I know that the analogies only work if one agrees with the argument, so I'm not going to speak to them. I agree with my own argument, so they work for me

For me, the longer you train, the more you injure yourself is pretty obvious, honestly, but I will draw it just in case.
1. There is a certain injury risk. Do you agree that the chance of breaking a leg jumping is higher if you jump 1000 times and lower if you jump only 10 times? The longer you train and compete on elite level, more injuries you will have overall.
2. Healing gets worse with age, things take longer to heal, things don't heal perfectly anymore. It is a major difference to break a bone at 14-15 and break a bone at 25. And break a bone at 35.
3. Injury effect is cumulative, so having tons of small injuries is not nice either. The longer you skate/train, more small injuries you will have.

So, where the age limit comes into all this? To be successful in FS, skaters got to start training early, regardless of the age limit. If you raise it from 15 to 18, you basically force skaters to skate on elite level for 3 extra years before they can even achieve anything. Right now, they can win stuff at 15-16-17-18 and quit. With higher age limit, they will *have to* skate up to 18 in juniors, on elite level (because it is not like they would be able to take it easier in juniors, just because they are juniors), before they can compete on major international events. This is 3 more years for them to break bones and strain backs.

And again, the only way those 3 extra years in juniors will protect the junior's health is by forcing them to quit because no big results and expensive training. The ones that stay will train as hard as they currently do.

So i see it like this: raising the age limit has no relation with health, because they will still train on elite level (same as current juniors do, i mean, do you really think that Liu is training in a much healthier way than girls who are 18 years old right now, and being in junior somehow magically protects her health? Does it really makes any difference that she is a junior and not a senior? Would it make any difference for Trusova if she would be a junior this year? She wouldn't be training quads as a junior?). But it has the potential to damage more skater's health by forcing them to skate longer. Result: higher age limit = bad for health.

 

[gkelly]

Aside from the physical demands of elite training and competition, which may be similar at either junior or senior level, I think the idea is that the psychological demands of senior competition are much higher. Seniors who compete at Worlds, Euros/4Cs, Grand Prix, or Olympics may be watched by many millions of viewers on video and by many thousands in a packed arena. Those who have some success will likely be featured and hyped by media in their home countries, expected by fans as well as federations to bring home medals, keep or earn more spots for next year and to make more and more media appearances. (And also more likely to attract rabid fans/stalkers/bullying detractors -- though ideally no skater of any age would have to deal with that.)

Skaters competing at junior level tend to have a much more low-key, under-the-radar experience. I think the idea is that lower expectations and lower demands outside of the actual training is more conducive to youngsters' mental health.

What I was more interested in, though, was whether changes in the scoring system tilt the balance toward skills that children are naturally good at (or at least easily trained, compared to older competitors). Maybe rotating really fast in the air is just something that young bodies can learn to do and old bodies can't.

Yes, that generally seems to be the case.

Although 17- or 25-year-old bodies aren't "old" in the same way that middle-aged and geriatric bodies are.

And in fact 17- or 25-year-old men tend to be better jumpers than 13- or 14-year-old boys, probably because broader shoulders and more developed musculature that come naturally from maturing and training from a boy to a young man are just as useful for jumping as a narrow circumference. Although it is true that some men, including highly fit skaters who were strong jumpers as juniors, do just grow too big in height and/or width to jump as efficiently as adults.

But on average, probably a majority of male skaters jump better at 20 than at 15. Whereas a majority of women do not. Because the mature female body is less conducive to in-air rotation than either the early adolescent female body or the adult male body.

There are, of course, always exceptions. But does the sport want to build its requirements around exceptions and leave no space for the majority of elite-track girls to remain competitive as they become young women?

I think that the evidence so far shows that no lady has started learning how to rotate four times in the air after age 15.

When did Elizabet Tursynbaeva learn her quad?

Elizaveta Tuktamysheva mastered the triple Axel at a later age.

Didn't she start working on it when she was around 12?

I guess we will have to wait and see how coaches respond. But it just seems to me, if I were a coach with a 12-year-old wiunderkind on my hands, that I would be tempted to look at the ISU Scale of Values, see: "Quad Lutz, 11.50 points," and take my cue from there. I am not saying whether that's good or bad, just that I believe that the sport will be different going forward.

Which is why I would love to build more options into the Scale of Values and let coaches see which options work best for each individual skater.