Are we watching skating… or just our faves?

[Mathman]

Normalization of aggressive online behavior.

As, for instance, poor me.

We have divided into two tribes. Tribe 1 comprises skating fans whose interest is in one (or a few) chosen favorite(s). Tribe 2 consists of skating fans who cast their net more broadly. Membership in one tribe or the other does not confer moral superiority -- we are all friends here and people of good will together.

Myself, I have been a card-carrying member of tribe 2 for decades. Now, because I am deemed nsufficiently hostile to tribe 1, I find myself expelled from tribe 2 and left to wander into the jungle and lick my wounds. And I am not even allowed the consolation of saying, "oh well, I guess that's just human nature."

 

[Diana Delafield]

As, for instance, poor me.

We have divided into two tribes. Tribe 1 comprises skating fans whose interest is in one (or a few) chosen favorite(s). Tribe 2 consists of skating fans who cast their net more broadly. Membership in one tribe or the other does not confer moral superiority -- we are all friends here and people of good will together.

Myself, I have been a card-carrying member of tribe 2 for decades. Now, because I am deemed nsufficiently hostile to tribe 1, I find myself expelled from tribe 2 and left to wander into the jungle and lick my wounds. And I am not even allowed the consolation of saying, oh well, I guess that's just human nature.

`

 

[Anna K.]

As, for instance, poor me.

We have divided into two tribes. Tribe 1 comprises skating fans whose interest is in one (or a few) chosen favorite(s). Tribe 2 consists of skating fans who cast their net more broadly. Membership in one tribe or the other does not confer moral superiority -- we are all friends here and people of good will together.

Myself, I have been a card-carrying member of tribe 2 for decades. Now, because I am deemed nsufficiently hostile to tribe 1, I find myself expelled from tribe 2 and left to wander into the jungle and lick my wounds. And I am not even allowed the consolation of saying, "oh well, I guess that's just human nature."

 

[Arigato]

I don't think blaming tribalism for anything going on with the sport of figure skating is the answer.
Try seeing the world in colors, rather than black and white.

Humans are not "tribal"

From politics to culture, we blame “tribalism” for humanity’s problems. This explanation is entirely wrong.

bigthink.com

 

[yfan1]

From the link above:

This classifying capacity starts with babies. By nine months of age, infants’ heart rates go up when they see strangers. But what counts as a “stranger” depends on who the infant has seen, heard, and interacted with previously. Their reactions are structured not only by what people look like, but on social context and experience. Infants classify and respond primarily to actions more than faces or colors or other markers, and especially preferentially to one kind of action: niceness.

Not all that different from what Mathman cites in #75.

Beyond it, I'm not sure what the discussion has transformed to. Are we really using evolutionary (mal)explanations and sociological/anthropological ones to... explain skating fans.

I think the easiest explanation for 'nastiness' in skating is that social media is largely an escape from your daily life so people use it as a venting ground.

And I think the easiest solution to avoid that is by using the handy block feature.

 

[Arigato]

I'm not sure what the discussion has transformed to.

Every post above yours has the answer. It's not that hard to find the word they all have in common.

 

[Mathman]

Here's the thing.

Babies like people who look like their mothers. Humans are generally considered to be more similar to chimpanzees than to dragonsfies. Many people (for better or for worse) are patriotic, many cherish their religious traditions, in sports many exult in school spirit or home team loyalty.

These are examples of statements that are utterly without controversy -- indeed, they boroingly banal, if not vacuous. There is nothing in such statements that can possibly incite anyone to argumentative, pugilistic reaction -- right?

 

[Arigato]

What is the reason for Tribe claims in this sport? In this very forum someone thanked a member for stepping outside their "pack" to answer them about something. Yes, the word pack was used. The irony is, Mathman actually objected to their use of the word "pack" as in a pack of dogs or, say, a herd of cattle would be the equivalent. But out of nowhere we're now all tribal animals? Is there a reason someone lacks common knowledge of solitary animals, such as jaguars and tigers? How about a house cat? "Yo, mister house cat where is your tribe?"

Now we're back to chimps again, animals who live in large communities. We are not all tribal animals, nor care to be. If you want to talk chimps, talk chimps. But don't pretend it's a solid argument for anything as ridiculous as we're all tribal. Frankly, I find it as absurd as claiming all humans are "god-fearing people." Again, an assumption true of some but far from true for all or even many.

And finally, this is a discussion forum not an echo chamber. Just because someone disagrees with a claim doesn't make them argumentative or pugilistic. At some point one has to realize everyone can see things differently. It's a choice. And that's okay. But what isn't okay is claiming something is true of all people simply because it's your own personal belief or personal value.

 

[Mathman]

^ Identification with a "tribe" or group plays a role in human behavior. Why is that such a threatening observation? Sometimes individuals manage to swim against the stream of peer pressure. Good for them. What is there to fight about?

As for figure skating, if a fan wants to cheer for a particular favorite, OK. If a fan wants to cheer for many skaters and/or for figure skating general... OK.

What could possibly be more mild pablum than that? Yet here we are, hot under the collar and posting in hostile tone to each other. I don't get it. I don't enjoy it. Maybe we should blame the Internet.

 

[Anna K.]

^ Identification with a "tribe" or group

Then may you please use the word "group"?

"Tribe" is covertly racist towards indigenous people.

As, for instance, poor me.

Regarding your "I am but a harmless teddy-bear, why can't I play with whatever toys make me happy in my sandbox" narrative: you may be harmless but your toys may be not.

 

[Anna K.]

And I am not even allowed the consolation of saying, "oh well, I guess that's just human nature."

Maybe it's a bad idea but I'll try to explain.

When you say "all of whatever group are" - you understand that you are asking for trouble, right? Because you are stereotyping. Not all of the group are like that. So a decent part of the group will feel offended or annoyed - depending if this is a negative or a positive stereotype.

When stereotype an even larger group saying i.e. "all women are" - then the number of possibly offended or annoyed is much bigger, right? It's math.

Then you stereotype the whole humanity. Thoughts?


And by the way, no. This forum has not divided in two fronts and there is no hostile posting against each other on the grounds of how many skaters each one follows. Right, that's the edition of this forum that I have on my screen after applying the available technical means. But it works.

 

[Mathman]

Now we're back to chimps again...

There seems to be a misunderstanding of the chimps thing. The point was not that humans are like chimpanzees but rather that (somewhat to our surprise) chimpanzees turned out to be more like humans than we had thought.

"Everybody knows" that human history is strewn with wars pitting one nation or tribe against another. Chimpanzees were widely regarded (by those few people who thought about them at all) as friendly, funny, fuzzy, happy-go-lucky denizens of the forest, going merrily on with their friendly, fuzzy, happy-go-lucky lives.

When Chimpophile Jane Goodall chronicled tribal warfare among the subjects she was studying in Tanzania in the 1970s, this was an eye-opener. (Goodall also was the first to report on tool-using among this species.) Chimps turned out to be more like people than we suspected.

Yes, Tigers are solitary animals. They don't form tribes to gang up on each other. I do not think that this observation holds any lesson for humans or for skating fans.

As for inflammatory language like "Skater X fans act like a pack of wild animals," no, that ia not useful. Our goal should be ever to expand the boundaries of our tribe and take in more and more fellow skating enthusiasts of diverse persuations.

 

[Mathman]

When you say "all of whatever group are" - you understand that you are asking for trouble, right? Because you are stereotyping.

No. I am poking fun at such silly stereotyping attitudes."The phrase "all-of-y'all" is a humorous caricature of a slangy way to twist the pronoun "you."

More seriously, the trouble with stereotypes that every "stereotype" has its representatives and its exceptions. That is just common sense and common observation. It is not a call to battle.

 

[Anna K.]

No. I am poking fun at such silly stereotyping attitudes."The phrase "all-of-y'all" is a humorous caricature of a slangy way to twist the pronoun "you."

More seriously, the trouble with stereotypes that every "stereotype" has its representatives and its exceptions. That is just common sense and common observation. It is not a call to battle.

Well, it works as a call for a battle.
It doesn't matter if it wasn't meant to be or if it was "but an ironic quote" (as people later explain it in court).

It's math. If your twisted pronoun is exposed to a big number of random people, some of them will read the message directly. Just saying.

 

[yfan1]

It sincerely seems ridiculous to me to steer a conversation straight into comparisons about figure skating fans versus sexist/misogynist/racist stereotypes.

 

[Arigato]

^ Identification with a "tribe" or group plays a role in human behavior. Why is that such a threatening observation? Sometimes individuals manage to swim against the stream of peer pressure. Good for them. What is there to fight about?

Who is fighting? No one.

Identification with a tribe or group can play a role in some people's behavior. No one said it couldn't. You seem to have a problem with merely using the word "some" which would then make your statement accurate.

Yet here we are, hot under the collar and posting in hostile tone to each other. I don't get it. I don't enjoy it. Maybe we should blame the Internet.

I don't see anyone hot under the collar or posting in a hostile tone. I bet if everyone in the thread suddenly agreed with every post you made the accusations of people "posting in a hostile tone" would suddenly disappear.

On a side note: How is it I laugh my ass off watching CSG and BoP debate and never even think of the word "hostile" while I read their posts?

Food for thought.

 

[noskates]

Holey Moley this thread took a wrong turn.

 

[Mathman]

Holey Moley this thread took a wrong turn.

It has. I apologize for my role in this development..

To return to the benign topic of the OP (Do "we" watch figure skating for the sake of a particular favorite or because of interest in figure skating in general?) -- Without overanalyzing "we," my own personal view is: "Big house. Make room for everybody."

[Edit: Although, I just re-read the OP to refresh my memory and could not help noticing the enumerate sub-contexts: personal attacks, hater behavior, fan wars.]

 

[Arigato]

Yes, Tigers are solitary animals. They don't form tribes to gang up on each other. I do not think that this observation holds any lesson for humans or for skating fans.

Don't make value judgments for others. Make them for yourself.

Skaters have in fact been getting ganged up on this season by very specific groups of people online. One in particular, viciously so - still associating him with a "tribe" they actually believe he belongs to that is at odds with the "tribe" they belong to. This insidious "tribal" behavior isn't really seen in jaguars or tigers, now is it? When have you seen a group of solitary animals get together to bring harm to another? You call a group of individuals a tribe but in this case I call it a mob. Mob psychology is alive and well in the sport of skating and it certainly isn't inconsistent with some other observations made by the OP which obviously led them to make this thread to begin with. Why some are ignoring the OP's bullet points in the post and simply looking at the title of the thread is rather peculiar and an exercise in avoidance. It's okay to discuss what is actually going on.

As for inflammatory language like "Skater X fans act like a pack of wild animals," no, that ia not useful. Our goal should be ever to expand the boundaries of our tribe and take in more and more fellow skating enthusiasts of diverse persuations.

There is no "our goal" there is merely your goal. My goal could be at complete odds with yours or Betty's or Bob's. "Our tribe" doesn't even exist no matter how many times you repost it.

 

[TallyT]

This all seems to have gotten wildly and has pretty much proven that people don't have to be 'stans' and following a 'fave' to dogpile with the best of teenage tiktokers when someone says something They Don't Approve Of, no matter how innocuously phrased.
Back to point at issue...

skating is not like most other sports. It is absolutely normal both to have favourites in any field with an individualistic/personalised/artistic side (I mean, I have favourite musicians, favourite authors, favourite actors, does that mean I am expected to give equal notice to a whole lot of others in those fields who don't do it for me?) and to find others lacking in the things that made us connect. There are and have been successful skaters - no names - who I find totally uninteresting and/or offputting to the point where I could quite literally rather watch blowfly racing (and I do not apologise for it, as a spectator I have NO responsibility to support people who offer what I do not want).

If they had been the one on the original youtube video that caught my wandering attention years ago, I wouldn't have given figure skating another second instead of the {mumbledy but jawdropping} amount of my life I have and happily still do. I watch in passing quite a lot of skaters who I like, and some that am only mildly partial to but wouldn't exactly go looking for a whole competition's worth. Just like I used to buy albums of 'greatest hits!!' and just listen to the songs I wanted. We do not have to love the sport as a whole, we do not have to love it at all (and let's be honest the ISU and feds do their best to turn people off.)

There is no right way to be a fan (that doesn't mean there are not wrong ones, but they involve the sort of acts and stuff that is wrong in anything from family to the internet to whatever, and Miss Manners has been complaining about them for yonks.) The dictum that there is a purist's path is one of the absolute worst aspects of 21st century fandom anywhere and everywhere.