2019-20 U.S. Men's Figure Skating

[skatergurl7]

Perplexing. There's a discussion going on about great Schindler's Lists above me and people are mentioning Yulia and Satoko? I've seen a large variety of misspellings of Joshua before but those really take the cake.

Much as I already love Jason's, Joshua's is still the gold standard for me. Now there was a program worthy of 94 PCS. And he even did a quad in it to keep people happy. (By the way, he only got 84 PCS for the perfect 4CCs performance. Now there's a crime of scoring.)

To be honest I never watched his program until now because he was never a top contender. What happened to him? great potential

 

[karne]

To be honest I never watched his program until now because he was never a top contender. What happened to him? great potential

Was never a top contender? He and Jason battled for National titles since they were eleven. He was JWC silver medalist in 2012, JWC in 2013, landed his first quad in 2012 (back when it was much rarer for junior men), won the pewter medal at 2013 US Nationals (should have been bronze), won the pewter medal in 2014, won the bronze medal in 2015 (would have won it all if he could count...), won silver at 4CCs in 2015...

...and then suffered three concussions in three weeks during the ensuing off-season and never skated competitively again. Retirement announced in July 2016. Comeback announced in early 2017. Discovery of brain damage causing back injury later that year. Gofundme to get therapy for his eyes and brain in 2018. Now he coaches. But he will likely never skate competitively - maybe not even in shows - ever again.

To say that I then proceeded to freak out when it came out Jason had concussion was an understatement.

 

[Jammers]

Was never a top contender? He and Jason battled for National titles since they were eleven. He was JWC silver medalist in 2012, JWC in 2013, landed his first quad in 2012 (back when it was much rarer for junior men), won the pewter medal at 2013 US Nationals (should have been bronze), won the pewter medal in 2014, won the bronze medal in 2015 (would have won it all if he could count...), won silver at 4CCs in 2015...

...and then suffered three concussions in three weeks during the ensuing off-season and never skated competitively again. Retirement announced in July 2016. Comeback announced in early 2017. Discovery of brain damage causing back injury later that year. Gofundme to get therapy for his eyes and brain in 2018. Now he coaches. But he will likely never skate competitively - maybe not even in shows - ever again.

To say that I then proceeded to freak out when it came out Jason had concussion was an understatement.

Josh not being able to skate competitively ever again was such a bummer. He was just coming into his own as a Senior skater and think with his trajectory he would probably be the US number 2 man right now if he stayed healthy. He might have mastered multiple quads by now and the quality of his skating was so superior to Vincent that he would beat him even with just one quad and i think he would have challenged Jason on PCS and with a better 3axel and quad he would have been hard to beat for that 2nd spot.

 

[Tavi...]

I honestly don't see how this was being offensive or over the top.

I mean, there's been people describing Nathan's posture as terrible and having a hunched back, his skating as being choppy and too stiff in the knees, the way he looks in his costumes has been compared to tour bus seats, traffic cones, a penguin and other types of black and white animals, lacking an arm, they've been criticised for not being flashy and costume-y enough = not making an effort... the list goes on and on.

But the moment someone dares to say an unflattering thing about darling Jason, it gets equated with spreading negativity.
(and before you object to my use of words again, yes, I'm being partly sarcastic here, but it's also true, because he is a darling)

I'm genuinely just trying to describe what I see or what image pops up in my mind.
You may object to the vivid imagery, but how is being reminded of a tent construction a sign of negativity? (but bus seat comparisons are fine I guess...)
Adjectives such as 'splayed out' or 'bent' are not some scathing insults, they're just descriptive of a certain shape, albeit not a flattering one for a skater.
Saying that something is 'incredibly unattractive to me' is not a a nice thing to say, obviously, but I made sure not to use derogatory words such as 'terrible' or 'ugly'.

(But yes, you're right in that I am hypercritical. But that applies to every skater, even Nathan, believe it or not.)

I personally don’t see much difference between saying something is “incredibly unattractive” and that it’s “terrible” or “ugly.” If you told a good friend that her appearance or dress or movement were incredibly unattractive, don’t you think she’d find it derogatory? I know I would. And that’s why I don’t like hearing those kind of comments about Jason. That’s why you don’t like it when someone says Nathan has “hunched” posture. They’re not nice things to say. This isn’t a fan thread, so you can’t expect total positivity. But tone is just as important on the Internet as it is IRL, and I wish more people would try to remember it. And when someone criticizes your favorite? How does it make things better if you respond by being even more critical of someone else? It just perpetuates the problem.

If you think it’s not okay to criticize Jason around here, maybe it’s because over the years a lot of us Jason fans have gotten tired of hearing people criticize him for his lack of quads, his programs, his costumes, his choreography, his hair, his behavior in the kiss n cry, his demeanor, etc etc etc. So some of us do respond when people continue to criticize him. Most of us try to do so politely, and try not to attack other skaters in the process. I can’t say we’re always successful at being polite or that all of us refrain from attacking others. But most of us do try. And if you look at my post 223 you’ll see that I don’t think people should be criticizing Nathan for having a “hunch” either. In my view nobody should be attacking any skater here.

Really, this used to be a fun thread. It no longer is. I don’t know what happened. But I wish it could go back to being a place to have stimulating discussions about all the US men.

 

[1111bm]

And when someone criticizes your favorite? How does it make things better if you respond by being even more critical of someone else? It just perpetuates the problem.

I'm afraid you didn't get my point at all. I was using Nathan as an example to demonstrate how fans of another skater didn't feel as offended by comments that pointed out a flaw, ridiculed their fave's costume or criticised a certain aspect of his presentation or style. And how they didn't call out the critics on their words and instead simply offered their view on the topic in response. Some of the more entertaining comments even get embraced, such as the bus seat or penguin comparison.


There's a general vibe that you can't criticise certain aspects about certain skaters, such as Jason’s presentation, which seems to be universally accepted and lauded as aesthetically pleasing and accomplished. I mean, I've seen people apologise for daring to criticise Jason's SL program, I assume because they were aware that their opinion went against the general consensus and their comment wouldn’t be welcome.
Yes we can complain about all kinds of other things, even beat that dead horse aka the missing quad, but artistry and performance are Jason’s brand, so you better not touch that.

Also, in the same way that jumps are viewed as a deficiency of Jason and it's somehow 'ok' to criticise him for that, it's also usually implied that artistry is a weak area of someone like Nathan and therefore it's acceptable to complain about something like his posture.
So yeah, in a way I was trying to turn the tables and point out something that I genuinely perceive as a flaw in Jason's presentation for once, because you rarely hear anyone complain about that part of Jason's skating.

I personally don’t see much difference between saying something is “incredibly unattractive” and that it’s “terrible” or “ugly.” If you told a good friend that her appearance or dress or movement were incredibly unattractive, don’t you think she’d find it derogatory? I know I would.

Actually this is pretty much how I would phrase it when talking to a friend. Obviously only when talking about things a person can change about themselves and that are not an insecurity of theirs. And I would also describe which aspects exactly I don’t like.
Who knows, maybe this comes down to cultural differences. From what I've heard Anglo-American people are not as straightforward and blunt with their words as people are in most parts of West and East Europe, which notoriously leads to friction.

 

[moonvine]

The poster I was replying to was talking about SP when he has this shirt and vest combo. The bunching up issues strangely look worse than when he was wearing the costume at JO.

The tour bus inspired free skate costume has two side hooks to keep it from riding up. IIrc, similar hooks were added to the Vera Wang white smoke after the nationals to keep it riding up during performances. That is why we didn’t see anything similar to what happened during nats at either worlds or WTT.
See this footage from WTT
https://twitter.com/snk_tc/status/1116678829903208448?s=20

Don’t know if it is mom’s idea after the incident at Nats. She was with him at the time, and replaced the original orange traffic cone costume with the white smoke one.

Now knowing mom made the costume, I just couldn’t help admiring Nathan’s sense of humor when acknowledging the idea was inspired by the tour bus seat. He had this IG story about it right after JO, probably getting the picture or discussion from Jackie

https://twitter.com/aboutNathan0505/status/1181271724127588353?s=20

Sorry. I pay little attention to costumes as a general rule, other than "oh that dress is so pretty, I would love to wear it." Since I'm not *probably* not going to long to wear any men's costume, I only paid attention because people were complaining (I thought about the psychodelic one). I was at Nationals this year and the one I am thinking of kept riding up and exposing his midriff and he kept yanking it down and it was distracting me from the program. Don't know if it was Vera Wang or not; I know she has made some of his costumes.

 

[el henry]

I'm afraid you didn't get my point at all. I was using Nathan as an example to demonstrate how fans of another skater didn't feel as offended by comments that pointed out a flaw, ridiculed their fave's costume or criticised a certain aspect of his presentation or style. And how they didn't call out the critics on their words and instead simply offered their view on the topic in response. Some of the more entertaining comments even get embraced, such as the bus seat or penguin comparison.

I don't want to speak for @Tavi, but I think it fell flat because frankly, Jason's fans are a pretty accepting and cool bunch of folks ETA: much like Nathan’s fans, I am sure, or any other general group of fans, who embrace entertaining comments about topics like bowling shirts, so the thesis seems unprovable..

Can you point for example to a post that was meant in fun where I did not take it in the intended spirit? Can you point to specific posts that you think were meant in fun where another poster did not take it in the spirit in which it was intended, so I can judge for myself?

There's a general vibe that you can't criticise certain aspects about certain skaters, such as Jason’s presentation, which seems to be universally accepted and lauded as aesthetically pleasing and accomplished. I mean, I've seen people apologise for daring to criticise Jason's SL program, I assume because they were aware that their opinion went against the general consensus and their comment wouldn’t be welcome.
Yes we can complain about all kinds of other things, even beat that dead horse aka the missing quad, but artistry and performance are Jason’s brand, so you better not touch that.

Could you please give examples of posts where you believe that certain aspects of Jason's skating cannot be criticized?

I have not seen that at all, at least in this forum. General statements like "there is a general vibe" or "some people" do not prove any point, so I would like to see links to specific posts. Thanks.

For example, I certainly would disagree with a poster who wanted to criticize Jason's skating skills or presentation in this performance of Schindler's List because I would find such criticism to be unfounded and untrue based on what Jason put out on the ice and I would describe why I thought so. So I would like to see what posts you are referring to so I can read to determine for myself if it is a result of a "general vibe" or of that poster's honestly held belief.

Also, I cannot find any posts where someone apologizes for criticizing SL. Could you please point the out to me? And could you please point out in that post what you think supports your assumption that any such language is based on a feeling that the comment wouldn’t be welcome? Thanks

 

[Tahuu]

It's early in the season. Here're the scores of the US men.

Nathan 299.09
Jason 255.09
Vincent 231.95
Alexei 230.11
Camden 216.25
Tomoki 214.82
Jimmy 213.49

Jason has a great chance to return to the GPF with the silver at SA. Aside from Yuzu his main competitor at NHK is Kevin Aymoz. With 2 silvers he is almost guaranteed to get in. Even if 2+3, he still has a good chance to get in.

 

[TontoK]

I'm really not certain why people are fighting over the quality of Jason's Schindler's List program. It all seems fairly straightforward to me.

Is it the greatest thing to ever grace the ice? No, at least not yet.

It's the first outing of the year. He's recovering from a serious injury that has kept him off the ice and interrupted his training to such an extent that he had to disappoint fans by withdrawing from competition... and he seems to me to be one of those athletes that hates to disappoint his fans. I did think there were parts of the performance that seemed tentative and less free. The PCS weren't a disgrace, and I'm sure they'll improve.

All of this is understandable. I think he is to be commended, and I'm by no stretch his biggest fan.

But, I'll tell you what, with mileage and feedback, this program can be an artistic masterpiece. It can be something really really special.

Will that come to pass? Time will tell, but my money is on "yes."

 

[Tavi...]

I'm afraid you didn't get my point at all. I was using Nathan as an example to demonstrate how fans of another skater didn't feel as offended by comments that pointed out a flaw, ridiculed their fave's costume or criticised a certain aspect of his presentation or style. And how they didn't call out the critics on their words and instead simply offered their view on the topic in response. Some of the more entertaining comments even get embraced, such as the bus seat or penguin comparison.


There's a general vibe that you can't criticise certain aspects about certain skaters, such as Jason’s presentation, which seems to be universally accepted and lauded as aesthetically pleasing and accomplished. I mean, I've seen people apologise for daring to criticise Jason's SL program, I assume because they were aware that their opinion went against the general consensus and their comment wouldn’t be welcome.
Yes we can complain about all kinds of other things, even beat that dead horse aka the missing quad, but artistry and performance are Jason’s brand, so you better not touch that.

Also, in the same way that jumps are viewed as a deficiency of Jason and it's somehow 'ok' to criticise him for that, it's also usually implied that artistry is a weak area of someone like Nathan and therefore it's acceptable to complain about something like his posture.
So yeah, in a way I was trying to turn the tables and point out something that I genuinely perceive as a flaw in Jason's presentation for once, because you rarely hear anyone complain about that part of Jason's skating.


Actually this is pretty much how I would phrase it when talking to a friend. Obviously only when talking about things a person can change about themselves and that are not an insecurity of theirs. And I would also describe which aspects exactly I don’t like.
Who knows, maybe this comes down to cultural differences. From what I've heard Anglo-American people are not as straightforward and blunt with their words as people are in most parts of West and East Europe, which notoriously leads to friction.

It’s not that I didn’t get your point, it’s that you didn’t make it, and now you’re starting to morph your arguments. Your last post simply began with a litany of the criticism that Nathan has received - you never said that Nathan fans let criticism roll happily off their backs, as compared to those overly sensitive Jason fans - and fortunate for you that you didn’t, because in fact, it’s not even true. See, e.g., post 550 in the Skate America Mens FS thread and some of the conversation that follows.

I also think you have the wrong idea about Jason’s presentation being above criticism. In fact, his presentation has been very much criticized. Some of my favorites include Johnny and Tara’s 2015 criticism of him as a “choreographed” (ie fake and second-rate) artist compared to Josh Farris, and the many people who complained about his Piano FS that his spirals were excessive and reminded them of a dog urinating on a fire hydrant. Honestly, your splayed finger criticism pales before those, so there’s really no need for you to make an effort to turn the tables on Jason - others have already done the good work on your behalf.

As to cultural differences, maybe you’re right that’s the issue. Not sure where you’re from. But as someone raised in the US by European (not Anglo) parents, who has lived and worked in multi cultural environments for pretty much her whole life, I can’t think of anyone I know well who would easily and happily accept being told he or she is incredibly unattractive. If you truly don’t understand why your comments would be perceived as offensive, that’s something you might want to keep in mind. Cheers.

 

[chanchan]

Josh is my favorite american figure skater.
just perfect.

- - - Updated - - -

Josh is my favorite american figure skater.
just perfect.

 

[medoroa]

Could you please give examples of posts where you believe that certain aspects of Jason's skating cannot be criticized?

I usually respect your comment on this forum, but this whole debacle blew up to what it is because bonita said she thinks Jason's hands are unappealing. Your own comment here seems confrontational and like an example of what you're asking for examples of, to me!

Also, I cannot find any posts where someone apologizes for criticizing SL. Could you please point the out to me? And could you please point out in that post what you think supports your assumption that any such language is based on a feeling that the comment wouldn’t be welcome? Thanks

Here you go, it's from as early as yesterday and comes complete with a "sorry":

Full disclosure - I didn't want to see another Schindler's list, because I feel it doesn't belong in entertainment.

I like Jason, usually, but I did not enjoy this program. The music choice felt gimmicky, and the tech needs to improve. JMHO (Sorry!)

I do actually agree with bonita that skating fandom tends to decide on a "correct opinion" for certain skaters which are then considered the "norm" without much scrutiny. So and so is not artistic. So and so has the best SS. So and so does no transitions. It's an echo chamber and a bit tiresome. So is this current discussion, granted, but I understand why bonita is frustrated and felt the need to address it.

For what it's worth I've always felt Nathan was artistc. He received good PCS as a junior, but then spent some years focusing on jumps because for better or worse, TES influences PCS in the minds of the judges. It's a common, normal strategy. It's not unusual for young up-and-comers to beat the old guard with TES, get criticized for not being "artistic", and then a few years down the line they too get beaten by younger skaters' TES... and then the fandom complains because that new skater isn't artistic, the old skater is much better! Medvedeva, Hanyu, Nathan, they all went through this or will go through this.

 

[eterialskater]

Nathan has great posture, also musical, has great SS and has excellent jumping technique and difficulty. Most importantly he is competitive. Why are some people still comparing him to a skater who has been a mere sideshow each time he manages to qualify to GPF and Worlds.

 

[el henry]

I usually respect your comment on this forum, but this whole debacle blew up to what it is because bonita said she thinks Jason's hands are unappealing. Your own comment here seems confrontational and like an example of what you're asking for examples of, to me!

Here you go, it's from as early as yesterday and comes complete with a "sorry":

I do actually agree with bonita that skating fandom tends to decide on a "correct opinion" for certain skaters which are then considered the "norm" without much scrutiny. So and so is not artistic. So and so has the best SS. So and so does no transitions. It's an echo chamber and a bit tiresome. So is this current discussion, granted, but I understand why bonita is frustrated and felt the need to address it.

For what it's worth I've always felt Nathan was artistc. He received good PCS as a junior, but then spent some years focusing on jumps because for better or worse, TES influences PCS in the minds of the judges. It's a common, normal strategy. It's not unusual for young up-and-comers to beat the old guard with TES, get criticized for not being "artistic", and then a few years down the line they too get beaten by younger skaters' TES... and then the fandom complains because that new skater isn't artistic, the old skater is much better! Medvedeva, Hanyu, Nathan, they all went through this or will go through this.

Thank you for supplying the post and for your comment. (The quote is not appearing on my iPad, oh well)

I wasn’t trying to be confrontational. Personally I find generalizations about a fandom to be very unhelpful. If someone generalizes about Jason fans, I’m a Jason fan, and I’m going to think, boy does that apply to me? So I want to know, what is it based on? Something I said or someone else said? And I try to be polite about it (I have asked the same questions for other skaters and in other threads, and usually I get no answers). So I know how to answer and whether there’s an issue I can address.

I don’t think it helps to address an unknown and unprovable generalization, because how do you do that?

And I’m really glad you supplied the post (thanks again) because it helps. I certainly don’t want to speak for Casual, but in no way read that post as oh dear heavens I better not say a bad thing about Jason or some evil posters will attack me and I don’t read the Sorry as a real apology.

FWIW, I think Nathan has improved his artistry greatly, I do not think he was artistic when he first became a senior, I think going away to college is the best thing that ever happened to his skating and I hope he stays there until the Olys because I like this Nathan better.

But Jason’s transitions in these programs and skating skills in these programs (Skate America) were, IMO, superior. That’s my opinion. And someone may agree or disagree, but I don’t think it should be dismissed as I’m following some company line

 

[fzztsimmons]

Nathan has great posture, also musical, has great SS and has excellent jumping technique and difficulty. Most importantly he is competitive. Why are some people still comparing him to a skater who has been a mere sideshow each time he manages to qualify to GPF and Worlds.

This is so rude. Regardless of technical capability, these are world class athletes who dedicate themselves to training for hours a day, every day, putting all aspects of their life on hold. The idea that someone is just a "sideshow" because they don't have quad jumps is disrespectful. If that's the case, virtually all of the men who were at Skate America should give up on skating, because they all made mistakes and failed to show their technical ability. These are people who put blood, sweat and tears into their training, and that should be respected, regardless of whether you like that skater or not, and regardless of whether they're the number 1 skater in the world or not.

 

[Ella5555]

You know, I think maybe some of us here need to take a cue from Jason and Nathan.

When Meryl Davis interviewed Nathan earlier today, he complimented Jason. When she interviewed Jason a bit later, he said he thinks Nathan is the best skater in the world and he admires him tremendously.

It’s possible to disagree with judging, to prefer one skater to another, and even to offer constructive criticism without dissing one skater’s “hunched” posture or the other’s “incredibly unattractive hand positions,” “splayed fingers,” and his fans, okay?

There’s no need to tear a skater down who’s not your favorite. If you think their marks are undeserved, remember that they’re not marking themselves.

Last I checked, both of these guys got standing ovations last night. Whether we like one more than the other, we should realize we’re truly lucky to have both.

Many posts ago, Tavi eloquently stated the above. I think it’s worth reiterating.

 

[oatmella]

Nathan respects Jason as a competitor, and we should as well.

 

[skatenewbie]

It's early in the season. Here're the scores of the US men.

Nathan 299.09
Jason 255.09
Vincent 231.95
Alexei 230.11
Camden 216.25
Tomoki 214.82
Jimmy 213.49

Jason has a great chance to return to the GPF with the silver at SA. Aside from Yuzu his main competitor at NHK is Kevin Aymoz. With 2 silvers he is almost guaranteed to get in. Even if 2+3, he still has a good chance to get in.

There is Sota Yamamoto and Voronov who could play a spoiler but overall he have a good chance to GPF

 

[alexaa]

I usually respect your comment on this forum, but this whole debacle blew up to what it is because bonita said she thinks Jason's hands are unappealing. Your own comment here seems confrontational and like an example of what you're asking for examples of, to me!



Here you go, it's from as early as yesterday and comes complete with a "sorry":



I do actually agree with bonita that skating fandom tends to decide on a "correct opinion" for certain skaters which are then considered the "norm" without much scrutiny. So and so is not artistic. So and so has the best SS. So and so does no transitions. It's an echo chamber and a bit tiresome. So is this current discussion, granted, but I understand why bonita is frustrated and felt the need to address it.

For what it's worth I've always felt Nathan was artistc. He received good PCS as a junior, but then spent some years focusing on jumps because for better or worse, TES influences PCS in the minds of the judges. It's a common, normal strategy. It's not unusual for young up-and-comers to beat the old guard with TES, get criticized for not being "artistic", and then a few years down the line they too get beaten by younger skaters' TES... and then the fandom complains because that new skater isn't artistic, the old skater is much better! Medvedeva, Hanyu, Nathan, they all went through this or will go through this.

Thank you for the response, medoroa, but I didn’t make any those comments lol. There are too many posts going back and forth, it is easily to be confused

 

[alexaa]

It’s not that I didn’t get your point, it’s that you didn’t make it, and now you’re starting to morph your arguments. Your last post simply began with a litany of the criticism that Nathan has received - you never said that Nathan fans let criticism roll happily off their backs, as compared to those overly sensitive Jason fans - and fortunate for you that you didn’t, because in fact, it’s not even true. See, e.g., post 550 in the Skate America Mens FS thread and some of the conversation that follows.

.

Tavi, I usually didn’t want get into arguments among Nathan’s rivals in a competition. But since you mentioned post 550 and related in your post, let us see what are post 550 are about. The posts you referred to are 550,554 and 565. I specified very clearly what I complained about in post 554 and later on in 565. Let’s see if I am complaining about actual criticism rather than untrue bashing.

I quoted part of 565 here because it is super long. I will put original quote of 550 and 554 in a separate response

And the timeline of the posts: I posted #550, 551 and 554 the evening of 19th, actually early morning of 20th before going to bed. 551 was information about costume, the background story of music choice etc. I made further clarification in post 565 when I woke up 20th to address the confusion caused by 550 and 554.

It is my fault if I didn’t specify those types posts in post 550 and caused all the confusion, I explained specifically what are the behaviors I considered as bashing in post 554, which you responded. I listed the types of post very specifically, if your post doesn’t fall into those types of post, I am perplexed then why do you think I said your post or any posts which are not under those categories as bashing.

I number the format the types of posts I considered as bashing in my post 550 and 554, which to me is twist from truth or fact

1. Twisting the fact he had turnout after the 4lz in the SP as a step out.
2. Claiming he was performing “jump skating” instead of “figure skating”, which is depressing
3. Claiming all he did was nothing but jumps
4. Claiming the “inflated PCS” is the contributing factor of his dominance. This is subject to debating, but personally I think his dominance is because of his technical power.

I considered those posts as bashing, and there are a number of those. I checked my two posts about bashing carefully before I responded to this post, since I posted them before went to bed. I made I I didn’t post anything about one should not question his PCS or if he is over scored. I don’t think I even mentioned any word about “over scoring”, let alone criticizing those posts or posters.

I actually really appreciated those posts in the SP thread about explanations of the positive GOE on that 4lz even though they personally would give him a -1. I never considered those as bashing. Those are very constructive and honest disagreement, that is one of the reasons I came to the competition thread to read what are FS fans responses/feedbacks to his first or second outing of his programs, espy the free, which had very mixed reviews from fans when he first debuted part of the program in August.

There are constructive criticism like his hunched shoulders, or rushing elements if he was off the music etc, which Nathan fans are open to, because fans would like to see him growing. Nathan himself said in a July interview that he is open to constructive criticism and would try to improve because there are other things saw in his skating which he failed to see.

And I really appreciate those posts who point out what they they think lacking or not in his programs or he is not making the progress he should be making.