Senior Ladies Need To Up The Age Requirement

[el henry]

.....
So now, the real reasons people want increased age limits:

1. They want to look at mature ladies, not little girls
2. They want to look at more artistic presentation
3. They don't want their favorites to be usurped by young flashes-in-the-pan


This entire "concern for young skaters"-angle is just a poorly thought up excuse to make their intentions appear more righteous than they actually are, because it's not logically sound.

I am one of the "people" advocating for increased age limits. I understand that you disagree with my conclusions, I have stated them and don't feel the need to reargue.

But I will keep coming back when I feel that my motivations are misrepresented.

I don't care about "mature" ladies, I have no favorites among the ladies, I do like artistic presentation, but I don't know that this would be aided by an increased age limit and has nothing to do with my opinions.

I would ask simply that the motivations for my opinions not be misstated. Thank you

 

[el henry]

Addressing the problem assumes there even is a problem.

The only problem I see is with the viewers not the skaters. This thread popped up right after Trusova won Skate Canada.

The backlash can be nothing more than an attempt to stop her and others like her winning, sometimes masked by a "but I am only concerned for their health" argument.

Some others are honest and say they don't want to see "little skinny girls" winning, which is their opinion and they're entitled to it.

If you are referring to me as one of the posters who is "masking" their opinion, could you please point to a post or an opinion that I have stated in this forum that leads you to believe that I am "masking"? Otherwise, whether or not you agree with the opinions, I believe that they should be at least be respected as my honestly held opinions.

If you are not referring to my opinions, please disregard. Thank you

 

[Mishaminion]

If you are referring to me as one of the posters who is "masking" their opinion, could you please point to a post or an opinion that I have stated in this forum that leads you to believe that I am "masking"? Otherwise, whether or not you agree with the opinions, I believe that they should be at least be respected as my honestly held opinions.

If you are not referring to my opinions, please disregard. Thank you

I wasn't referring to you

But... I am having a hard time understanding what your motivation even is.

 

[Arbitrary]

There's a big difference between two statements:

- We want to watch ladies skating, not girls.

- We want ladies winning Majors, not girls.

The 1st is mainly used to cover 2nd's intentions.
Because there's no problem to watch 21+ ladies skating right now.
Some countries having their ladies peaking at the age 14-16. Others are looking much better at the age 20-25.
The side attending mostly depends on the fact which ladies are affiliated with local businesses.
More "seniorer" your ladies, higher acceptable age you prefer.
Mathematics vs economy.

 

[el henry]

I wasn't referring to you

But... I am having a hard time understanding what your motivation even is.

Thank you for answering. I don't like to answer where it's not directed to me, but sometimes it's hard to tell.

I think I explained my motivation in the earlier posts, I'm not sure I can elaborate further. Posters may think I'm wrong, that's what a forum is for. Just call me wrong for the reasons I've given

 

[Mishaminion]

Thank you for answering. I don't like to answer where it's not directed to me, but sometimes it's hard to tell.

I think I explained my motivation in the earlier posts, I'm not sure I can elaborate further. Posters may think I'm wrong, that's what a forum is for. Just call me wrong for the reasons I've given

People have different opinions, I think it's fine to disagree with them but to say someone with a different opinion to my own is wrong isn't particularly fair...on this particular subject anyway.

 

[el henry]

People have different opinions, I think it's fine to disagree with them but to say someone with a different opinion to my own is wrong isn't particularly fair...on this particular subject anyway.

I think we agree on disagreement

I can disagree with persons. I can say their opinions don't make sense to me. I can say I'm not comfortable with the way they worded something.

But I will never try to ascribe something to them that they did not say.

And I agree this subject is one that can be difficult to discuss.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Again I go back to judges. Judges need to judge the sport fairly. When they do not reward sophistication and artistry, musicality and interpretation then it does become a jumping competition and it will be almost impossible for older skaters to keep up. If PCS is judged more accurately there should be more balance within the sport and some of these issues will balance out. It is exceedingly rare to find a 15 or 16 year old with the artistic skills of someone with several seasons under their belt.

But why sophisitication need to be awarded in first place? And what musicality means in figure skating? It only means responding to the music, nothing more than that. And you can respond to the music in many different ways, by raising a hand, raising a leg or giving a smile, frantic or elegantly, madly or lovely, with the line or with the motion. Now, more mature skaters can surely develop more intelectual and emotional understanding of the music, but that doesn't mean that some other understanding of it is wrong or not possible. Younger people will more enjoy Kostornaia's interpretation than Caro's interpretation, because themes they are portrating and their way of performance is just closer to them. Is that narrative just a narrative of die-hard fans of Michelle Kwan and Yuna Kim skating or any other skater from the past, who just want to ewoke something they loved while they were younger? Because, younger people are perfectly fine with Sasha's skating and her way of interpretation, for sure. Of course that she can improve in that department to be like Caro or Michelle, but why should she wanna skate like them, when she can do some other things they didn't and what makes some other people enjoying her skating And we can't say how judges are not rewarding other things than just quads (or 3As), look at Caro's or Jason's SP scores when they were clean. Clean Caro or Alina can easily beat Sasha's two quads program, as clean Jason can easily beat Vincent's two quads program. The other thing is that PCS is not the old 'Artistic impression mark', some of that does exist in PCS and some of that is part of GOE. But the point of PCS is not just to reward 'more artistic skaters', whatever that means. After all, i find martial art movements, or yoga movements, or balkan folk movements, or african tribal movements the same way artistic as ballet movements, and it's not fair to claim how one way is more 'artistic' than another.

 

[Elucidus]

https://www.sports.ru/figure-skating/1079686772.html
Savchenko supports the idea of raising the age limit - justifying it by proposing to compare Tuktamysheva's (!) skating with juniors - implying that she skates much better I wonder did she even see how Vaiieva or Sinitsina skates? Of course not - comparing them directly would be pure humiliaton for Liza after all. Which in turn raises the question why such "experts" are always so ready to take responsibility for making such statements without any research of the subject before? I mean - it's pretty obvious that she have no idea about level of modern junior ladies skating.
Also, talking about raising the age limit - first she talks about 14 y.o. for some reason - and one line later she tries to compare seniors with 13 y.o. Sorry, Savchenko - you just lose my respect for you as great athlete completely. Not because of your opinion - which differs from mine. Every human being is entitled to his own opinion after all. I just hate with passion people who tries to lie and manipulate in attempt to enforce their agenda. There are too many of that in politics already. I don't want to see it in a sport - it's disgusting.

 

[andromache]

https://www.sports.ru/figure-skating/1079686772.html
Savchenko supports the idea of raising the age limit - justifying it by proposing to compare Tuktamysheva's (!) skating with juniors - implying that she skates much better I wonder did she even see how Vaiieva or Sinitsina skates? Of course not - comparing them directly would be pure humiliaton for Liza after all. Which in turn raises the question why such "experts" are always so ready to take responsibility for making such statements without any research of the subject before? I mean - it's pretty obvious that she have no idea about level of modern junior ladies skating.
Also, talking about raising the age limit - first she talks about 14 y.o. for some reason - and one line later she tries to compare seniors with 13 y.o. Sorry, Savchenko - you just lose my respect for you as great athlete completely. Not because of your opinion - which differs from mine. Every human being is entitled to his own opinion after all. I just hate with passion people who tries to lie and manipulate in attempt to enforce their agenda. There are too many of that in politics already. I don't want to see it in a sport - it's disgusting.

What makes you think she is lying?

 

[lariko]

She is not lying, no, but she is building an argument on a false premise that the junior ladies start their senior career at 13 or 14, which is when they are still in juniors, the cut off being 15. Interestingly enough, she is not citing the teen girls in pair skating that should be far closer to her: Boikova is 17, Pavlyuchenko was 15 last year in seniors...

neither she cites teen males, again, Nathan Chen, whose puberty didn’t concern anyone.

She quotes Yuzuru as example of longevity and personality, and Yuzuru was born in 1994, making transition to seniors immediately after winning juniors in 2009/10 in 2010-2011 season, being a year older than Trusova at the time, and a male, with males maturing slower.

And, well, youth is one thing that is inevitably fixed.

 

[andromache]

She is not lying, no, but she is building an argument on a false premise that the junior ladies start their senior career at 13 or 14, which is when they are still in juniors, the cut off being 15. Interestingly enough, she is not citing the teen girls in pair skating that should be far closer to her: Boikova is 17, Pavlyuchenko was 15 last year in seniors...

neither she cites teen males, again, Nathan Chen, whose puberty didn’t concern anyone.

She quotes Yuzuru as example of longevity and personality, and Yuzuru was born in 1994, making transition to seniors immediately after winning juniors in 2009/10 in 2010-2011 season, being a year older than Trusova at the time, and a male, with males maturing slower.

And, well, youth is one thing that is inevitably fixed.

Am I missing something? She is answering questions that specifically relate to the rise of the young teen girls in skating, no? And she's not "building an argument" - she's just answering a few questions from a reporter.

It sounds she is worried that these girls will disappear from the top of the sport after they finish maturing. Is that a valid worry? I don't know, but at the very least, Aljona knows more about the sport than any of us. She seems to think an age limit would help ensure that there would be ladies' champions with potential for longevity. Longevity doesn't matter to all fans, but it seems to matter to Aljona, as a former skater and a fan of the sport herself.

She's not citing pairs ladies because pairs ladies do not peak when they are children/teens. It is pretty clear that Aljona is concerned about a future full of Tara Lipinskis - young girls who win it all at 15-16 and leave the sport after that. Should she be? Is that unlikely to happen? Even if it did happen, is that a bad thing? People are going to have different opinions.

I can understand if you disagree with her opinions, but she's not lying or making a false argument.

 

[Elucidus]

What makes you think she is lying?

Falsification of a initial widely known data (as current age limit is 15 y.o. - not 14 or 13) on a base of which she is trying to make a point in an argument about 15 y.o. or older skaters - talking about 13 or 14 y.o. specifically - is the same as a lie to me.

 

[andromache]

Falsification of a initial widely known data (as current age limit is 15 y.o. - not 14 or 13) on a base of which she is trying to make a point in an argument about 15 y.o. or older skaters - talking about 13 or 14 y.o. specifically - is the same as a lie to me.

Aljona never said that the the age limit is 13 or 14. She said the current age limit is good because it means that 13-14 year olds are not competing against 20 year olds. She might be in favor of raising the age limit (that's unclear), but it is clear that she agrees that an age limit is necessary. (And there already is an age limit, which Aljona knows.)

It sounds like she agrees with the current age limit because it keeps 13-14 year olds out of seniors.

I think people are reading nefarious intentions into something totally innocuous.

 

[lariko]

Am I missing something? She is answering questions that specifically relate to the rise of the young teen girls in skating, no? And she's not "building an argument" - she's just answering a few questions from a reporter.

It sounds she is worried that these girls will disappear from the top of the sport after they finish maturing. Is that a valid worry? I don't know, but at the very least, Aljona knows more about the sport than any of us. She seems to think an age limit would help ensure that there would be ladies' champions with potential for longevity. Longevity doesn't matter to all fans, but it seems to matter to Aljona, as a former skater and a fan of the sport herself.

She's not citing pairs ladies because pairs ladies do not peak when they are children/teens. It is pretty clear that Aljona is concerned about a future full of Tara Lipinskis - young girls who win it all at 15-16 and leave the sport after that. Should she be? Is that unlikely to happen? Even if it did happen, is that a bad thing? People are going to have different opinions.

I can understand if you disagree with her opinions, but she's not lying or making a false argument.

She is answering the questions, but her answers do not contain correct information, or her examples of the skaters contradict her POV.

At the moment, Trusova and Scherbakova both of whom are 15 had only won one GP event each so far in senior division. It does not mean one of them will win the World. Theoretically, teenage Boikova and Pavlyuchenko in pairs can end up on the podium this year...

Alina Zagitova won Olympics, then won Worlds again and is more than competitive.

Even Tuktamysheva Savchenko quoted started as a teen in seniors, and she is on the ice.

Yuzuru started at 16, and he is still going strong.

The regulatory measures as a knee jerk response before there is even enough data may have negative consequences in the future if there is a drought in the seniors, and a bunch of talented 16 or 17 yo’s will be benched. That boundary is porous for a reason.

I mean, there was already Zagitova clause for credit distribution. Now we’re going to have Trusova-Scherbakova clause?

One thing though, if they bench ladies, or call quads invalid on them, they should do that to the males as well, and not allow them on senior ice till they are 20 or something.

 

[el henry]

She is answering the questions, but her answers do not contain correct information, or her examples of the skaters contradict her POV.

At the moment, Trusova and Scherbakova both of whom are 15 had only won one GP event each so far in senior division. It does not mean one of them will win the World. Theoretically, teenage Boikova and Pavlyuchenko in pairs can end up on the podium this year...

Alina Zagitova won Olympics, then won Worlds again and is more than competitive.

Even Tuktamysheva Savchenko quoted started as a teen in seniors, and she is on the ice.

Yuzuru started at 16, and he is still going strong.

The regulatory measures as a knee jerk response before there is even enough data may have negative consequences in the future if there is a drought in the seniors, and a bunch of talented 16 or 17 yo’s will be benched. That boundary is porous for a reason.

I mean, there was already Zagitova clause for credit distribution. Now we’re going to have Trusova-Scherbakova clause?

One thing though, if they bench ladies, or call quads invalid on them, they should do that to the males as well, and not allow them on senior ice till they are 20 or something.

I am sorry, but this post simply shows that her answers do not agree with your point of view, not that her answers are internally inconsistent.

I am sure that Aliona S. knows that some skaters will not become seniors until a later age. And? :think: it has no effect on my opinion, I’m not certain why it should have an effect on hers?

Or that Yuzu is continuing. Great! Let the ladies start at 16 as seniors, and let us hope that they have a career as long and as illustrious as Yuzu’s:agree:

And as for your conclusion, why should the men be subject to a different age limit than the ladies? I would propose discussing raising the minimum age limit to 16 for both. :yes:

 

[lariko]

Why 16? Why not 17, 18 or 25? Is there something I’m not aware of that happens to figure skaters of either gender at 16? Because growth curves start flattening out for girls at 15, for boys a little later, by 17... and they go till around 19-20, when both genders would finish growing.

Only athletes, they are anything but average.

Again, that range between seniors and juniors is stretched out over a few years to allow for individual athletes to do what makes sense with their abilities and career choices.

Let’s be blunt, some of them might prefer to be done by twenty if they can earn enough to guarantee better life and education after leaving professional sport and choosing to do something else.

keeping Zagitova out of Olympics, keeping Trusova in juniors for an extra year... for what? In hopes they would burn out while nobody is watching on the premise that junior sports do not matter?

 

[el henry]

Why 16? Why not 17, 18 or 25? Is there something I’m not aware of that happens to figure skaters of either gender at 16? Because growth curves start flattening out for girls at 15, for boys a little later, by 17... and they go till around 19-20, when both genders would finish growing.

Only athletes, they are anything but average.

Again, that range between seniors and juniors is stretched out over a few years to allow for individual athletes to do what makes sense with their abilities and career choices.

Let’s be blunt, some of them might prefer to be done by twenty if they can earn enough to guarantee better life and education after leaving professional sport and choosing to do something else.

keeping Zagitova out of Olympics, keeping Trusova in juniors for an extra year... for what? In hopes they would burn out while nobody is watching on the premise that junior sports do not matter?

I chose 16 as the youngest age of "raising". I believe more studies need to be done. I err on the side of caution until the studies are completed, rather than risk potential injury while waiting for studies.

But those are my reasons, another person could have others. Frankly, I couldn't care less about Trusova or Zagitova. Or Alysa Liu. Or any one particular skater affected by a proposed age limitation. Not my faves, not my not faves. Don't care

I also, when it comes to health, don't care what a child would want to do or not to do. Their income stream does not influence me, or, better to say, that would influence me far less than potentially protecting their health.

Because someone disagrees with a position, it doesn't mean they're inconsistent. It means they disagree

 

[lariko]

If health is a concern, it makes more sense to look at the elements that are dangerous, such as, yes, quads. Because they do the same things in juniors and train for juniors just as much as they do for seniors. They start at 4 or 5 years of age, so by the time they are 15, they have a decade of doing what other children don’t do and can’t do.

The statistical sample on the skaters will never be representative in that respect, they are simply an exceptions of exceptions, it will be looking at the cloud of outliers.

Any sort of scientifically based cut off is going to be 19-20 yo, aligned with the end of growth. But at that point most people should be half way through university.

 

[andromache]

I’m still confused. Savchenko said that she agrees with the age limit. There is already an age limit. She doesn’t say anything about wanting to raise it further, though she does express concerns about skaters ending up like Lipinski. What’s wrong with that?

Aljona never says that no teenagers should be allowed in seniors. I’m not sure why you’re projecting that onto her.