The Tutberidze Effect

[RobinA]

The only thing I worry about is that the success of Tuberidze's group will prove once and for all what we fear to be true: that figure skating is a child's sport. In "ladies'" skating, what is most valued are the skills that only little girls can do.

Very well put. I think it will absolutely prove, and is currently proving, that Ladies figure skating as currently scored is a child's sport. What is currently valued are skills that only little girls can do. Eteri is taking advantage of the current love of rotations. What Figure Skating does with that situation is up to Figure Skating. It doesn't have to be this way. The scoring system can send skating in any direction the powers that be want it to go in. We'll see what happens over time. Voluntary change of direction? Health scandal? Fan disinterest in seeing children compete? Fan interest in seeing children compete? Something WILL give at some point. Will Eteri have to adjust? Will she be able to adjust? Stay tuned or give up in disgust. I change my mind on that daily.

 

[RobinA]

How many human bodies were destroyed by football(s), boxing, Alpine skiing, alpinism etc?

Many, what's your point?

 

[Arbitrary]

Very well put. I think it will absolutely prove, and is currently proving, that Ladies figure skating as currently scored is a child's sport. What is currently valued are skills that only little girls can do. Eteri is taking advantage of the current love of rotations. What Figure Skating does with that situation is up to Figure Skating. It doesn't have to be this way. The scoring system can send skating in any direction the powers that be want it to go in. We'll see what happens over time. Voluntary change of direction? Health scandal? Fan disinterest in seeing children compete? Fan interest in seeing children compete? Something WILL give at some point. Will Eteri have to adjust? Will she be able to adjust? Stay tuned or give up in disgust. I change my mind on that daily.

Yeah. The idea is to find the direction mostly suited for "our" skaters.
To take an advantage....

 

[Edwin]

Very well put. I think it will absolutely prove, and is currently proving, that Ladies figure skating as currently scored is a child's sport. What is currently valued are skills that only little girls can do. Eteri is taking advantage of the current love of rotations. What Figure Skating does with that situation is up to Figure Skating. It doesn't have to be this way. The scoring system can send skating in any direction the powers that be want it to go in. We'll see what happens over time. Voluntary change of direction? Health scandal? Fan disinterest in seeing children compete? Fan interest in seeing children compete? Something WILL give at some point. Will Eteri have to adjust? Will she be able to adjust? Stay tuned or give up in disgust. I change my mind on that daily.

They'll adapt and manage a new situation.

The only way to stop them is for the IOC and its subordinates to tightly regulate participation of athletes training/trained under state sponsored 'children in sports' programs and a mandatory age rise in all Olympic sports to limit these to 'consenting adults' only.

Nobody ever complained over 13 year old swimming prodigies having the bodies and physical strength and endurance of 18 year olds, or 15-16 year old Taekwondo girls looking like 12 year olds ...

Gymnastics both imposed a minimum age and open ended scoring at the same time, and this didn't really improve overall level nor health/injuries in the top female gymnasts, save for a lucky few.

For #TeamTutberidzeForProgress perhaps a more immediate concern is they have no fit and healthy 2005 born girls at the moment. Kanysheva's situation is a complete mystery, if she drops out or looses contact with the very top, they have to rely on the Terrific Trio going through puberty coming season. Before the 2006 born girls are able to step in, in the Olympic year, that will bring a completely new dynamics in the training group.
Having some 2005 born girls eases the load on the Awesome And Amazing Aces.

 

[RobinA]

Yeah. The idea is to find the direction mostly suited for "our" skaters.
To take an advantage....

The hope would be that a direction could be found that would benefit the largest number of skaters.

 

[RobinA]

They'll adapt and manage a new situation.

The only way to stop them is for the IOC and its subordinates to tightly regulate participation of athletes training/trained under state sponsored 'children in sports' programs and a mandatory age rise in all Olympic sports to limit these to 'consenting adults' only.

Nobody ever complained over 13 year old swimming prodigies having the bodies and physical strength and endurance of 18 year olds, or 15-16 year old Taekwondo girls ...

Gymnastics both imposed a minimum age and open ended scoring at the same time, and this didn't really improve overall level nor health/injuries in the top female gymnasts, save for a lucky few.

For #TeamTutberidzeForProgress perhaps a more immediate concern is they have no fit and healthy 2005 born girls at the moment. Kanysheva's situation is a complete mystery, if she drops out or looses contact with the very top, they have to rely on the Terrific Trio going through puberty coming season. Before the 2006 born girls are able to step in, in the Olympic year, that will bring a completely new dynamics in the training group.
Having some 2005 born girls eases the load on the Awesome And Amazing Aces.

Well, what I had in mind was whether they could adapt if the scoring were changed to more favor presentation and skating skills.

 

[Edwin]

Well, what I had in mind was whether they could adapt if the scoring were changed to more favor presentation and skating skills.

This is completely in their realm, skating skills still are the basics in any rink. In scoring, they are quantifiable, presentation, interpretation are so subjective they should be derated in the PCS tally, IMO.

The opposite is much harder to accomplish, ultra-si jumps are best learned young and hardly any child outside of Russia has enough ice time and coaches' attention and most importantly competitive rink mates.

First we'll have to wait for that feared 'total dominance' in the Grand Prix Final and even more the World Championships. And of course the other federations reactions to the results, first informal, later in the form of proposals and motions for the ISU to discuss and vote over.

 

[Arbitrary]

The hope would be that a direction could be found that would benefit the largest number of skaters.

Easy. Forbid quads and triples above 3S. Thousands can do doubles and 3T.

 

[SkatingFan9]

"Well, what I had in mind was whether they could adapt if the scoring were changed to more favor presentation and skating skills."

You mean if the rules were changed to mostly reward subjectivity? That would be the end of figure skating (R.I.P) as we know it. That is definitely not the way to advance the sport or attract more viewers. Besides, figure skating already has ice dancing if that is what people want to see.

A skater like Trusova is taking the sport to a whole new level. And you know what? She is paving the way for other female skaters to learn and master jumps. In the future, we will see many skaters who can combine insane athleticism but with other qualities to match. It will just take a little time.

What some of you want to do is impede the progress of the sport, set it back and destroy it only because a few Russians ladies are sweeping everything and you are butthurt that your favorites do not have a chance to win. How short-sighted and selfish.

 

[nussnacker]

"Well, what I had in mind was whether they could adapt if the scoring were changed to more favor presentation and skating skills."

You mean if the rules were changed to mostly reward subjectivity? That would be the end of figure skating (R.I.P) as we know it. That is definitely not the way to advance the sport or attract more viewers. Besides, figure skating already has ice dancing if that is what people want to see.

I don't think it would be the end of FS, but it can be the end of figure skating as a sport, it will be an art, not a sport at that point, kind of like dancing or ballet.
I don't know whether it will be removed from the Olympics if it gets too subjective, but it would be in the realm of possibilities.

 

[moriel]

They'll adapt and manage a new situation.

The only way to stop them is for the IOC and its subordinates to tightly regulate participation of athletes training/trained under state sponsored 'children in sports' programs and a mandatory age rise in all Olympic sports to limit these to 'consenting adults' only.

Nobody ever complained over 13 year old swimming prodigies having the bodies and physical strength and endurance of 18 year olds, or 15-16 year old Taekwondo girls ...

Gymnastics both imposed a minimum age and open ended scoring at the same time, and this didn't really improve overall level nor health/injuries in the top female gymnasts, save for a lucky few.

For #TeamTutberidzeForProgress perhaps a more immediate concern is they have no fit and healthy 2005 born girls at the moment. Kanysheva's situation is a complete mystery, if she drops out or looses contact with the very top, they have to rely on the Terrific Trio going through puberty coming season. Before the 2006 born girls are able to step in, in the Olympic year, that will bring a completely new dynamics in the training group.
Having some 2005 born girls eases the load on the Awesome And Amazing Aces.

We have to keep in mind that #TeamTutberidzeForProgress has progress, and clearly learns new tricks and improves their methods. For instance, it is not like Medvedeva and Zagitova had major puberty issues - both went through it quite successfully.


Then, we got to remember that, at least Trusova and Kostornaia, quite obviously have a lot of "room" to have puberty issues and still remain on top. Kostornaia's 3A is fairly solid and huge, she is not relying on being a tiny little girl there, and chances are she may keep it past puberty. Even if she does not, she still has top notch artistry and consistency, and it doesn't look like she will lose all triples suddenly. Trusova is pretty athletic, and it would not be a surprise if she also manages to keep at least some of that jumping power through and post puberty (and may grow a bit in artistry meanwhile).

 

[Edwin]

We have to keep in mind that #TeamTutberidzeForProgress has progress, and clearly learns new tricks and improves their methods. For instance, it is not like Medvedeva and Zagitova had major puberty issues - both went through it quite successfully.

Then, we got to remember that, at least Trusova and Kostornaia, quite obviously have a lot of "room" to have puberty issues and still remain on top. Kostornaia's 3A is fairly solid and huge, she is not relying on being a tiny little girl there, and chances are she may keep it past puberty. Even if she does not, she still has top notch artistry and consistency, and it doesn't look like she will lose all triples suddenly. Trusova is pretty athletic, and it would not be a surprise if she also manages to keep at least some of that jumping power through and post puberty (and may grow a bit in artistry meanwhile).

There is no doubt in my mind about this at all. The training and medical staff will pace the skaters as required and monitor their health closely. They are the pride and joy of Khrustalniy, working capital that they've invested time, energy and a large part of themselves in. They won't let the skaters go to waste (I sincerely hope)

But the risk of stress, strain and overload injuries, or just plain silly accidents at home or on the street, is always present.

 

[Arbitrary]

We have to keep in mind that #TeamTutberidzeForProgress has progress, and clearly learns new tricks and improves their methods. For instance, it is not like Medvedeva and Zagitova had major puberty issues - both went through it quite successfully.


Then, we got to remember that, at least Trusova and Kostornaia, quite obviously have a lot of "room" to have puberty issues and still remain on top. Kostornaia's 3A is fairly solid and huge, she is not relying on being a tiny little girl there, and chances are she may keep it past puberty. Even if she does not, she still has top notch artistry and consistency, and it doesn't look like she will lose all triples suddenly. Trusova is pretty athletic, and it would not be a surprise if she also manages to keep at least some of that jumping power through and post puberty (and may grow a bit in artistry meanwhile).

It was successfully proven one needs not to be too slim to do 3Ax. Tuktamisheva looks absolutely non-anorexial.

 

[Arbitrary]

There is no doubt in my mind about this at all. The training and medical staff will pace the skaters as required and monitor their health closely. They are the pride and joy of Khrustalniy, working capital that they've invested time, energy and a large part of themselves in. They won't let the skaters go to waste (I sincerely hope)

But the risk of stress, strain and overload injuries, or just plain silly accidents at home or on the street, is always present.

Yeah, sweet dreams.
TUT found a way to fight those "well wishers" with an idea to have 3-4+ girls at the top level. One can fall, two more ready.

 

[RobinA]

"Well, what I had in mind was whether they could adapt if the scoring were changed to more favor presentation and skating skills."

You mean if the rules were changed to mostly reward subjectivity? That would be the end of figure skating (R.I.P) as we know it. That is definitely not the way to advance the sport or attract more viewers. Besides, figure skating already has ice dancing if that is what people want to see.

A skater like Trusova is taking the sport to a whole new level. And you know what? She is paving the way for other female skaters to learn and master jumps. In the future, we will see many skaters who can combine insane athleticism but with other qualities to match. It will just take a little time.

What some of you want to do is impede the progress of the sport, set it back and destroy it only because a few Russians ladies are sweeping everything and you are butthurt that your favorites do not have a chance to win. How short-sighted and selfish.

No, it won't end figure skating as we know it, it IS figure skating as we know it. Prepubescent girls who can do more revolutions than their older counterparts is as old as competitive skating. The only thing I see "progressing" is the ability to hold off puberty for a few more years than is generally the norm so that these girls can have success in seniors.

To me, it is not "progress" for girls to take greater and greater risks with their health in order to be able to push the demands of a sport in one direction. I have been a fan of figure skating for a very long time, but I will not be a fan of a sport where young people are rewarded for starving themselves into everlasting childhood. THAT'S short-sighted and selfish. Actually, I think I'm already a fan of that sport. I just haven't completely given up yet.

 

[nussnacker]

The only thing I see "progressing" is the ability to hold off puberty for a few more years than is generally the norm so that these girls can have success in seniors.

How do you hold off puberty?

 

[SkatingFan9]

1. Maybe I misunderstood you; but can you inform us how they are "holding off" puberty? You must know something that everyone else doesn't.

2. What proof do you have that these girls are starving themselves? Are you a doctor and have you personally evaluated them? You should know that not every person is built the same way. Being short and light does not automatically mean one is anorexic. You are body shaming these girls by saying that they are starving themselves. You should not be making baseless claims about someone's health and appearance, as they are hurtful and offensive.

3. Have you seen Elizaveta Tuktamysheva's gorgeous 4T? Is she starving herself also and going through puberty?

4. The ladies quad revolution has just barely started. That has opened the door for many skaters now - younger and older - to learn and master these jumps. The fact that Tuktamysheva is now landing quads is proof of that. None of this would have seemed conceivable a few years ago.

5. What proof do you have that these girls are endangering their healths by trying these difficult jumps? Nobody knows what long-term health effects, if any, it will have on them. Also, skaters have gotten injured by doing 'only' triples. Should they stop trying triples because they are endangering their healths?

 

[Edwin]

How do you hold off puberty?

Postponing menarche by heavy exercise and dieting, or certain medication (which are probably under doping ban or seriously objectionable in perfectly healthy girls) keep the female child from changing into an adolescent.
There are lots of medical, socio-pediatric and scientific articles available on the effect of top sports on developing youths, girls in particular.

For starters: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2958977/ , there are many linked articles.

 

[Olibritt]

Postponing menarche by heavy exercise and dieting, or certain medication (which are probably under doping ban or seriously objectionable) keep the female child from changing into an adolescent.
There are lots of medical, socio-pediatric and scientific articles available on the effect of top sports on developing youths, girls in particular.

For starters: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2958977/ , there are many linked articles.

Reproduction in not essential for the survival of the individual (not talking about the species right now), that's why when there's a restriction in the energy available, reproduction is one of the functions that the body tends to slow down or avoid for some time. I can talk for myself and for the women around me: when we reduce food, increase exercise or both at the same time, there's a clear effect in the menstruation: it reduces or it can even disappear if the unbalance in big enough.
Scientific articles, as you propose, are the best way to talk about this, I just wanted to add that this is not a complex or an unknown theory, because most women have experienced this effect in their own bodies to some extent.

 

[Edwin]

Golodets: Kostornaya’s records and Trusova’s performance are a historic achievement

Alyona Kostornaya won the Grand Prix finals with two world records, Aleksandra Trusova performed the quadruple Flip for the first time in the history of women's single skating

MOSCOW, December 8. / TASS / Alyona Kostornaya's world records, as well as technical elements performed by Aleksandra Trusova, are a historic achievement in Russian figure skating. This opinion was expressed by Deputy Prime Minister Olga Golodets, whose words were provided by her press service to TASS.

16-year-old Kostornaya, for whom this season was the first at senior level, won the Grand Prix finals with two world records - in the short program (85.45 points) and in the sum of points (247.59). Russian figure skaters took the entire podium in the final: the second place was taken by 15-year-old Anna Shcherbakova, the third by 15-year-old Trusova.

“I congratulate the Russian figure skating team, the merited coach Eteri Tutberidze, with the outstanding Grand Prix Finals in Turin and a successful international season. Our national figure skating school has always been strong, but in the 2019 season our skaters showed a new level of skill,” the message reads.

"The established world records of Alyona Kostornaya, technical elements performed by Aleksandra Trusova have already become a historic achievement. Today, a whole generation of the strongest skaters has appeared in our country including Kostornaya, Trusova, Anna Shcherbakova, Olympic champion Alina Zagitova, whose performances continue to delight all figure skating enthusiasts; I wish our athletes new successes and victories! "

Kostornaya is the winner of the final of the Junior Grand Prix series of the previous season, in the season before that, she became the second, also in her collection of asset is the Silver of the Junior World Championship (2018). This season, Kostornaya won at the stages of the Grand Prix in France and Japan.

Trusova also spends her debut season at senior level. This season, in her active victories are the stages of the Grand Prix in Russia and Canada, she holds the world record in the free program (166.62). She is the first performer of the quadruple Lutz, the quadruple Toeloop and the quadruple Flip in the history of women's single skating (performed it in the free program in the Grand Prix finals), as well as the second figure skater after the Japanese Miki Ando, ​​who managed to correctly perform a Salchow in four turns.
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https://tass.ru/sport/7294325