2019 Judging and Tech calls discussion

[DizzyFrenchie]

I don't understand. I avoid nothing at all. I was asked what scores I would have given, I answered that was a difficult question, but here I am starting some "dissection" of the subject, and in my opinion, it starts by discussing elements and GOEs, then go on to PCs, maybe because this is the order of the scores we get when we watch championships. Do you find any inconvenience in it?

 

[gkelly]

DizzyFrenchie, would you be willing to give your thoughts about GOEs and/or PCS for skaters who have not medaled at the GPF, or ever competed there?

 

[Mishaminion]

I don't understand. I avoid nothing at all. I was asked what scores I would have given, I answered that was a difficult question, but here I am starting some "dissection" of the subject, and in my opinion, it starts by discussing elements and GOEs, then go on to PCs, maybe because this is the order of the scores we get when we watch championships. Do you find any inconvenience in it?

Well you discussed Nathan's PCS and that you felt he deserved a lot less, like a 7 in performance.

I showed you the level of PCS Dmitri Aliev received for his disaster FS and wanted to know why you feel Nathan should have only got PCS in that same range for two fantastic performances?

So you move on to GOEs instead of explaining the discrepancy.

The answer to why Yuzu did not win the SP is right there in your TES table.
Assuming a clean 4T-3T would have netted him around 16 points, which it may well have done, by making an error on the combo he lost about 12 points. That almost explains the difference between his and Nathan's scores all by itself.

You can play with the GOEs, TES and PCS all you like to try to fit your opinion but the fact remains that Yuzu lost a lot of valuable points on his missed combo and probably some PCS too as it was a visible program interrupting mistake.

You can't magic those points back by ignoring just how costly that error was.
Nathan skated clean with 4Lz and 4T-3T and performed to the best of his ability.

 

[bigsisjiejie]

DizzyFrenchie, would you be willing to give your thoughts about GOEs and/or PCS for skaters who have not medaled at the GPF, or ever competed there?

DizzyFrenchie, would you be willing to give your thoughts about why Hanyu should have beaten Uno at Japanese Nationals today?

 

[Mishaminion]

DizzyFrenchie, would you be willing to give your thoughts about why Hanyu should have beaten Uno at Japanese Nationals today?

Did they say that though?

As far as I know he/she hasn't claimed that.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

Well you discussed Nathan's PCS and that you felt he deserved a lot less, like a 7 in performance.

I showed you the level of PCS Dmitri Aliev received for his disaster FS and wanted to know why you feel Nathan should have only got PCS in that same range for two fantastic performances?

So you move on to GOEs instead of explaining the discrepancy.

The answer to why Yuzu did not win the SP is right there in your TES table.
(...).

But there is no link! I did it when I could have access again to videos, exactly as projected many days before! There were problems both on GOEs and on PCs, and of course we must study them separately! Do you really not want to?

By the way, I wish to focus on it before watching Japan Nationals (though I did watch Hanyu's SP), for which I read nowhere that there had been a fail in judgment — and, having nevertheless seen a short .gif of Yuzuru Hanyu exhausted particularly by his three shots of jetlag in the last weeks, as well as his unusual exhaustion after a SP; and having seen no recent Shoma Uno skating but knowing he is now settled with a good coach, who can be really surprised? He couldn't avoid Nationals, it is a pity but a general rule, he went, he didn't win. He was assigned to 4CC, I don't know if he wished so, but he will abide.

GKElly, what do you mean?

 

[Mishaminion]

But there is no link! I did it when I could have access again to videos, exactly as projected many days before! There were problems both on GOEs and on PCs, and of course we must study them separately! Do you really not want to?

By the way, I wish to focus on it before watching Japan Nationals (though I did watch Hanyu's SP), for which I read nowhere that there had been a fail in judgment — and, having nevertheless seen a short .gif of Yuzuru Hanyu exhausted particularly by his three shots of jetlag in the last weeks, as well as his unusual exhaustion after a SP; and having seen no recent Shoma Uno skating but knowing he is now settled with a good coach, who can be really surprised? He couldn't avoid Nationals, it is a pity but a general rule, he went, he didn't win. He was assigned to 4CC, I don't know if he wished so, but he will abide.

GKElly, what do you mean?

You can study the scores if you want to...but unless you raise Yuzu's score higher than it deserved to be and also lower Nathan's score lower than it deserved to be...Nathan still comes out on top.

Because Yuzu lost at least 12 points on his combo.

As for Nationals...Yuzu scored 110 in his short with near perfect PCS so very few will argue much with that to be honest.

The FS was a disaster by his standards because of his tiredness mostly and Shoma stayed on his feet to win the title.

 

[gkelly]

GKElly, what do you mean?

I'm curious as to whether you are interested in how the scoring system works for all skaters.

Do you engage with the rules enough to apply them to performances that have nothing to do with how your favorite skater places in competition?

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

I'm curious as to whether you are interested in how the scoring system works for all skaters.

Do you engage with the rules enough to apply them to performances that have nothing to do with how your favorite skater places in competition?

I am. I find, as I said before, there is a general problem with components scores depending on elements rather than what they are supposed to reward. It just gets particularly acute and spectacular in the Chen/Hanyu competition. I am far from being the only one to think so. Maybe a French, or a Spanish speaker may be more affected because for us, "figure skating" is "patinage (skating) artistique" or "patinaje artístico". Yet PCS and the present GOE system were not implemented for nothing, were they?

 

[1111bm]

Well, I come back to the subthread of comparing Chen's and Hanyu's short programs in Torino.

[...]

Nathan Chen
Element Time TSM BV GOE Score
4 Lutz 1:09 4:20 11.50 4,27 15.77
3 Axel 1:38 4:31 8.50 2.51 11.01
ChCSp4 1:43 4:42 3.20 1.01 3.21
4T+3T 2:20 4:48 13.70 2,99 16,69
StSq4 2:25 5:22 3.90 1,69 5,59
FSSp4 2:58 (no) 3.00 0,94 3,94
ChCoSp4 3:13 (no) 3.50 1,34 4,84

Yuzuru Hanyu
4Salchow 1:04 5:01 9,70 4.12 13,82
3 Axel 1:30 5:15 8.50 3.77 12.27
4T+COMBO 2.04 5.30 9.50 -5.00 4.50
FCSp4 2:09 5:41 3.20 1.01 4.21
ChSSp4 2:29 (no) 3.0 1.07 4.07
StSq4 2:40 5:48 3.90 1.64 5.54
ChCoSp4 3:11 (no) 3.50 1.40 4.90

I thought it was the GPF long program where several of the posters in this thread felt that Yuzuru didn't deliver a convincing performance nor his best jumps, so not quite sure why we should have a look at the SP?

I also don't understand the point of your list with the element scores. What is it supposed to tell us?

Why are you using the temporary GOE instead of the final one from the protocol? The former is pretty much irrelevant, no?

And why are you using the GOE value in absolute numbers? For a qualitative analysis (which I assume you're attempting to do here?) the raw GOE or the percentage from the base value is more useful, because it allows us to compare the GOE among different skaters, since they're executing different elements with different base values, either planned (different technical layout) or involuntary (lost levels, pops, URs, downgrades or other mistakes).
And as long as we know the base value of an element, we also get an idea of how much that raw GOE is "worth".

And what about the PCS, which was a main point of discussion?

Just have my answer deleted because I was too long writing it, and unlike for previous long messages, it wasn't kept until I log in again. >(

That's why it's always a good idea to copy what you've already written in-between, while you're composing a post (or anything else on your computer or phone), so it's in your clipboard, in case something goes wrong with the internet connection, the application etc., the same way it's a common habit of many people to save whatever you're working on every few minutes. I'm surprised that not everyone does that, it's one of the first things I've learned (the hard way ) to do when I first started using a computer decades ago.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

I thought it was the GPF long program where several of the posters in this thread felt that Yuzuru didn't deliver a convincing performance nor his best jumps, so not quite sure why we should have a look at the SP?

I also don't understand the point of your list with the element scores. What is it supposed to tell us?

Why are you using the temporary GOE instead of the final one from the protocol? The former is pretty much irrelevant, no?

And why are you using the GOE value in absolute numbers? For a qualitative analysis (which I assume you're attempting to do here?) the raw GOE or the percentage from the base value is more useful, because it allows us to compare the GOE among different skaters, since they're executing different elements with different base values, either planned (different technical layout) or involuntary (lost levels, pops, URs, downgrades or other mistakes).
And as long as we know the base value of an element, we also get an idea of how much that raw GOE is "worth".

And what about the PCS, which was a main point of discussion?




That's why it's always a good idea to copy what you've already written in-between, while you're composing a post (or anything else on your computer or phone), so it's in your clipboard, in case something goes wrong with the internet connection, the application etc., the same way it's a common habit of many people to save whatever you're working on every few minutes. I'm surprised that not everyone does that, it's one of the first things I've learned (the hard way ) to do when I first started using a computer decades ago.

What I say is, the judgment for SP was not fair, and it impacted the FS — I was quite insecure as to what to think about his FS; which was obviously subpar technically, and artistically (so, I don't mean exactly components, for instance transitions were not to his standards though they were good compared to other skaters) quite moving, I had never seen such moving skating, and it reminded me Nikolaï Tsiskaridze and Anzhelina Vorontsova's Giselle in Kazan, May 25th 2013, il full Bolshoi drama with so much harrassment and international PR campaign against them, and her boyfriend in jail. Sorry for the digression.

Yes, I planned to go to PCs after the GOEs this Sunday, having video, I wrote it may be just because PCs are announced after TECs, or because I find more logical to focus on elements first?
Of course, I wrote I had to rely on provisory GOEs, and I agree it is neither very accurate nor comfortable, so if you have the full board and share it here, I would be very pleased.

By the way, I found an alternate (and very good) view of both short programs, on extra fs Youtube channel, so I may add their time of elements starts when I get video again (for Christmas, but then I will have very little time).
I found Yuzuru Hanyu's SP skating map too, here, but not Nathan Chen's yet.

And, yes, I was quite imprudent in not saving my message; that is because I had twice saved a long message on this forum, and not needed the copy even if I had to log in again. Not this time, nor the next (but then I had saved...)

 

[1111bm]

DizzyFrenchie, would you be willing to give your thoughts about why Hanyu should have beaten Uno at Japanese Nationals today?

Well played!

Did they say that though?

As far as I know he/she hasn't claimed that.

Pretty sure that was just a joke. You know, alleging that such an ardent admirer of Yuzuru, who believes in his absolute superiority even with a messy skate such as his LP at GPF, will for sure also feel that he should've received higher scores for his Nationals LP.

 

[1111bm]

Of course, I wrote I had to rely on provisory GOEs, and I agree it is neither very accurate nor comfortable, so if you have the full board and share it here, I would be very pleased.

I know what you wrote, but it doesn't answer the question of why you're bothering with the provisory GOE at all, since the final GOE and everything else is in the protocol. You could've just comfortably copied it instead of tracking the provisory GOE in the scorebox.

And I still don't get the point of your list, you didnt share any of your own thoughts regarding those scores, didn't draw any conclusions or describe why you feel that a certain score is not justified, which qualities/flaws exactly made an element by Yuzuru or Nathan deserving of lower/higher GOE than they were awarded and so on.

 

[Mishaminion]

What I say is, the judgment for SP was not fair, and it impacted the FS — I was quite insecure as to what to think about his FS; which was obviously subpar technically, and artistically (so, I don't mean exactly components, for instance transitions were not to his standards though they were good compared to other skaters) quite moving, I had never seen such moving skating, and it reminded me Nikolaï Tsiskaridze and Anzhelina Vorontsova's Giselle in Kazan, May 25th 2013, il full Bolshoi drama with so much harrassment and international PR campaign against them, and her boyfriend in jail. Sorry for the digression.

Yes, I planned to go to PCs after the GOEs this Sunday, having video, I wrote it may be just because PCs are announced after TECs, or because I find more logical to focus on elements first?
Of course, I wrote I had to rely on provisory GOEs, and I agree it is neither very accurate nor comfortable, so if you have the full board and share it here, I would be very pleased.

By the way, I found an alternate (and very good) view of both short programs, on extra fs Youtube channel, so I may add their time of elements starts when I get video again (for Christmas, but then I will have very little time).
I found Yuzuru Hanyu's SP skating map too, here, but not Nathan Chen's yet.

And, yes, I was quite imprudent in not saving my message; that is because I had twice saved a long message on this forum, and not needed the copy even if I had to log in again. Not this time, nor the next (but then I had saved...)

I keep saying this but...

You made a statement that you did not believe Nathan Chen should have had PCS scores in the 9s and also said you thought he only should have 7 in performance. I'm guessing around that 6-7 score for the other components too?

You won't answer WHY you believe this.

No skater in the SP got less than an 8 in any PCS category, apart from Boyang Jin who got a transitions score in the high 7s. He also had a rough skate.

So can you please explain to me how Nathan deserved the lowest PCS of the entire SP?

Your list still refutes your insistence that the judging was unfair.

List corrected using protocols:

Nathan Chen 4T+3T BV 15.07 x GOE 2.99 TOTAL 18.06

Yuzuru Hanyu 4T+COMBO BV 10.45 x GOE -4.75 TOTAL 5.70

Points difference 12.36


Chen SP TSS 110.38

Hanyu SP TSS 97.43

Points difference 12.95

Isu results page: http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1920/gpf1920/


Almost all of the difference can be attributed to the combo mistake.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

What I say is, the judgment for SP was not fair, and it impacted the FS — I was quite insecure as to what to think about his FS; which was obviously subpar technically, and artistically (so, I don't mean exactly components, for instance transitions were not to his standards though they were good compared to other skaters) quite moving, I had never seen such moving skating, and it reminded me Nikolaï Tsiskaridze and Anzhelina Vorontsova's Giselle in Kazan, May 25th 2013, il full Bolshoi drama with so much harrassment and international PR campaign against them, and her boyfriend in jail. Sorry for the digression.

Yes, I planned to go to PCs after the GOEs this Sunday, having video, I wrote it may be just because PCs are announced after TECs, or because I find more logical to focus on elements first?
Of course, I wrote I had to rely on provisory GOEs, and I agree it is neither very accurate nor comfortable, so if you have the full board and share it here, I would be very pleased.

By the way, I found an alternate (and very good) view of both short programs, on extra fs Youtube channel, so I may add their time of elements starts when I get video again (for Christmas, but then I will have very little time).
I found Yuzuru Hanyu's SP skating map too, here, but not Nathan Chen's yet.

And, yes, I was quite imprudent in not saving my message; that is because I had twice saved a long message on this forum, and not needed the copy even if I had to log in again. Not this time, nor the next (but then I had saved...)

How was the judgment for the SP not fair? If anything Hanyu was overscored on his definitely not effortless 3A (which got several +4S, which are not allowed if the effortless bullet and good takeoff/landing bullet is achieved). His PCS was massive too. And his combo was out before the bonus this time around and yet he got a “personal best” score.

Uno went clean (yes a 4-2, but under the rules that is a clean skate, even if it didn’t score as high as it could). People are complaining about Uno’s eked our FS jumps getting higher GOE than Hanyu’s UR or stepouts. And it’s like... really?!?!

So since you’re bringing up GOEs please then provide the GOEs you would have issued to Uno and Hanyu in the SP or FS. The criteria for GOE is readily available.

 

[Mishaminion]

How was the judgment for the SP not fair? If anything Hanyu was overscored on his definitely not effortless 3A (which got several +4S, which are not allowed if the effortless bullet and good takeoff/landing bullet is achieved). His PCS was massive too. And his combo was out before the bonus this time around and yet he got a “personal best” score.

Uno went clean (yes a 4-2, but under the rules that is a clean skate, even if it didn’t score as high as it could). People are complaining about Uno’s eked our FS jumps getting higher GOE than Hanyu’s UR or stepouts. And it’s like... really?!?!

So since you’re bringing up GOEs please then provide the GOEs you would have issued to Uno and Hanyu in the SP or FS. The criteria for GOE is readily available.

DizzyFrenchie means the GPF SP not Nationals.

The SP where Nathan skated clean and Yuzu stumbled on his 4T in his combo and couldn't add the 3T thus losing around a dozen points.

 

[1111bm]

How was the judgment for the SP not fair? If anything Hanyu was overscored on his definitely not effortless 3A (which got several +4S, which are not allowed if the effortless bullet and good takeoff/landing bullet is achieved). His PCS was massive too. And his combo was out before the bonus this time around and yet he got a “personal best” score.

Uno went clean (yes a 4-2, but under the rules that is a clean skate, even if it didn’t score as high as it could). People are complaining about Uno’s eked our FS jumps getting higher GOE than Hanyu’s UR or stepouts. And it’s like... really?!?!

So since you’re bringing up GOEs please then provide the GOEs you would have issued to Uno and Hanyu in the SP or FS. The criteria for GOE is readily available.

Mishaminion is correct, we were discussing the GPF not Nationals, but since you mention it, speaking of the latter...

After watching the SP I thought that it's weird...

...for someone who's being held down by the ISU, overly scrutinised and more harshly judged than other waaaay less successful skaters...

...even, if not moreso, by his own fed and japanese judges/officials...

...Yuzuru sure doesn't get many of his URs called lately (that 4T in his Nats SP, anyone? and he also had 2-3 possible ones during GPF LP)... same with the GOE on his not-so-great landings...

If this were anyone else, I'd be very much inclined to call this reputation judging, but since Yuzuru famously doesn't receive such benefits...

 

[Mishaminion]

Mishaminion is correct, we were discussing the GPF not Nationals, but since you mention it, speaking of the latter...

After watching the SP I thought that it's weird...

...for someone who's being held down by the ISU, overly scrutinised and more harshly judged than other waaaay less successful skaters...

...even, if not moreso, by his own fed and japanese judges/officials...

...Yuzuru sure doesn't get many of his URs called lately (that 4T in his Nats SP, anyone? and he also had 2-3 possible ones during GPF LP)... same with the GOE on his not-so-great landings...

If this were anyone else, I'd be very much inclined to call this reputation judging, but since Yuzuru famously doesn't receive such benefits...

Ah yes, the ISU/JSF are trying to get rid of Yuzu by underscoring him and forcing him to lose so he will give up and retire...so the conspiracy theory goes.
Makes no sense to me since he's still figure skating's biggest star and brings a lot of fans and money to the sport.The ISU would have to be not just corrupt but be braindead stupid to shoot themselves in the foot that badly.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

Thank you Mishaminion for the link, which I should have found as I used to consult them (but then, since that final, I tend to avoid their site and only reluctantly had to take ISU videos). I correct here.

Nathan Chen
Element Time TSM BV GOE Score (Judges)
4 Lutz 1:09 4:20 11.50 4,44 15.94 (4 4 4 5 3 5 4 3 3)
3 Axel 1:38 4:31 8.50 2.51 11.01 (4 3 2 4 2 4 3 3 3)
ChCSp4 1:43 4:42 3.20 1.01 3.21 (3 3 3 3 3 4 4 3 3)
4T+3T 2:20 4:48 13.70 2,99 16,69 (3 3 1 3 4 3 3 3)
StSq4 2:25 5:22 3.90 1,67 5,57 (5 4 4 5 4 4 5 4 4)
FSSp4 2:58 (no) 3.00 0,99 3,99 (3 3 3 5 3 4 3 4 3)
ChCoSp4 3:13 (no) 3.50 1,35 4,85 (4 4 3 4 4 5 4 4 3)

Yuzuru Hanyu
4Salchow 1:04 5:01 9,70 4.16 13,86 (5 4 4 4 4 5 5 3 4)
3 Axel 1:30 5:15 8.50 3.77 12.27 (5 4 5 5 5 4 4 5)
4T+COMBO 2.04 5.30 9.50 -4.75 4.75 (- 5 all)
FCSp4 2:09 5:41 3.20 1.01 4.21 (3 3 2 3 3 4 4 3 3)
ChSSp4 2:29 (no) 3.0 1.03 4.03 (4 4 2 4 4 4 3 3 1)
StSq4 2:40 5:48 3.90 1.73 5.63 (5 3 3 5 5 5 5 4 4)
ChCoSp4 3:11 (no) 3.50 1.40 4.90 (4 4 4 4 4 5 4 4)

I still stand for doing GOEs before, then PCs. Not only PCs, at least.
And I project to complete the above by the time references on extra fs videos, on Wednesday if I have time, I think it shouldn't be very long.

At least, if you are not here just to congratulate yourselves and unwilling to discuss anything seriously, as I now suspect from your answers.

 

[Mishaminion]

Thank you Mishaminion for the link, which I should have found as I used to consult them (but then, since that final, I tend to avoid their site and only reluctantly had to take ISU videos). I correct here.

Nathan Chen
Element Time TSM BV GOE Score (Judges)
4 Lutz 1:09 4:20 11.50 4,44 15.94 (4 4 4 5 3 5 4 3 3)
3 Axel 1:38 4:31 8.50 2.51 11.01 (4 3 2 4 2 4 3 3 3)
ChCSp4 1:43 4:42 3.20 1.01 3.21 (3 3 3 3 3 4 4 3 3)
4T+3T 2:20 4:48 13.70 2,99 16,69 (3 3 1 3 4 3 3 3)
StSq4 2:25 5:22 3.90 1,67 5,57 (5 4 4 5 4 4 5 4 4)
FSSp4 2:58 (no) 3.00 0,99 3,99 (3 3 3 5 3 4 3 4 3)
ChCoSp4 3:13 (no) 3.50 1,34 4,84 (

Yuzuru Hanyu
4Salchow 1:04 5:01 9,70 4.12 13,82
3 Axel 1:30 5:15 8.50 3.77 12.27
4T+COMBO 2.04 5.30 9.50 -5.00 4.50
FCSp4 2:09 5:41 3.20 1.01 4.21
ChSSp4 2:29 (no) 3.0 1.07 4.07
StSq4 2:40 5:48 3.90 1.64 5.54
ChCoSp4 3:11 (no) 3.50 1.40 4.90

That's still not correct

And why would you avoid the ISU results page/site? That doesn't help you at all, the information you need to discuss these scores is all there.

For example, copying directly from the detailed results PDF:

CHEN 4T+3T 15.07 x 2.99 18.06

HANYU 4T+COMBO 10.45 x -4.75 5.70

As for discussing anything seriously, I am doing, very much so.
Yet you still refuse to discuss on what basis you have lowered Nathan's PCS to such a degree that it would be literally the worst of that entire Men's competition.

Nothing can ever change the fact Yuzu lost around 12 points on his combination mistake. Nothing.

Raising Yuzu's scores to a level they do not deserve or lowering Nathan's to a level they do not deserve is just as bad and unfair as the unfair scoring you claim happened.

Compare GPF SP with NHK where Yuzu didn't make such a costly combo error...

He scored:

TSS 109.34 TES 61.23 PCS 48.11

Taking away the roughly 12 points he missed out on in the combo alone at GPF from the NHK score gives

TSS 97.34

compared to 97.43 at GPF.

That doesn't even include the lower PCS for such a visible error, so just for comparison a deduction of 1.5 PCS:

TSS 95.84.

Lower than GPF, so if anything maybe even slightly overscored instead.

I'd like your thoughts on that?