2019-20 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[flanker]

Doing the math

If Trusova landed her 4F, 4Lz, 4T with +3 GOE she would have scored 41,60.
Instead she scored 8,47. Difference 33,13 points.

Add that to her final score she would have gotten 259,47.
Kostornaia scored 259,83 and Shcherbakova 261,87.

It's extremely close between the three of them.

If clean, Sasha's PCS would also have been higher for 2-3 points.

 

[Nord Stream 2]

I still find it amusing...well actually irritating that some people are forever banging on about Liza not replacing "easy" jumps with "hard" jumps like she's doing it on purpose.

I mean these are some of the hardest jumps you can do, most ladies can't do them in fact. No matter! Liza should still immediately put in three 3As (one in combo) and 2 4Ts(one in combo) in her programs like it's no big deal and the fact they didn't makes Liza and Mishin idiots.

When Aliona did her 3A everyone was so impressed as they should be, but Liza adds a 4T and everyone is all "Where'd the 3A combo go?!"

Guess she needs to toss in a 4A before some of you are impressed by her skill.

Mishin no longer works. Everyone sees Gulyakova and Samodurova. This is no longer the level of Russia. Something else. Close to the bottom.
Probably the odds end. I am against it, but it is.

 

[fabienne1996]

Sasha's GOT is literally using a theme from a popular series people liked and most of the program is setting up jumps, some cool transition but there's never an attempt to sell the routine, i wouldn't give it above 7 for performance, and maybe even 6 for interpretation.

And in contrast with what people say, about Trusova not being artistic, i actually think the way she moves is good, you can work on it, she could be much more artistic with a better packaging and some work on posture and gliding, but nobody bothers, it's all about the quads, the levels, and the speed.

Now it's the quad loop, but do we really need another quad when she always falls with the current layout? i don't understand.

With 3 quads and maybe the 3a she could win everything as long as she skates clean. Same with Samsonov, they are pushing it too hard way too early in my opinion.



What could have happened if she won Junior Worlds and got the bronze at JGPF that season? Maybe she would still skate today.

Career decided by those little things.

This is what I am also thinking and saying. That for me there is no connection to daenerys the character she is trying to portray. Literally most of the programm is used for setting up the jumps. And while yes the music is from game of thrones neither piece has soemthing to do with daenerys. There were so many daneyers themes to choose from . At least one should have been used in the programm at least in my eyes.

I am not saying Sasha is bad, she certainly isn't just for me the program was not chosen well , and they aren't trying to perform soemthing connected to the character she is trying to portray

 

[Amei]

I still find it amusing...well actually irritating that some people are forever banging on about Liza not replacing "easy" jumps with "hard" jumps like she's doing it on purpose.

I mean these are some of the hardest jumps you can do, most ladies can't do them in fact. No matter! Liza should still immediately put in three 3As (one in combo) and 2 4Ts(one in combo) in her programs like it's no big deal and the fact they didn't makes Liza and Mishin idiots.

When Aliona did her 3A everyone was so impressed as they should be, but Liza adds a 4T and everyone is all "Where'd the 3A combo go?!"

Guess she needs to toss in a 4A before some if you are impressed by her skill.

It's impressive that she's learned the 4T and that's something to be applauded, but until she's conditioned/trained to be able to do that 4T in addition to her 2 triple axels in the FS, or do the 4T in combination and 1 triple axel then it's pretty much a wash (points-wise) for her to do that jump in competition.

For all the loveliness that is Liza's technique and performance spunk - You have to admit that Liza/Mishin have never been good at either putting together a competitive layout or conditioning her to do a competitive layout.

We can even ignore the triple axels and quads and point out her jumps in the bonus section - From a post of mine on a different thread: In the FS the top 4 finishers at Nationals did at least one 3-3 combination in the bonus of their program, 3 of the 4 did 2. A 3-3 combo in the bonus has a BV over 11 points both of Liza's combinations in the bonus are under 10 points BV, so she needs about 2 points in GOE to get to the BV of the 3-3 of her competitors. At Cup of China, Shcherbakova got an edge call so only a .5 point in GOE and she still got more points for her 3-3 than Liza did for her simpler combo with no errors.

Even in the SP she doesn't back-load her combination. It was 3 seasons ago that Zagitova debuted on the senior circuit with both programs completely back-loaded and there were several junior skaters doing the same style program, and here we are 3 seasons later and Liza still isn't in trained or in conditioning shape to handle putting a 3-3 in the bonus in either the SP or the FS.

 

[Ophelia]

Mishin is terrible at strategizing. At this point I'm baffled at the decisions Tukt's team is making. She's better off getting advice from the internet, and that's saying something.

 

[Nord Stream 2]

It's impressive that she's learned the 4T and that's something to be applauded, but until she's conditioned/trained to be able to do that 4T in addition to her 2 triple axels in the FS, or do the 4T in combination and 1 triple axel then it's pretty much a wash (points-wise) for her to do that jump in competition.

For all the loveliness that is Liza's technique and performance spunk - You have to admit that Liza/Mishin have never been good at either putting together a competitive layout or conditioning her to do a competitive layout.

We can even ignore the triple axels and quads and point out her jumps in the bonus section - From a post of mine on a different thread: In the FS the top 4 finishers at Nationals did at least one 3-3 combination in the bonus of their program, 3 of the 4 did 2. A 3-3 combo in the bonus has a BV over 11 points both of Liza's combinations in the bonus are under 10 points BV, so she needs about 2 points in GOE to get to the BV of the 3-3 of her competitors. At Cup of China, Shcherbakova got an edge call so only a .5 point in GOE and she still got more points for her 3-3 than Liza did for her simpler combo with no errors.

Even in the SP she doesn't back-load her combination. It was 3 seasons ago that Zagitova debuted on the senior circuit with both programs completely back-loaded and there were several junior skaters doing the same style program, and here we are 3 seasons later and Liza still isn't in trained or in conditioning shape to handle putting a 3-3 in the bonus in either the SP or the FS.

She can't do it. That is the problem. Sore back and age. She is still the pride of Russia. We need her for another 2 years. She knows, we know, everyone knows that.

 

[anonymoose_au]

She can't do it. That is the problem. Sore back and age. She is still the pride of Russia. We need her for another 2 years. She knows, we know, everyone knows that.

Exactly! But no-one seems to think that's the reason Mishin arranges her programs that way, because he cares about her health and that's the maximum she can do, no, it must be because he's a senile old dinosaur who doesn't understand rules.

Even Eteri changed Med's layout when it became clear she couldn't handle an almost completely backloaded program. I wager that the same people who defend Eteri doing this are the first in line to ridicule Mishin.

What's dumb is the idea that any coach would purposely undermine their student, but that's basically what some accuse Mishin of.

Try accusing Eteri of that and you get your head bitten off.

 

[Scott512]

Exactly! But no-one seems to think that's the reason Mishin arranges her programs that way, because he cares about her health and that's the maximum she can do, no, it must be because he's a senile old dinosaur who doesn't understand rules.

Even Eteri changed Med's layout when it became clear she couldn't handle an almost completely backloaded program. I wager that the same people who defend Eteri doing this are the first in line to ridicule Mishin.

What's dumb is the idea that any coach would purposely undermine their student, but that's basically what some accuse Mishin of.

Try accusing Eteri of that and you get your head bitten off.

You make some good points. Especially how no way would any coach sabotage his own students by giving them damn program or terrible layouts on purpose .

But perhaps eteri supporters are more reasonable than you give them credit for. Moi for instance.

 

[theharleyquinn]

It's only because Liza and Mishin are often outspoken about scoring that the layout becomes an obvious thing to point to (beyond the obvious deficiencies in PCS and levels). Expectations should match what is put out on the ice.

 

[PaulE]

Thinking about this makes me sad, really sad esp. remembering her desperate tears yesterday which had me choking as well, so I will all the more cherish every past, present and future competition with Aleksandra, because the likes of her (and Anna, Alyona too) I will not see again in my lifetime.

My wife and I used to say to each other how glad we were that we were alive in the era to be able to watch Yuna Kim and Mao Asada. We were also fans of Midori Ito and used to call her "Air Ito." I must say that I am really glad to be alive to watch this season of Eteri's 3 Aces. I am just sad that my wife is not here with me to watch these three perform so wonderfully. Unfortunately and sadly she died about 3 years ago but watching skating helps me keep my memory of her alive.

 

[taylor1]

I really like Anya, but this Firebird program is not 10 points in PCS better than Sasha’s GOT. Anya herself should get high IN and PE scores, but as the latter half of her FS is not matched to the music in any way, I wouldn’t give it higher than an 8.50 in IN (since the first half is actually pretty lined up). I’d put Anya’s PCS around 68.5 and Sasha’s around 64. With only a 4.5 difference in PCS, I don’t see why Anya can afford to land two clean quads and fall once and still beat Alyona (GPF), while Sasha must land all of her quads to win.

Well for starters Sasha's spins are no where near Anna's. For the first half of Sasha's program she laps around the ice, falls on a quad attempt, and laps again. Anna has many transitions throughout her program between jumps. Anna also interprets the music and puts on a performance far more spectacular than Sasha. Sasha's face stays the same while Anya's is constantly changing. Sasha's step sequences are always horrid to watch with her straight legs. So really it makes perfect sense why Anna's PCS was so much higher.

 

[taylor1]

I so agree with that. I think the Games of Thrones program was really a bad choice, because while the idea is good, the music is quite boring and monotone, especially the second half. Last season her Kill Bill program was quite cool, when she landed her combination right on the beat. A program like Alina's Don Quixote (just not a balletic program), where she can land her jumps on a beat, have a great choreo sequence and not one to the most boring part of the music, this all would help her impression on the ice. Something like a Brian Joubert program. He wasn't the most artistic skater, but he could sell his routines.

i just laughed aloud picturing Sasha doing Don Quixote with Alina's red tutu

 

[Lzbee]

You know, it’s weird... I know Alyona’s scores here were pretty inflated and yet, I can’t seem to argue against them. I know she’ll never get anywhere near 260 total, but I can’t help but feel like she should. I mean her elements are deserving of really high GOEs and she has amazing artistry. Even though she had a bad landing on the 3F+3T in the FS, it did still deserve +2 or +3. The -2/-3 for a bad landing in the ISU handbook does not mean that any jump with a bad landing should get -2/-3, but rather you should take -2/-3 off of the GOE the jump has racked up. So for example, Alyona’s 3F+3T checked off all the bullets meaning +5, if you take off 2 or 3 that leaves +3 or +2 GOE. In theory, her score is totally reasonable. Of course, if she really did get 170 in the FS internationally, that would be bad, since you know all the Rika fans will literally go insane.

That's what I've been thinking too. Her GOEs were crazy at nationals but it's hard to argue that she doesnt deserve high GOE. If she's squeaky clean, I can actually see her getting 260 internationally...

Although I would personally have her spins at +3/+4 because whilst she has good centering and speed, her positions could be more interesting.

 

[nussnacker]

Imo, Sasha gives a lot more performance-wise, than people give her credit for.

 

[Edwin]

Imo, Sasha gives a lot more performance-wise, than people give her credit for.

It will be most interesting to see with what composition Aleksandra, Alyona and Anna arrive at Europeans.

No changes made?

Aleksandra will have her dragonfire reined in? She'll probably still strive for all five different quads in one routine, and can do five in training and warm ups ...

Alyona will try her new quad?

Anna will try her new triksel?

When either of them makes a mistake, their TES buffer is still sufficient to medal. Time for experiments?

Still wishing for a Junior Europeans, just like in gymnastics.

 

[McBibus]

Sasha's GOT is literally using a theme from a popular series people liked and most of the program is setting up jumps, some cool transition but there's never an attempt to sell the routine, i wouldn't give it above 7 for performance, and maybe even 6 for interpretation.

And in contrast with what people say, about Trusova not being artistic, i actually think the way she moves is good, you can work on it, she could be much more artistic with a better packaging and some work on posture and gliding, but nobody bothers, it's all about the quads, the levels, and the speed.

The way you describe and "unpackage" PCS is how, at least for me, it should be judged.
Interpretation and performance have little to do with skating skills and transition: the 1st two being purely artistic the latter being technical, and compsition should really be related to how the program is build and put on the ice.
Yet we rarely see more than 0.5 votes between the best and the worst of the 5 categories, like the judges are just adjusting aroung a base "artistic score" they give to the skater.
Like the could not be a girl with marvelous blades, but no musicality or ability to convey the program idea to the audience, or a girl with little technique but that build with her trainer and choreographer a great program composition.

Another thing I hate is that PCS goes up with TES.
You can bet money that Sasha without quads will be badly punished in PCS while will get great numbers if she lands 3 of them.
That could be ok with performance and transitions (impossible to skate a transition while recovering from a fall) because the program will be flowing, but what could possibly have to do with skating skills, intepretation and especially composition?

I appreciate Sasha's interpretation in the short when she's skating and not just preparing for jumps.
That's the problem with quad filled programs (even for men) so much time is spent preparing and recovering from jumps that the actual skating is reduced to a minimun, and that should (theoretically) impact composition, interpretation and performance.

 

[sk8kirsty]

You probably haven’t seen Alain nearby. Bad luck.

Its JOE MAMA

 

[mimithemermaid]

Still wishing for a Junior Europeans, just like in gymnastics.

A Junior Euros would be amazing! I guess I'll consider us lucky for figure skating that we've had Junior Worlds for so long when gymnastics just got them this past summer (and I believe they will be every other year).

 

[Nord Stream 2]

Exactly! But no-one seems to think that's the reason Mishin arranges her programs that way, because he cares about her health and that's the maximum she can do, no, it must be because he's a senile old dinosaur who doesn't understand rules.

Even Eteri changed Med's layout when it became clear she couldn't handle an almost completely backloaded program. I wager that the same people who defend Eteri doing this are the first in line to ridicule Mishin.

What's dumb is the idea that any coach would purposely undermine their student, but that's basically what some accuse Mishin of.

Try accusing Eteri of that and you get your head bitten off.

Only a fool can think that a professor is not able to count to ten.

Mishin’s only problem now is the lack of intuition after Liza and in futile attempts to improve some of his girls. This is an old and probably the right approach to his students. To be together in joy and sorrow.

In past years, real rare butterflies appeared from the caterpillars. Now these are ordinary specimens, of which there are many in any meadow.
Talent and charisma cannot be trained at the rink. It gives no trainer. I don’t understand the lack of promising new skaters in his group.

Nastya Gulyakova has been talking about 3A for 2 years, but with her growth this is not very similar to the truth. Without this, no one is interested in her fate. They talk about her only out of respect for Mishin. Both programs simply humiliate her. She does not stand comparison. I do not believe that in 2020 Russia is ready to show this under its flag at the World Cup, even with force majeure in the main team. Nugumanova, Sakhanovich and even Stasia who lies at the rink are more worthy. Gray is good to wear for work and not for holiday.

Sonya ... Mishin somehow improbably made the European champion out of the middle skater without jumping. But it looks like her ceiling.

Alexey Nikolaevich urgently needs to look for a young girl and boy with a bright personality.

Maybe I'm wrong, everything is fine and soon we will see Suvorov crossing the Alps.

 

[Arbitrary]

Imo, Sasha gives a lot more performance-wise, than people give her credit for.

This isn't an issue. The real problem is having the Board thinking the same. The Russian Board is even harsher to her than the ISU.