2019-20 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating | Page 996 | Golden Skate

2019-20 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

There is retire and prematurely retire.

None of those mentioned were jumping quads left right and center? Was their competitive life cycle fulfilled? Have they ever told the world about their regrets and the hardships and abuse they endured?

Natural wear and tear do take its toll in every high level sport.
Even in chess, players retired over fears of going insane.
 
Sport Express was at the Moscow Cup to report on ‘The Battle of Quads in the Kinder' : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4kMYsaI6zw
Their report opens with the CSKA skaters singing along to Adeliya Petrosyan performing her sequence and spins to ‘Kukushka’
Obviously, all the girls love this powerful track, but stopped singing when they felt the camera upon them.
Nevertheless, a cute moment. These children may be fierce competitors, but are reasonably friendly with each other, meeting at so many competitions during the season.

There were some hard falls too, Samodelkina’s sturdy bun saved her when she fell on her back and her head smacked on the ice, tough girls they are.
 
Alina has not retired, as far as I know, but I’m sure you have some personal connections with her to know that.
She specifically said, she has no intention to retire, but I guess you’d be twisting whatever you can just to help your argument.
Besides, comparing how Alisa‘s career went, and how Alina’s career went, considering they started off together, at the same age with the same coach, I’m not sure one could say Alina would be jealous of what happened to Alisa‘s career.

Pulling out Alisa‘s unsuccessful performances is a good argument. LOL
Just recently Maria Sotskova got a carrot on every single jump, and not because she’s been taught bad technique that didn’t last.

And where’s the magic technician Mishin, who knows how to fix those things, I should be asking?

But none of those things make any difference and don’t matter, because the discussion is now deviating from its purpose:
not only CSKA and Sambo have skaters retiring, those are two of the biggest schools in Russia, of course they have a larger number of top skaters compared to other schools, and of course the numbers will be skewed simply due to the larger number of top skaters.

Saying they are culprits in anything, and no other school had skaters retire is not only untrue, but also kind of ridiculous.

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to convey with your posts.

My point was that Alyona's retirement should be treated more seriously,
cause it's not okay to retire with such talent and potential before even trying in the senior circuit. This was a skater who qualified and medalled at JGPF, and we all know how difficult that is in the current state of ladies skating.

You immediately twisted bringing up other skaters retiring from other groups like Alisa Lozko: i had already explained that to me Alisa, as lovely as she was, had nowhere near the same potientials as Kanysheva, the results she brought were nowhere near as successful in far weaker fields, and the technique needed a complete rework.

Besides that I had already corrected you that was NOT the reason why Alisa had to leave Mishin's school but the fact that she was trying to join Eteri's group mid-season without telling Mishin first.

Pulling out Alisa‘s unsuccessful performances is a good argument. LOL
Just recently Maria Sotskova got a carrot on every single jump, and not because she’s been taught bad technique that didn’t last.

This part is absolute nonsense.

I brought up one of the only two ISU JGP events Alisa, in case you're curious this is the other free skate protocol from the other JGP event

http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/jgpcze2016/jgpcze2016_JuniorLadies_FS_Scores.pdf

Similar situation with all the underrotations and edge call on the lutz. i'll repeat myself again: judges sent the message loud and clear, the technique needed rework.

Go back and watch all the previous years performances from Sotskova at JGP events and her first years in seniors, cause she didn't have nowhere near the same issues with underrotations and her lutz edge is clearly on the outside.

Again apples vs oranges comparisons.

The way i see it with Kanysheva is that she should have tried with another coach (whether is Panova again or someone else) before allowing the retirement cause it totally seemed premature.
 
The way i see it with Kanysheva is that she should have tried with another coach (whether is Panova again or someone else) before allowing the retirement cause it totally seemed premature.

While I'm certainly disappointed for her and wish she hadn't been injured and could've continued to skate in singles if she wanted, I think this statement is uncalled for.

If her injury was so severe that she'd never be able to do triples again, why does it matter what coach she works with? How does trying again with another coach accomplish anything if she physically can't jump?

We don't know the extent of her injuries or what her injury was. I don't see why we are qualified to make judgements on whether she should've moved to ice dance or not. We can't change the past decisions of another person - she was injured, her injury was severe enough to limit her jumping, and she has chosen to switch to ice dance. She's not retiring. She hasn't fallen off the face of the earth. She's moved to the discipline that allows her the best chance to skate competitively while still remaining healthy, and I think that her decision should be supported rather than criticized.
 
While I'm certainly disappointed for her and wish she hadn't been injured and could've continued to skate in singles if she wanted, I think this statement is uncalled for.

If her injury was so severe that she'd never be able to do triples again, why does it matter what coach she works with? How does trying again with another coach accomplish anything if she physically can't jump?

We don't know the extent of her injuries or what her injury was. I don't see why we are qualified to make judgements on whether she should've moved to ice dance or not. We can't change the past decisions of another person - she was injured, her injury was severe enough to limit her jumping, and she has chosen to switch to ice dance. She's not retiring. She hasn't fallen off the face of the earth. She's moved to the discipline that allows her the best chance to skate competitively while still remaining healthy, and I think that her decision should be supported rather than criticized.

Correct me if i'm wrong but she moved to Ice Dance and already training, so while that doesn't prove she can jump, she is not like completely injured that she cannot even walk. (as it often happens, and skaters recover or skate while injured, we've seen that too unfortunately)

Though you're right we don't have a complete report about the state of her injury/ies.
 
Anyone else a bit worried about Vasilieva? She’s pulled out of 2 competitions over the past 2 months and then there’s that drama about her “weight problems.” She’s not my fave skater but I still hope she’s ok.

Wondering if Valieva and Khromyk will try to the quad next week. What day is the ladies sp??
 
Anyone else a bit worried about Vasilieva? She’s pulled out of 2 competitions over the past 2 months and then there’s that drama about her “weight problems.” She’s not my fave skater but I still hope she’s ok.

Wondering if Valieva and Khromyk will try to the quad next week. What day is the ladies sp??

Davydov said she hadn't recovered yet. They hope to compete at Russian Cup Final.
 
I'm not quite sure what you're trying to convey with your posts.

My point was that Alyona's retirement should be treated more seriously,
cause it's not okay to retire with such talent and potential before even trying in the senior circuit. This was a skater who qualified and medalled at JGPF, and we all know how difficult that is in the current state of ladies skating.

You immediately twisted bringing up other skaters retiring from other groups like Alisa Lozko: i had already explained that to me Alisa, as lovely as she was, had nowhere near the same potientials as Kanysheva, the results she brought were nowhere near as successful in far weaker fields, and the technique needed a complete rework.

Besides that I had already corrected you that was NOT the reason why Alisa had to leave Mishin's school but the fact that she was trying to join Eteri's group mid-season without telling Mishin first.



This part is absolute nonsense.

I brought up one of the only two ISU JGP events Alisa, in case you're curious this is the other free skate protocol from the other JGP event

http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/jgpcze2016/jgpcze2016_JuniorLadies_FS_Scores.pdf

Similar situation with all the underrotations and edge call on the lutz. i'll repeat myself again: judges sent the message loud and clear, the technique needed rework.

Go back and watch all the previous years performances from Sotskova at JGP events and her first years in seniors, cause she didn't have nowhere near the same issues with underrotations and her lutz edge is clearly on the outside.

Again apples vs oranges comparisons.

The way i see it with Kanysheva is that she should have tried with another coach (whether is Panova again or someone else) before allowing the retirement cause it totally seemed premature.

Huh? Am I twisting something?

Tolstoj, there goes that situation again, where you go to debate for the sake of debating, even though you know you do get everything.

You claimed that only CSKA and Sambo have skaters of high level retiring, I simply said that’s not true, plenty of examples to prove you wrong, you’re just choosing to ignore it for the sake of your argument, and proving your point.

Besides, I see no point in you proving me that Alisa is cant jump/untalented/unworthy, hence her retirement is somehow totally fine, and that would’ve happened anyways, because you can see the future and have known that all along.
If it’s your opinion that Alisa is totally a minor loss and would’ve never amounted to anything anyways, you can keep it to yourself, because I’m not buying it.

Not that any of it makes any difference, again, this isn’t about Alisa.
I just don’t understand why you’re pretending like no russian coach ever, aside from CSKA and Sambo (which those 2 schools include a lot of different coaches, who are unrelated to each other), are having skaters finish early.

It’s the reality of russian ladies skating all around Russia, from Moscow to Perm, that’s all.

P.S. Lutz edge does not make or break someone’s career, just FYI.
 
Anyone else a bit worried about Vasilieva? She’s pulled out of 2 competitions over the past 2 months and then there’s that drama about her “weight problems.” She’s not my fave skater but I still hope she’s ok.

Wondering if Valieva and Khromyk will try to the quad next week. What day is the ladies sp??

He said she’s not recovered, and then said she has problems associated with puberty too.
Probably a lot of things at once, let’s hope she manages to recover by Cup Final.
 
Huh? Am I twisting something?

Tolstoj, there goes that situation again, where you go to debate for the sake of debating, even though you know you do get everything.

You claimed that only CSKA and Sambo have skaters of high level retiring, I simply said that’s not true, plenty of examples to prove you wrong, you’re just choosing to ignore it for the sake of your argument, and proving your point.

Besides, I see no point in you proving me that Alisa is cant jump/untalented/unworthy, hence her retirement is somehow totally fine, and that would’ve happened anyways, because you can see the future and have known that all along.
If it’s your opinion that Alisa is totally a minor loss and would’ve never amounted to anything anyways, you can keep it to yourself, because I’m not buying it.

Not that any of it makes any difference, again, this isn’t about Alisa.
I just don’t understand why you’re pretending like no russian coach ever, aside from CSKA and Sambo (which those 2 schools include a lot of different coaches, who are unrelated to each other), are having skaters finish early.

It’s the reality of russian ladies skating all around Russia, from Moscow to Perm, that’s all.

P.S. Lutz edge does not make or break someone’s career, just FYI.

I think i made my point very clear with the previous posts.

Now onto the accusations based on nothing:

1) I've never said other coaches have never had similar cases, i actually recall posting few weeks ago that Fedichkina should have continued cause she was very close to win Junior Worlds back in 2016, and her fate was basically determined by a couple of instances were judges unfairly scored her below Marin Honda (imo) and moving to Mishin was a bad idea for her.

I did say the other cases were never as big as the ones Sambo-70 and CSKA saw with skaters who were ready to compete and win medals at the most difficult competitions suddenly retire the year after. I stand by it, it's true.

2) As for Alisa Lozko, there is nothing else to add beyond what i've just said.

- It's NOT the same case as Alyona Kanysheva as Alisa Lozko has never won anything major in Juniors as like a JGPF medal, had only one season in JGP and didn't go well at all, scores were far lower, protocols show where are all her weaknesses and judges didn't pass on them. The skater had a lot to work on the technique still.

- You keep ignoring the fact that her retirement happened not because of Mishin wanting to get rid of her (as it's perhaps happening here, we don't know) but because she broke the rules by trying to switch coaches without consulting.

Alisa's situation is more similar to Daria Panenkova.

We can keep discussing about it when to me we should discuss more about Alyona Kanysheva.

Why a skater goes from one of the most talented in Russia in Ladies Singles in such a tough field - to -> retired from singles skating the year after.

I'd love to hear Panova's comments to that news, cause only 10-12 months ago Alena didn't look like a skater who wanted to retire at all.
 
No surprises there. It also shows that Russian Nationals means literally everything . Not that it matters this year, but GPs and Challengers seem to have little to no effect. Having Guliakova as 2nd alternate is kind of remarkable. She has no international competitions this year that counts for SB, only Denis Ten Memorial and Tallinn Trophy where she scored 175 and 170 points respectively. Vasilieva, Tarakanova, Samodurova, Nugumanova and Sakhanovich all have much better international scores than that. And of course Medvedeva and Zagitova, but I guess those two have decided that they won't compete anymore this season.

It also makes me think about Shulskaya. She was only two points behind Guliakova at RusNats. Had she beaten her she could have been 2nd alternate for Worlds!

This year perhaps might be an anomaly, the decision to go strictly with the top 3 finishers is extremely easy given that the top 3 all won gold at their 2 GP events, 2 of the 3 won their Challenger events (1 didn't go to 1) and the same 3 swept the GPF podium. Plus the 2 skaters (Medvedeva and Zagitova) most capable of challenging those 3 based on a ridiculously high PCS mark both withdrew from nationals and stated their seasons were done. It would have been interesting had Mevedeva and Zagitova competed at Nationals to see where they all finished and how the Fed would have selected them teams, would they have went with Shcherbakova/Kostornaia/Trusova or would they have given a nod to 1 of their decorated seasoned senior skaters based on past medals.

How much does the second alternative really matter outside of a nice prize for skating well at nationals?
 
This year perhaps might be an anomaly, the decision to go strictly with the top 3 finishers is extremely easy given that the top 3 all won gold at their 2 GP events, 2 of the 3 won their Challenger events (1 didn't go to 1) and the same 3 swept the GPF podium. Plus the 2 skaters (Medvedeva and Zagitova) most capable of challenging those 3 based on a ridiculously high PCS mark both withdrew from nationals and stated their seasons were done. It would have been interesting had Mevedeva and Zagitova competed at Nationals to see where they all finished and how the Fed would have selected them teams, would they have went with Shcherbakova/Kostornaia/Trusova or would they have given a nod to 1 of their decorated seasoned senior skaters based on past medals.

How much does the second alternative really matter outside of a nice prize for skating well at nationals?

I think Alina pulled the plug prematurely, as her best could have topped what Sasha showed at Nationals and Euros. However, I'm not sure if even being the third best Russian would be satisfactory for an Olympic champion.
 
I think i made my point very clear with the previous posts.

Now onto the accusations based on nothing:

1) I've never said other coaches have never had similar cases, i actually recall posting few weeks ago that Fedichkina should have continued cause she was very close to win Junior Worlds back in 2016, and her fate was basically determined by a couple of instances were judges unfairly scored her below Marin Honda (imo) and moving to Mishin was a bad idea for her.

I did say the other cases were never as big as the ones Sambo-70 and CSKA saw with skaters who were ready to compete and win medals at the most difficult competitions suddenly retire the year after. I stand by it, it's true.

2) As for Alisa Lozko, there is nothing else to add beyond what i've just said.

- It's NOT the same case as Alyona Kanysheva as Alisa Lozko has never won anything major in Juniors as like a JGPF medal, had only one season in JGP and didn't go well at all, scores were far lower, protocols show where are all her weaknesses and judges didn't pass on them. The skater had a lot to work on the technique still.

- You keep ignoring the fact that her retirement happened not because of Mishin wanting to get rid of her (as it's perhaps happening here, we don't know) but because she broke the rules by trying to switch coaches without consulting.

Alisa's situation is more similar to Daria Panenkova.

We can keep discussing about it when to me we should discuss more about Alyona Kanysheva.

Why a skater goes from one of the most talented in Russia in Ladies Singles in such a tough field - to -> retired from singles skating the year after.

I'd love to hear Panova's comments to that news, cause only 10-12 months ago Alena didn't look like a skater who wanted to retire at all.

Wow, that’s some fact twisting on the next level.
Enlighten me, which rules exactly did Alisa break? And better, provide me with a rule book and point which chapter and clause was the one that she did not follow through.

Ok, enough of this nonsense.
Where are you getting you info from?
According to Alisa, interview of whom I just re-read, she didn’t switch mid season, she tried to do it over the summer, because she did not progress under Mishin for a year and he also did not take her in his summer camp, whereas he took everyone else, but her. She was essentially left alone without coaches. According to Alisa herself.
(and plus even if she tried doing it mid season, switching mid-season is also allowed in some cases, again, FYI.)

And when she was forced to go back, again, not because she broke any rules, but because “Saint Petersburg did not want to lose a promising skater” (a quote from Alisa’s interview, she also says they weren’t provided an explanation), she was later dismissed by Mishin, who also went a step further and told other coaches not to take her.
If that does not count as “Mishin wanting to get rid of her, I don’t know what will”.

it’s baffling to me that you’re trying to turn everything upside down.
You never said “Other cases aren’t as big bla bla”, your literal words are:
“The only groups where you hear about early retirements of single skaters at this very top level are Sambo-70 and CSKA.”

Facts are, that’s not true. Those are not the “only groups” (and calling them groups is also wrong, those aren’t groups). Also, it depends on what you personally consider to be a top level apparently, not what’s actually is a top level? you have your own very special criteria, which is very convenient just to prove your point, right?

According to you, Alisa isn’t top level, because her jumping isn’t to your liking (although she had medals at jgps). Riiiight.
 
I think Alina pulled the plug prematurely, as her best could have topped what Sasha showed at Nationals and Euros. However, I'm not sure if even being the third best Russian would be satisfactory for an Olympic champion.

In hindsight, I do think Alina had it in her to overtake Sasha at Nationals. I wonder what RusFed would've done in that situation ... send your reigning OGM/WGM who placed 3rd at Nationals, or the new quad prodigy who seemed fated to be the next World Champion ... but finished 4th at Nationals.

I always thought that at least one of 3A would be susceptible to being overtaken by one of the veterans. And honestly, Zhenya without her boot issues or Alina without her motivation issues could've clinched the bronze at Nationals. However, we don't know what issues Alina's had with motivation or injuries or even just fatigue. Her GP performances wouldn't have been good enough to beat even a weakened Sasha. Last season's Alina definitely would've been good enough though.
 
I think Alina pulled the plug prematurely, as her best could have topped what Sasha showed at Nationals and Euros. However, I'm not sure if even being the third best Russian would be satisfactory for an Olympic champion.
We could see the Heisenberg Effect of Quants in FS.
The very presence of Zagitova in good shape would change the situation. 3As of TUT would compete in completely different situation and the outcome may be absolutely complicated.
 
I think Alina pulled the plug prematurely, as her best could have topped what Sasha showed at Nationals and Euros. However, I'm not sure if even being the third best Russian would be satisfactory for an Olympic champion.

I think Alina took a real hard blow at NHK when Aliona showed her full potential, and went KO at GPF.
She's never been really strong minded and constantly skating at her best.
She won it all because she had bigger potential, but she even end up losing to Samodurova for example.

Pairing her with Kostornaia may have looked the best option because of no quads, but she ended up being bested in every aspects (no weapons or angles to fight)

She's always been the gir to beat until now
She needs new motivation and a new way to look at competing.

Zenya could beat Sasha if she delivered a rostelecom quality skate.
Totally possible, cause she showed to be a real fighter who love skating above everithinf else in life.
But, being the one to select the teams, I would send Sasha anyway.
 
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