2019-20 U.S. Ladies Figure Skating

[temadd]

I am pleasantly surprised by Karen! I do hope she will defer school and try her darndest to go for one more Olympics. PCS-wise I can see her outdoing Bradie if she continues on this path.

With Bradie, I am a fan, what I feel like what I'm missing from her is a sense of vulnerability. The choreography feels piecemeal at times. But to be fair, all these ladies are still very young. I was not a mature artist at 22. And a decade later I'm still working on it.

I wish that Brady would work with Shae-lynn Bourne. She has a unique ability to choreograph programs that play the skater's strengths whatever they may be.

As much as Bradie has improved artistically I'm not wowed by the choreography. I can't tell if its the choreographer or if it's the skater

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

That Karen was able to break the 200 barrier with limited training this season says a lot about her potential. Karen could certainly be a top US lady, but what worries me is that she is still lacking the drive needed to make international podiums. I was listening to Johnny on the NBC TV broadcast during the Ladies SP and he said he had talked to her after the National Championships about how internationally it's about quads and triple axels. Karen responded that the most important thing to her was her artistry and gave no indication to Johnny that she had any interest in learning new jumps.

I think Karen being in school this year and not having much attention focused on her with the rise of Alysa and Mariah really took a lot of pressure off. She rarely (maybe never?) topped 200 internationally training full-time in the past. So I'm not sure that she'll necessarily find the consistency she needs to move up when she didn't have that in the past.

 

[natsulian]

I think Karen being in school this year and not having much attention focused on her with the rise of Alysa and Mariah really took a lot of pressure off. She rarely (maybe never?) topped 200 internationally training full-time in the past. So I'm not sure that she'll necessarily find the consistency she needs to move up when she didn't have that in the past.

This was Karen’s first total score above 200 internationally. Her last highest score was 199 at 2017 Worlds.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

This was Karen’s first total score above 200 internationally. Her last highest score was 199 at 2017 Worlds.

Yeah, I think it's hard for these skaters who took time off to come back "better than ever," whether we're talking about increased technical merit or improved consistency. Karen always had the occasional good event; they just happened to occur only at Nationals in the past. So I think we'll see her skate well at times and be shakier other times. It's almost the same situation with Gracie. She does great looking things in her practice videos, but technical ability was never her weakness when she was at her best. It's also hard to imagine her coming back and start putting together two clean programs when she had problems doing that in the past. Contrast that with Bradie and Mariah, who came out and topped 200 in almost every event they skated this season (Mariah did every time), and it's hard to see where others challenge them without the top two seniors seeing a dramatic decline in form.

 

[ssffww]

I wish Karen Chen would go to Brian Orser. If he could fix her underrotation issue she could podium at Worlds again. This competition was a big step in the right direction.

Karen Chen never made a World podium. The closest she came was fourth place in 2017.

 

[Lzbee]

Actually I think Mariah is a great example of someone who has managed to "learn consistency", I think it's only this season that she's managed to fully show off her potential. I really hope Karen can do the same because she has the artistry and she has huge jumps with the wow factor.

She'll need at least a triple axel to compete for podiums but she's a joy to watch even without the medals.

 

[skylark]

Finally got a chance to catch up on all the 4CC performances, and what stellar performances they were for US ladies!

Congrats to Bradie on her bronze! (although I kept thinking if she hadn't had that mistake on the first combo it would have been silver...argh). Bradie has really sent the message that she is here to stay. Removing Evgenia (who won't be at Worlds) Bradie is now the top lady without a triple axel or quad. I find this mind-boggling.

It truly is. What has amazed me all year is Bradie's composure (like skating in the GPF and not letting that field of competition rattle her) and her clear intention of finding a way to compete while being true to herself. While also making steady improvements on the presentation front.

Proud of both Karen and Amber. Even with the mistakes (not sure why she kept popping her axel), I think that is Amber's best FS to date. That score will put her in good stead for future GPs and hopefully she won't have to rely on a SA host spot next season.

I'm so with you on this. I think Amber picked music that would give her passion and confidence ... and it worked. She followed through.

I was listening to Johnny on the NBC TV broadcast during the Ladies SP and he said he had talked to her after the National Championships about how internationally it's about quads and triple axels. Karen responded that the most important thing to her was her artistry and gave no indication to Johnny that she had any interest in learning new jumps. I know that emotional, beautiful skating is important to her (and to us as fans) but the landscape of ladies skating has really changed.

It has, and I'm sure she's aware. In fact, this could possibly explain Karen's spotty performances this year. She knows her priorities (i.e. what she said to Johnny), and doing quads and triple axels aren't hers. So that could create uncertainty about her drive to compete at the level she's at. Personally, I love that she was brave enough to say it, and brave enough to skate her own brand of emotional, beautiful skating. Someone needs to be vocal and stand up for those values. Karen can stay competitive for a long time with the skating qualities she has ... whether or not she gets assignments to Worlds. She can be a voice and an example for others like her. Keep bringing us happiness, Karen!

Karen Chen never made a World podium. The closest she came was fourth place in 2017.

:agree: Right. It's still only Ashley Wagner who's made a World podium :yes2: for the past 13 years.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Karen start working on the 3A, and landing it, at some point in the near future. I actually think it could improve her other jumps like it did for Mirai, because both had a similar issue with delaying the start of rotation a bit too long. Her shot at an Olympic medal is to get in the team event by being one of the top two Americans, and she'll have to take some big risks to achieve that.

 

[b-man]

We are a very shallow society sometimes. And Gracie has the face.

But in 2014-2016 Gracie did have quite a few sponsorship deals - She and Ashley both worked with Covergirl, Gracie was featured on the United Airlines, Gracie had RedBull, she even was invited to Japan for a makeup line there. Gracie did and does have more of the it factor that attracts sponsors. She is currently sponsored by Julep, as I know has been discussed in here and was obvious with all of the merch she was wearing. They did photo shoots and other promos right after nationals in NYC. They had a skate with Gracie at Bryant park. And Gracie's story is good. In some ways skating is hard to predict. I think that in 2016 most assumed that the 2018 Olympic team would be the same as the 2014 team. Gracie and Ashley were at their peak, and in the beginning of 2016 at Nationals and after Polina was on the rise. Even after Gracie faltered in her World Long program, I don't think anyone could have predicted the next several years in her life, and it seemed like losing Gracie, Ashley lost her fire too. I think that the competition between the two with Polina nipping at their heals and a young Karen right below her inspired Gracie and Ashley to fight harder and train harder. So Yes, Bradie and MAriah and Alysa could be the team in 2022, but also it could be a drastically different roster. It could be Gracie in the mix, it could be Hanna Harrel or Ting, it could be Amber Glenn, or it could be someone that we don't even really have on our radar right now. But if Gracie makes the team in 2022, she would be media Gold, and I wouldn't even be surprised to see a made for TV (or made for Netflix) movie of her story. Because she's got a good story. And she's got a good face and she has a good name too, made for this sport. I remember maybe it was 2016 nationals or even a few years earlier, but they showed pictures from Gracie and Ashley's social media of them in snow - kind of how I spent my christmas break, and Ashley's was sexy like a hottub in the snow in a bikini and Gracie was in this cute big sweater, and it was adorable and wholesome and 100% girl next door. So they had the brash outspoken a little wild Ashley and then they had girl next door Gracie (at least that was what was portrayed in the media, I do l know that Gracie in real like is very sarcastic.) But they had media gold with the pair and then Polina was the threat to them. Like movie/tv gold.

I've always found this topic of interest, our lady senior skaters, and who gets sponsors, and who doesn't. I don't really take issue with anything you said, except you omitted/ snubbed my particular favorite, but she was largely snubbed by sponsors as well.

If we look at participation in nationals, we find:
Wagner 11 nationals
Nagasu 11
Czisny 8
Flatt 7
Mariah 7
Gold 6 + WD
Chen 5 + WD
Tennell 5

Since sponsorships are usually associated with Olympics, its best to review Olympic participation/results. At nationals for the Vancouver games, Flatt was declared champ controversially over Nagasu, wth Wagner in 3rd missing the team. Nagasu finished 4th in the games and Flatt 7th, with neither receiving significant sponsors.

Moving on to 2014 Nationals Gold won after 2 years Of wagner wins, with Edmunds 2nd Nagasu 3rd, apparently securing the final spot, and Wagner 4th. The selection committee moved Wagner onto the team, removing Nagasu. deciding it was fine for 1st yr senior Edmunds to have the Olympics as a first international assignment, and besides, you could not remove a skater finishing 2nd (see Ross Miner.) Of course their were conflicts, NBC had already spent money filming Wagner for the Olympics, and both Wagner and USFS were sponsored by the same people, i.e. Cover Girl and puffs both P&G companies. Mustn't upset the sponsor. So Wagner got sponsors Nike , Pandora, Covergirl. I think gold got similar, which were worth an estimated $500k to $1 million at the time. Nagasu, having again bested Wagner in an Olympic year nationals, got to watch the games on a rooftop in LA.

https://www.theatlantic.com/culture...r-isnt-ashley-wagner-its-her-sponsors/357009/

Moving on to 2016, Gold and Wagner had terrific performances at Boston Worlds. Gold had a small bobble, beat herself up, and her career went downhill. Yes, she is very attractive and had "the look."

https://www.aceshowbiz.com/images/wennpic/gracie-gold-premiere-divergent-06.jpg

I am still of the opinion this is a nice look as well:

https://akns-images.eonline.com/eol...4-mirai-nagasu-2018-oscars-academy-awards.jpg

It didn't seem to take a backseat to anything at the Oscar's, but evidently not good enough for covergirl.

 

[b-man]

Pt 2

Moving on to the Korea games, we find Tennell is a solid No 1 from San Jose Nats, Nagasu again ahead of Wagner for the 3rd time in an Olympic year, Karen in 3rd., and Wagner claiming underscored in PCS, in 4th and off the team barring an action by the selection committee. Nagasu, who has learned the 3A at age 24, finishes 2nd in the team FS with an 8 triple performance, And Tennell does well also, giving the US a team bronze. Individually, Bradie, Mirai, and Karen finish 9, 10, and 11.

Well, the b-man figures, since Bradie and Mirai are actually in the Olympics, and Wagner is not, and since Mirai has finished ahead of Wagner in the third consecutive Olympic year Nationals, that Mirai and Bradie will now share in this 6 figure sponsorship moneys. The silly b-man clearly knows nothing.

https://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com.../Marketing-and-Sponsorship/Ashley-Wagner.aspx

Another kick in the pants. We have a Japanese car company wanting to run an add with a US lady skater. Although the add didn't feature their Mirai model, they do sell a car with that name. And they choose for the add MMMiirra, no you silly b-man, Ashley gets the great gig to sell Toyota.

So Bradie and Mirai get team bronze, which Ashley./ Gracie already had from Sochi, but Wagner gets more real gold.

Pt 3 So Mirai weasals an invitation to the DWTS tv show. After one week, its clear she and Rippon are way ahead of the rest in dancing ability, no real contest here. The producers hyped the show, after the "Tonya" movie, as a showdown between Rippon and a middle aged no longer flexible Harding. Finalists are rumored to pick up around $300k for this show. So this should be an easy $300k for Nagasu and Rippon. Silly b-man. New rules are invented, their must be a skate off between Rippon and Nagasu prior to the finals, with viewers then selecting the popular Rippon over Nagasu to face the slow and aging Harding in the final show.

So, the b- man is still angry, 6 yrs later, about the 2014 decision, still mad about sponsors, still angry with DWTS. Your views may differ. Rant is over.

 

[skylark]

So, the b- man is still angry, 6 yrs later, about the 2014 decision, still mad about sponsors, still angry with DWTS. Your views may differ. Rant is over.

https://www.ispot.tv/ad/wlqH/bridgestone-potenza-tires-quintuple-axel-featuring-ashley-wagner

Pictures and humor are worth a thousand words. Ashley Wagner is splendid at doing tongue-in-cheek and poking fun at herself, all while displaying her charm and skill. I'd say, you can't blame advertisers for valuing those qualities. But apparently, with all that anger being banked and nursed, you can.

I'm an admirer of Mirai too, and my impression of her is that she's happy with what she accomplished and not angry.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Pictures and humor are worth a thousand words. Ashley Wagner is splendid at doing tongue-in-cheek and poking fun at herself, all while displaying her charm and skill. I'd say, you can't blame advertisers for valuing those qualities. But apparently, with all that anger being banked and nursed, you can.

I think a lot of Ashley's appeal, both to fans and her sponsors, is due to her authenticity. After following her awhile, you felt like you knew her and what she was all about. I don't think that was the case with a lot of skaters who come off guarded and rehearsed in interviews, like Gracie (pre-2018), Karen, or Mirai. Alysa is another skater whose personality comes out in interviews, and I expect she too will do well with sponsors once she becomes a senior and is able to compete for bigger prizes.

 

[b-man]

https://www.ispot.tv/ad/wlqH/bridgestone-potenza-tires-quintuple-axel-featuring-ashley-wagner

Pictures and humor are worth a thousand words. Ashley Wagner is splendid at doing tongue-in-cheek and poking fun at herself, all while displaying her charm and skill. I'd say, you can't blame advertisers for valuing those qualities. But apparently, with all that anger being banked and nursed, you can.

I'm an admirer of Mirai too, and my impression of her is that she's happy with what she accomplished and not angry.

Can't disagree with you. It would have been nice if just one of those many, many major deals received by Wagner/ Gold could have gone to Nagasu. If sponsors found Mirai somehow lacking in charm and skill, they are masters in bringing those qualities out in adds which are often shot multiple tines. They didn't bother.

Also agree Nagasu appears happy with no anger. Clearly a person of very high character.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Can't disagree with you. It would have been nice if just one of those many, many major deals received by Wagner/ Gold could have gone to Nagasu. If sponsors found Mirai somehow lacking in charm and skill, they are masters in bringing those qualities out in adds which are often shot multiple tines. They didn't bother.

Also agree Nagasu appears happy with no anger. Clearly a person of very high character.

I don't think it's an apples-to-apples comparison between Ashley and Mirai. Ashley was a Nationals podium contender every year between 2008 and 2018 based on relatively strong GP results. She earned at least one GP medal every season except 2008 when she had two 4th place finishes. Gracie also was a Nationals gold medal favorite, and international podium contender, for the four years of her peak abilities. Mirai was a lot more up-and-down, failing to win a GP medal several different seasons following her Nationals title.

 

[skylark]

don't think it's an apples-to-apples comparison between Ashley and Mirai. Ashley was a Nationals podium contender every year between 2008 and 2018 based on relatively strong GP results. She earned at least one GP medal every season except 2008 when she had two 4th place finishes. Gracie also was a Nationals gold medal favorite, and international podium contender, for the four years of her peak abilities. Mirai was a lot more up-and-down, failing to win a GP medal several different seasons following her Nationals title.

I think a lot of Ashley's appeal, both to fans and her sponsors, is due to her authenticity. After following her awhile, you felt like you knew her and what she was all about. I don't think that was the case with a lot of skaters who come off guarded and rehearsed in interviews, like Gracie (pre-2018), Karen, or Mirai. Alysa is another skater whose personality comes out in interviews, and I expect she too will do well with sponsors once she becomes a senior and is able to compete for bigger prizes.

Authenticity. That's it exactly, well said. And it's important to look at the actual skating results that Ashley had for the whole 10-year period from 2008 to 2018. It just shows why the whole story isn't what happens at nationals every four years.

 

[skylark]

Can't disagree with you. It would have been nice if just one of those many, many major deals received by Wagner/ Gold could have gone to Nagasu. If sponsors found Mirai somehow lacking in charm and skill, they are masters in bringing those qualities out in adds which are often shot multiple tines. They didn't bother.

Also agree Nagasu appears happy with no anger. Clearly a person of very high character.

Mirai has oodles of charm and skill. Driving Miss Daisy did a much better job than I did of explaining the difference between Ashley's skating record and results over the years, from Mirai's. And it was Ashley's results internationally that made the difference.

 

[macy]

TBH, i'm not sure if we will ever see a clean 3A or quad from Karen. yes she gets the height and has huge jumps, but she has a big UR problem even on her triples because of the delayed rotation. i think training a quad would help her with that issue and getting a faster snap on takeoffs, but i think seeing a clean quad is a long shot. she just doesn't have the rotational speed.

 

[elliana]

TBH, i'm not sure if we will ever see a clean 3A or quad from Karen. yes she gets the height and has huge jumps, but she has a big UR problem even on her triples because of the delayed rotation. i think training a quad would help her with that issue and getting a faster snap on takeoffs, but i think seeing a clean quad is a long shot. she just doesn't have the rotational speed.

How hard is it to fix the rotational speed?

 

[mskater93]

It isn’t rotational speed in Karen Chen’s situation but rather how quickly she starts her rotations from the point of take off (ie delayed rotation). In general, it is difficult to change how fast you rotate jumps, but beginning the rotation sooner can be learned, but hard to change over night. I’d honestly say, it is time to work with a jump specialist that is not part of the existing team to make this work. Sometimes it isn’t what is said but how it is said that makes something click that didn’t before

 

[skylark]

It isn’t rotational speed in Karen Chen’s situation but rather how quickly she starts her rotations from the point of take off (ie delayed rotation). In general, it is difficult to change how fast you rotate jumps, but beginning the rotation sooner can be learned, but hard to change over night. I’d honestly say, it is time to work with a jump specialist that is not part of the existing team to make this work. Sometimes it isn’t what is said but how it is said that makes something click that didn’t before

So true, in all walks of life. Many moons ago, delayed rotation was a positive. Dick Button used to point it out admiringly. I wish it still could be, because I think delayed rotations are beautiful. But in today's scoring system, it costs too many points if it causes underrotation. However, a little ornery part of me wonders if an ornery little part of Karen likes to do her jumps that way. I'm not a mind-reader, so I don't know, but the thought intrigues.