2019-20 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[Pantsu]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VziXOiM8Jaw -- Anna's quad lutz not only has an inside edge, it also only is just over 3.00 revolutions.

When her toepick hits the ice her edge is flat. That's all what matters.

The author of that bs video doesn't apply his trick to Boyang. Should we call that flat ?
https://imgur.com/a/QIImetQ

 

[Jontor]

Meanwhile, maybe some pointless statistics?

Number of GPs Russian Ladies have appeared in:

1. Irina Slutskaya 33 (had 3 assignments 3 years)
2. Elena Sokolova 26 (had 3 assignments 1 year)
3. Maria Butyrskaya 25 (had 3 assignments 4 years)
4=. Alena Leonova 22 (had 3 assignments 1 year)
4=. Elizaveta Tuktamysheva 22
6. Viktoria Volchkova 18 (had 3 assignments 3 years)
7. Elena Radionova 14
8=. Anna Pogorilaya 12
8=. Evgenia Medvedeva 12
10. Yulia Lipnitskaya 11
11=. Maria Sotskova 9
11=. Alina Zagitova 9
13=. Olga Markova 8
13=. Adelina Sotnikova 8
15. Ksenia Makarova 6

 

[Jontor]

And here we have the 3A's average GOE on all elements for the 5 international competitions they have competed in this season

Kostornaia (Finlandia, IdF, NHK, GPF, Euros)
Short 2,85 GOE
Long 2,42 GOE
Total 2,57 GOE

Shcherbakova (Lombardia, SA, CoC, GPF, Euros)
Short 2,11 GOE
Long 1,42 GOE
Total 1,62 GOE

Trusova (Nepela, SC, Rost, GPF, Euros)
Short 2,18 GOE
Long 1,36 GOE
Total 1,59 GOE

 

[Jontor]

Results of the combined mens/ladies event at Russian Nationals with the same PCS factoring

1. Anna Shcherbakova 289.32
2. Alena Kostornaia 288.68
3. Dmitri Aliev 260.98
4. Artur Danielian 253.42
5. Alexander Samarin 252.74
6. Alexandra Trusova 252.33
7. Makar Ignatov 249.46
8. Andrei Mozalev 240.55
9. Daniil Samsonov 240.21
10. Petr Gumennik 238.08
11. Anton Shulepov 237.76
12. Sergei Voronov 233.82
13. Elizaveta Tuktamysheva 230.38
14. Kseniia Sinitsyna 227.41
15. Andrei Zuber 225.77

 

[Sugar Coated]

Thank you, i disagree, it is slightly outside. How can you call that a "flutz" is beyond me

Agreed, I slowed it down considerably. It's hard to see but to me looks slightly outside. Based on the angle of her leg, I'd give her the benefit of the doubt but could see how one might call it flat. Definitely not a flutz and her Olympic edges were textbook from my untrained eye.

 

[Tolstoj]

Yes and I am repeating all this for a 2000th time mainly because of the ISU officials, who I am sure are reading this forum. I hope that If many people complain, the rules are going to be changed - slow motion reviewing for the jumps, deduction of excessive prerotation and bad edges, higher GOE for toe pick assisted jumps, etc.

If you want to scrutinize jumps (and i think they should) you have to do it for every single skater, then you'd realize that Bradie's jumps are 99% of the times underrotated and prerotated, Kaori Sakamoto has a flutz too, Satoko Miyahara's jumps are all massively prerotated, Rika also prerotates a lot etc. It's not just the russians.

And one valuable advice i can give you that apply in this case but in general in life, is that if you want to debate you have to be as open minded and objective as possible, otherwise if you just try to pass your opinion as the only truth, you're wrong even if you're right.

This is particularly related to those channels who wanted to create controversy against ISU just because their favourite skater lost gold at the Olympics. Yes many of their complaints are right but going after a single athlete because she won, or throwing shades is only going to make that person look bad.

Then i'd agree that judges should start to look more closely at the edges, and in my opinion even create a new rule on full blade assistance, cause lutz, toe, flip are all toe jumps, if the full blade is on the ice than that jump becomes a loop. That's a trick many skaters has kept doing for decades now to make their lutzes or flips more consistent taking advantage of the lack of a proper rule against it.

In regards to pre-rotation it's always going to be controversial cause all jumps are prerotated to a certain degree, the question is deciding when is too much and i feel that's always going to be subjective. Though as previously stated when it's clearly too much that it makes triples look double or quads look triples to me judges should consider that in the GOE.

And btw these are all things i'm sure we all know this, as much as people want to hide things for the sake of cheering for a particular skater or a coach, yes it's objectively true that for instance Tuktamysheva's jumping technique is still the best one among the russian ladies even looking at all those newcomers: one of the best air position, best lutz technique, no full blade assistance,...

But look with the current GOE system (more like the way judges use those guidelines), a lutz e with an overlooked inside edge but done with more speed and transitions will get higher GOE than a properly done lutz. I feel that's one big flaw of the current judging system, they wanted to push this idea of making jumps more and more effortless that they stopped caring about the actual quality of the jump itself in my opinion.

a flip done with an outside edge, even if it is done with the most stunning entrance at crazy speed, it's still not properly executed.

 

[Good Vibes Only]

If you want to scrutinize jumps (and i think they should) you have to do it for every single skater, then you'd realize that Bradie's jumps are 99% of the times underrotated and prerotated, Kaori Sakamoto has a flutz too, Satoko Miyahara's jumps are all massively prerotated, Rika also prerotates a lot etc. It's not just the russians.

And one valuable advice i can give you that apply in this case but in general in life, is that if you want to debate you have to be as open minded and objective as possible, otherwise if you just try to pass your opinion as the only truth, you're wrong even if you're right.

This is particularly related to those channels who wanted to create controversy against ISU just because their favourite skater lost gold at the Olympics. Yes many of their complaints are right but going after a single athlete because she won, or throwing shades is only going to make that person look bad.

Then i'd agree that judges should start to look more closely at the edges, and in my opinion even create a new rule on full blade assistance, cause lutz, toe, flip are all toe jumps, if the full blade is on the ice than that jump becomes a loop. That's a trick many skaters has kept doing for decades now to make their lutzes or flips more consistent taking advantage of the lack of a proper rule against it.

In regards to pre-rotation it's always going to be controversial cause all jumps are prerotated to a certain degree, the question is deciding when is too much and i feel that's always going to be subjective. Though as previously stated when it's clearly too much that it makes triples look double or quads look triples to me judges should consider that in the GOE.

And btw these are all things i'm sure we all know this, as much as people want to hide things for the sake of cheering for a particular skater or a coach, yes it's objectively true that for instance Tuktamysheva's jumping technique is still the best one among the russian ladies even looking at all those newcomers: one of the best air position, best lutz technique, no full blade assistance,...

But look with the current GOE system (more like the way judges use those guidelines), a lutz e with an overlooked inside edge but done with more speed and transitions will get higher GOE than a properly done lutz. I feel that's one big flaw of the current judging system, they wanted to push this idea of making jumps more and more effortless that they stopped caring about the actual quality of the jump itself in my opinion.

a flip done with an outside edge, even if it is done with the most stunning entrance at crazy speed, it's still not properly executed.

Seeing that you are so passionate about correct edges and technique, you should post about it in a thread dedicated to it. If I remember correctly there was a thread a while back titled “flutz and lip” you could post something about it in there or you could start your own thread with your proposal of a possible rule change. That way people who like to discuss edges and technique can talk about it with you.

While edges on jumps and jump technique are important and I like reading about it occasionally, I primarily come to this thread to read people’s posts about the russian ladies. I don’t want to read through pages about posts arguing about edges and technique. I am sure that I am not the only one who feels this way. I am not trying to be mean but I am just trying to offer suggestions that would allow me to only read about the russian ladies and for you to discuss edges and technique.

 

[Jontor]

All this Lutz talk and edges and I think that people don't know or have forgotten about what a Lutz is really about.

The idea of the Lutz is that you jump in the opposite direction from the edge that you have.

Look at this - at 0:48
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoaDbxfjqas
Maria Butyrskaya at 1996 worlds. She holds her deep outside edge and as a result she is drawing a circle from the right side of the rink to the left. Then she jumps in the other direction. That's a Lutz (bad landing, but still textbook execution).

Then look at this - at 0:38
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7dmp_GaJcw&t=195s
Maria at 1998 Olympics. She has changed her technique here and goes into the Lutz in a straight line (=flat edge) and then changes her edge to an outside edge just before takeoff. This is also a Lutz - BUT here the whole idea of the Lutz is gone. She is not jumping in the opposite direction. She just changed her edge JUST before takeoff.

This latter technique is used by EVERYONE since the late 90s. And I think it's hilarious that people use Yuna Kim as a textbook example as she always went into her Lutz in a STRAIGHT line, which means it's a flat edge, then she changes her edge before takeoff, and the whole idea of the Lutz is gone.

What the ISU should do is to redefine what a Lutz really is. Is it the Lutz that Maria did in 1996?, well then everyone should get edge calls now, because no one just doesn't jump a proper Lutz like that anymore.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

If you want to scrutinize jumps (and i think they should) you have to do it for every single skater, then you'd realize that Bradie's jumps are 99% of the times underrotated and prerotated , Kaori Sakamoto has a flutz too, Satoko Miyahara's jumps are all massively prerotated, Rika also prerotates a lot etc. It's not just the russians.

And one valuable advice i can give you that apply in this case but in general in life, is that if you want to debate you have to be as open minded and objective as possible, otherwise if you just try to pass your opinion as the only truth, you're wrong even if you're right.

This is particularly related to those channels who wanted to create controversy against ISU just because their favourite skater lost gold at the Olympics. Yes many of their complaints are right but going after a single athlete because she won, or throwing shades is only going to make that person look bad.

Then i'd agree that judges should start to look more closely at the edges, and in my opinion even create a new rule on full blade assistance, cause lutz, toe, flip are all toe jumps, if the full blade is on the ice than that jump becomes a loop. That's a trick many skaters has kept doing for decades now to make their lutzes or flips more consistent taking advantage of the lack of a proper rule against it.

In regards to pre-rotation it's always going to be controversial cause all jumps are prerotated to a certain degree, the question is deciding when is too much and i feel that's always going to be subjective. Though as previously stated when it's clearly too much that it makes triples look double or quads look triples to me judges should consider that in the GOE.

And btw these are all things i'm sure we all know this, as much as people want to hide things for the sake of cheering for a particular skater or a coach, yes it's objectively true that for instance Tuktamysheva's jumping technique is still the best one among the russian ladies even looking at all those newcomers: one of the best air position, best lutz technique, no full blade assistance,...

But look with the current GOE system (more like the way judges use those guidelines), a lutz e with an overlooked inside edge but done with more speed and transitions will get higher GOE than a properly done lutz. I feel that's one big flaw of the current judging system, they wanted to push this idea of making jumps more and more effortless that they stopped caring about the actual quality of the jump itself in my opinion.

a flip done with an outside edge, even if it is done with the most stunning entrance at crazy speed, it's still not properly executed.

Here’s Bradie’s 4CC freeskate. Feel free to scrutinize and let us know specifically which of her jumping passes were “under rotated and pre rotated”. All 99% of them.

https://youtu.be/ij0jfFXfNYI

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

I'm pretty sure a lutz is supposed to have a straight entrance. A skater starts on a flat edge and either gradually shifts outside, or switches the edge right before takeoff. A lutz only needs two qualities, an outside edge, and straight entrance.

 

[Jontor]

I'm pretty sure a lutz is supposed to have a straight entrance. A skater starts on a flat edge and either gradually shifts outside, or switches the edge right before takeoff. A lutz only needs two qualities, an outside edge, and straight entrance.

Yes, that's how it's been done for the last 20+ years. But that's not what the Lutz is all about. You are supposed to jump in opposite of your blade direction. Go watch Lutzes from the 80s and the early 90s. Totally different.

The requirement that the Lutz should be on an outside edge is because that means you are going into one direction and jumps in the opposite.
A straight entrance peals off that effect.

From Wikipedia:
The ISU defines the lutz jump as "a toe-pick assisted jump with an entrance from a back outside edge and landing on the back outside edge of the opposite foot". Skaters tend to go into it with a long, diagonal take-off into one of the corners of the rink. It is a difficult jump because it is counter-rotational, which means that the skater sets it up by twisting in one way and jumping in the other. Many skaters "cheat" the jump because they are not strong enough to maintain the counter-rotational edge, resulting in taking off from the wrong edge. A "cheated" lutz jump without an outside edge is called a "flutz".

 

[dunffvanstorn]

Now right technique lutzes are wrong, and flat edged ones are vintage old school lutzes...

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Are there any videos of Sasha landing a 3Axel? Somehow I’ve never seen one of it exists.



Sorry for going back on topic eace:

 

[composer]

All this Lutz talk and edges and I think that people don't know or have forgotten about what a Lutz is really about.

The idea of the Lutz is that you jump in the opposite direction from the edge that you have.

Look at this - at 0:48
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoaDbxfjqas
Maria Butyrskaya from 1996 worlds. She holds her deep outside edge and as a result she is drawing a circle from the right side of the rink to the left. Then she jumps in the other direction. That's a Lutz.

Then look at this - at 0:38
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7dmp_GaJcw&t=195s
Maria at 1998 Olympics. She has changed her technique here and goes into the Lutz in a straight line (=flat edge) and then changes her edge to an outside edge just before takeoff. This is also a Lutz - BUT here the whole idea of the Lutz is gone. She is not jumping in the opposite direction. She just changed her edge JUST before takeoff.

This latter technique is used by EVERYONE since the late 90s. And I think it's hilarious that people use Yuna Kim as a textbook example as she always went into her Lutz in a STRAIGHT line, which means it's a flat edge, and the whole idea of the Lutz is gone.

What the ISU should do is to redefine what a Lutz really is. Is it the Lutz that Maria did in 1996?, well then everyone should get edge calls now, because no one just doesn't jump a proper Lutz like that anymore.

That 96 lutz jump is really wow in spite of the bad landing. The way she jumps in the opposite direction to where she was going. I’ll have to admit I like this definition in part because it also makes it a lot easier to differentiate flips and lutzes in real time even for the casual viewer.

 

[eterislouisvuitton]

Are there any videos of Sasha landing a 3Axel? Somehow I’ve never seen one of it exists.



Sorry for going back on topic eace:

Yes, actually there are a few. There is one from GPF training, one that Eteri posted on insta right before GPF, then there are some vids of her doing 3A, 4S, 4Lz+3T+eu+3S and such in the Euros gala. Most of them can be found on the BossT channel on Youtube, which posts a lot of skating stuff from around the world but mostly Russian, especially the younger ones. Here is one of them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgPcVRfoET4

 

[halulupu]

Seeing that you are so passionate about correct edges and technique, you should post about it in a thread dedicated to it. If I remember correctly there was a thread a while back titled “flutz and lip” you could post something about it in there or you could start your own thread with your proposal of a possible rule change. That way people who like to discuss edges and technique can talk about it with you.

While edges on jumps and jump technique are important and I like reading about it occasionally, I primarily come to this thread to read people’s posts about the russian ladies. I don’t want to read through pages about posts arguing about edges and technique. I am sure that I am not the only one who feels this way. I am not trying to be mean but I am just trying to offer suggestions that would allow me to only read about the russian ladies and for you to discuss edges and technique.

Well if most of the top russian ladies would have perfect jump technique, the need for disussing it would stop to exist.

 

[KOBOT37]

Talking with NadezhdaNadya about Anna is like talking with Skip Bayless about LeBron James- utterly useless. You aren't going to convince someone with so deep emotional involvement that she is wrong.

 

[KOBOT37]

Well if most of the top russian ladies would have perfect jump technique, the need for disussing it would stop to exist.

Sure, Anna's technique isn't perfect but she isn't getting +5s for her jumps either.

What is the problem?

 

[Resa]

Are there any videos of Sasha landing a 3Axel? Somehow I’ve never seen one of it exists.



Sorry for going back on topic eace:

I can't give you a video, but I've seen her landing two in GPF practice right before my eyes. She did land them. They looked like solid 3As. Not as huge as Aliona's but also not small.

 

[KOBOT37]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VziXOiM8Jaw -- Anna's quad lutz not only has an inside edge, it also only is just over 3.00 revolutions.

This video is textbook ( ) example why I think talking about Anna's technique is pointless.

Not only does this video compare Anna to Boyang, who sort of compete in different disciplines and also the fact that GOE of jumps doesn't depend on only jumps themselves but also entries, exist and even how it is attached to music, but it blatantly lies about both edge and rotation length.

Whoever made this vide and whoever applauded it simply doesn't care about truth, they are to point of blindness subjective.