That's the point, his edge changes from deep outside to flat, while he is still being on the ice. I don't get that condition "more into the air". And i don't see that in the ISU video on 0,25 or frame by frame. It is either you are on the ice or in the air
2019-20 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating
- Thread starter Spirals for Miles
- Start date
That's the point, his edge changes from deep outside to flat, while he is still being on the ice. I don't get that condition "more into the air". And i don't see that in the ISU video on 0,25 or frame by frame. It is either you are on the ice or in the air
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2017
Yes, I changed that with "already going into the air". Plus, refresh the page and read my post with the pictures.
Here is another one for you. Maybe ISU has flat edge too:
https://ibb.co/SfGGdQW
- Joined
- Apr 17, 2018
Why are we arguing whether or not Boyang Jin has a correct lutz edge? He obviously does. He's practically the textbook example of lutz. We look at the edge when the skater begins to take off, not when they are already in the air, or exactly when the toe picks. Begins to take off as in when the body begins to rotate, but both skates are still on the ice.
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2017
Totally agree with you! I guess some people would never admit that their favourites have imperfect technique and at the same time are trying prove with fake proofs that the skaters with perfect technique do not have perfect technique either.
- Joined
- Apr 17, 2018
This video is textbook () example why I think talking about Anna's technique is pointless.
Not only does this video compare Anna to Boyang, who sort of compete in different disciplines and also the fact that GOE of jumps doesn't depend on only jumps themselves but also entries, exist and even how it is attached to music, but it blatantly lies about both edge and rotation length.
Whoever made this vide and whoever applauded it simply doesn't care about truth, they are to point of blindness subjective.
I actually think the video was really well made, I would've liked it if didn't end implying that Anna cheated or anything. But I have to agree with the video, just because Anna and Boyang compete in different disciplines doesn't mean that they have different examples of "textbook" lutz technique. Comparing the two in terms of edge and PR is fine, height and distance is a different topic. It doesn't actually lie about rotation length nor edge, and you can see from the video that Anna does shift slightly inside/flat, and she does PR a good amount more than Boyang. I agree that Anna's 4Lz should get +GOE because of its various other qualities, but the video is correct in terms of PR and edge.
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2018
The meanness of this video is that they take the best Boyan's lutz and worst Anya's lutz. Next, haters and trolls makes a generalization, that this is her usual Lutz. And then they start telling stories about "three rotations" in Anya's 4Lz
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2018
Reviewing the junior national today, I noticed that in K&C Ksenia's coaches discussing (as far as I could understand) that she made mistakes with the choreo.
Panova - "...it was strange, like a crash from the course, I thought "why it ... different side.." "
Moiseeva to Panova: "she mixed up axel", to Ksenia - "You did it... diffrent.... jumped... Look!.."
Having carefully compared with other performances of this program, I realized that Ksenia made a mistake - here (some time after the first Axel) for some reason she turned left (to the left of the judges), although she usually turned to the right - senior national, stage in Egna. As a result, she jumped 3F (second jump) on the right side of rink and 3Lo (third jump) on the left side, although she usually jumped them both on the left. She got confused and improvised.
We could also notice that Ksenia was lagging behind the music at the end. It is instructive to see how the weakness of the physical form affects the quality of performance of the program, on synchronization with music. Example (the following designations are used: Egna - "E", junior national - "N"): before 3Lz+3T the N-version only slightly behind the E-version. After end the first spin (E-version), Ksenia characteristically waves her hands to the music. In the N-version she makes one, formal, wave of her hand, but not to the same bars of music, but to their repetition, now lagging is more serious. Then, in the Egna she makes the last combination exactly in the accent of the music, in national the lag increased (it takes longer than in Egna to prepare for the combination)and now it's ~4 seconds - it is very convenient to count from this missed accent to the landing of 3Lz in combination.
I said it, and I will repeat it again - Ksenia did not improve during the season. It even got worse. At the most important competition she forgets choreo of her own program, lags behind the music, not getting into the musical accents, the last jumps are weak. The Federation was wise not to send her to the world Cup. Everything has to have consequences.
Panova - "...it was strange, like a crash from the course, I thought "why it ... different side.." "
Moiseeva to Panova: "she mixed up axel", to Ksenia - "You did it... diffrent.... jumped... Look!.."
Having carefully compared with other performances of this program, I realized that Ksenia made a mistake - here (some time after the first Axel) for some reason she turned left (to the left of the judges), although she usually turned to the right - senior national, stage in Egna. As a result, she jumped 3F (second jump) on the right side of rink and 3Lo (third jump) on the left side, although she usually jumped them both on the left. She got confused and improvised.
We could also notice that Ksenia was lagging behind the music at the end. It is instructive to see how the weakness of the physical form affects the quality of performance of the program, on synchronization with music. Example (the following designations are used: Egna - "E", junior national - "N"): before 3Lz+3T the N-version only slightly behind the E-version. After end the first spin (E-version), Ksenia characteristically waves her hands to the music. In the N-version she makes one, formal, wave of her hand, but not to the same bars of music, but to their repetition, now lagging is more serious. Then, in the Egna she makes the last combination exactly in the accent of the music, in national the lag increased (it takes longer than in Egna to prepare for the combination)and now it's ~4 seconds - it is very convenient to count from this missed accent to the landing of 3Lz in combination.
I said it, and I will repeat it again - Ksenia did not improve during the season. It even got worse. At the most important competition she forgets choreo of her own program, lags behind the music, not getting into the musical accents, the last jumps are weak. The Federation was wise not to send her to the world Cup. Everything has to have consequences.
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2019
'pre-rotation' in that video is around 180 degrees and edge is flat, definitely not as deep inside as it is shown with that lines.
and nobody has ever called Anna's Lutz 'perfect'.
Ivana Jakupcevic. Also 1998 Olympian I think.
- Joined
- Dec 7, 2019
Anna has a habit of lowering her blade a lot, but she doesn't put it on the ice.
It's possible she did it in her fist 4Lz at euros, but she not intentionally or costantly blade jumping.
About edges thei're working on it (not just Anna)
When they're not confident it's possible the Flutz but, again, it's not a strategy: it's just searching refuge in a confort zone.
So call that edge if it's wrong but don't call her a cheater.
The problem is that she‘s jumping 5 lutzes with edges that look identical to her flips and so far, barring Cup of China, hasn‘t been punished for it. If your lutz looks identical to your flip, one of the jumps is wrong. She went from, what, 3-4 edge calls to none. All because of a letter from RusFed to the ISU, since her edges look the same. If that doesn‘t ring a tiny bit weird to you, I don‘t know what will.
Now, the reason I don‘t discuss this with Nadya is that she seems to be focused solely on Anna, pouring her entire frustration with the judging on a teenage girl who‘s done nothing wrong but listen to her coaches and work hard. Never mind that Anna‘s actually the one who‘s the least at fault here. I‘ve said it before, attacking a literal child/teenager personally makes everything else you might have to say worthless.
Some users trolling doesn’t negate the fact that there is a problem with the judging at the core, however. I don’t agree with users like Nadya who attack the athletes personally but I don‘t agree with those who try to somehow prove Anna has perfect edges either. Look, I like Anna as much as you do but she has obvious issues with her take offs. I‘m sure she‘s working hard on it but it doesn‘t change that she should get ! at the very least. And if you get ! on your quad lutz, the GOE difference is there and it changes things. A good 4T+3T with positive GOE by Sasha for example would be worth more then, in comparison, and I think that is deserved since it is, simply, the better jump. I don‘t think it‘s “bad“ or ”hate“ to point that out. I know how hard it is as a fan, especially when you hear for the hundredth time how your favorite is jumping wrongly or “cheating“. It‘s not necessary to point it out that much, we all know, even fans should know by this point.
That‘s why I wish that we could focus more on the Russian ladies, since we have a thread for technical discussions and it isn‘t this one. Maybe Anna fans can ignore that one then. I know I will, at least.
All of her lutz jumps were called with an ! edge at Cup of China, but until the edges are questionable enough that they are getting the 'e' at least with the quads she would be an idiot to take both out because if you look at the protocols for Cup of China with an unclear edge call and an under-rotation on the quad in the combination she still got over 12 points per jump and per jump that's more points than any other female skater got at any jumping pass at Cup of China or the Grand prix final with the exception of a handful of jumps done by Kostornaia and Trusova. I was happy to see her debut the quad flip because should her lutz edges become troublesome with scoring then she has another quad that she can work on getting in combination so that she's risking lower GOE on less jumps.
Well let's all be clear - whether or not edges/under-rotations are called is not the fault of any skater regardless of nationality, it's on the judges to call them and if the judges aren't calling blatant edge/under-rotations then its the job of the ISU to reprimand or remove the judges from ISU events.
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2018
Her jumps were called ! at Cup of China and I think that‘s the way it should be - her edge isn‘t bad enough for a full e call yet. And of course, she wouldn‘t take them out even with the calls because like you said, it‘s still a whole lot of points she gets for them. But whether you get 13-15 points for a quad combo or 20 does add up and does make a difference. That‘s why I think she should get the ! call whenever her lutz is questionable which is, honestly, most of the time. That‘s not hating on her and - like you said - she‘ll still get more points for her combos than almost all skaters.
On any rate, I like her 4F more, I wish she could get it consistent enough to put it in combination instead of the lutz.
And I‘m pretty sure I made that very clear.
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2018
So, I accidentally stumbled across something that might be back on topic. Forgive me.
https://www.instagram.com/p/B8o7GroIRSx/?igshid=1hlhx0zyu79wa
https://www.instagram.com/p/B8oJPhNJASN/?igshid=qz0blb6g2qha
I saw these two posts on Instagram and I was reminded of these two programs by Sasha. And, in retrospective, they might be my favorites of her. Now, I know what you all think about the Big Spender program and I agree that the music is inappropriate but hear me out: my argument’s not about the lyrics but the feeling of the music itself. It‘s sassy and fun and I feel like that‘s something Sasha can do very well. I don‘t think she‘s very musical but I also don‘t think she necessarily needs to be. She can be a performer just as well. At the Euros, the people went wild for her cantilever and I do remember hearing really loud cheers even through the stream for her 3Lz+3Lo right on the “bam, bam, bam!“ during Kill Bill. One way is to touch the people with your skating like Zhenya does, or Aliona with her angel SP or Alina with her Me Voy. The other way is to excite the audience, make them clap along. Think Anna’s dress change during the FS or Aliona’s FS. I think the latter’s Sasha’s way as she might not be that good at feeling the music to move an audience emotionally but she actually has quite a lot of charisma and she‘s a good entertainer, so she can build on that. We can see that in her gala for example that went viral.
I guess that‘s why her programs, especially the SP, don‘t really work for me this season. The SP starts off slow and it‘s obvious that she‘s not really feeling this kind of music. And I know it’s a very famous piece of music but really, the last part is just frantic and something I feel is very hard to pull off even for experienced skaters without looking hectic/rushed. Her FS, on the other hand, has some parts that are epic and the others just lack a bit of oomph. I was so excited to hear she was doing Game of Thrones but I think the FS is, barring the Dracarys at the end, not quite dramatic enough. Idk how else to express it but the program is literally about a queen who burns everyone with her dragons, so I do feel like we should get that feeling more. I wish they‘d chosen music that said “I‘m unstoppable, I have quads, right here, look at me because I will come to tear you down. Into pieces.“ I think she could have pulled that off nicely.
So, what I‘m saying is: Give her programs next year that are like Big Spender (without the inappropriate lyrics, just something fun and sassy) and Kill Bill. She doesn‘t need to be lyrical and princess-y. She can be badass and cool. But she needs to feel the music. And I don‘t think she‘s feeling her SP this season at all. It‘s an attempt to make her look like something she‘s not to earn more PCS. But I feel like the best way would be to work on her skating skills and for her her arm movements to seem a tad more controlled and give her programs she enjoys and feels so that she can give back that feeling to the audience. She‘s not slow and lyrical and she doesn‘t have to be. Fun can work just as well for an audience. And when she‘s on, Sasha has more than enough energy to share.
https://www.instagram.com/p/B8o7GroIRSx/?igshid=1hlhx0zyu79wa
https://www.instagram.com/p/B8oJPhNJASN/?igshid=qz0blb6g2qha
I saw these two posts on Instagram and I was reminded of these two programs by Sasha. And, in retrospective, they might be my favorites of her. Now, I know what you all think about the Big Spender program and I agree that the music is inappropriate but hear me out: my argument’s not about the lyrics but the feeling of the music itself. It‘s sassy and fun and I feel like that‘s something Sasha can do very well. I don‘t think she‘s very musical but I also don‘t think she necessarily needs to be. She can be a performer just as well. At the Euros, the people went wild for her cantilever and I do remember hearing really loud cheers even through the stream for her 3Lz+3Lo right on the “bam, bam, bam!“ during Kill Bill. One way is to touch the people with your skating like Zhenya does, or Aliona with her angel SP or Alina with her Me Voy. The other way is to excite the audience, make them clap along. Think Anna’s dress change during the FS or Aliona’s FS. I think the latter’s Sasha’s way as she might not be that good at feeling the music to move an audience emotionally but she actually has quite a lot of charisma and she‘s a good entertainer, so she can build on that. We can see that in her gala for example that went viral.
I guess that‘s why her programs, especially the SP, don‘t really work for me this season. The SP starts off slow and it‘s obvious that she‘s not really feeling this kind of music. And I know it’s a very famous piece of music but really, the last part is just frantic and something I feel is very hard to pull off even for experienced skaters without looking hectic/rushed. Her FS, on the other hand, has some parts that are epic and the others just lack a bit of oomph. I was so excited to hear she was doing Game of Thrones but I think the FS is, barring the Dracarys at the end, not quite dramatic enough. Idk how else to express it but the program is literally about a queen who burns everyone with her dragons, so I do feel like we should get that feeling more. I wish they‘d chosen music that said “I‘m unstoppable, I have quads, right here, look at me because I will come to tear you down. Into pieces.“ I think she could have pulled that off nicely.
So, what I‘m saying is: Give her programs next year that are like Big Spender (without the inappropriate lyrics, just something fun and sassy) and Kill Bill. She doesn‘t need to be lyrical and princess-y. She can be badass and cool. But she needs to feel the music. And I don‘t think she‘s feeling her SP this season at all. It‘s an attempt to make her look like something she‘s not to earn more PCS. But I feel like the best way would be to work on her skating skills and for her her arm movements to seem a tad more controlled and give her programs she enjoys and feels so that she can give back that feeling to the audience. She‘s not slow and lyrical and she doesn‘t have to be. Fun can work just as well for an audience. And when she‘s on, Sasha has more than enough energy to share.
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2013
- Country
-
Sasha’s Kill Bill was one of the very first programs in years where I was actually sad to see it performed for its last time knowing I wouldn’t see it again.
E
eterialskater
Guest
The thread has turned into a ranting outlet for people who spend their time analyzing super slow mo clips of jumps just to figure out what was the edge a nanosecond before the blade left the ice. I don't have such inclination or time to spend just for bashing skaters I don't like.
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2018
Sasha’s Kill Bill was one of the very first programs in years where I was actually sad to see it performed for its last time knowing I wouldn’t see it again.
I‘ve been thinking of her dress with the dragon on the back. Whether they were already planning her FS for the next season. I know that probably wasn‘t the case but even if it wasn‘t, it‘s some pretty neat foreshadowing.
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2017
That's me every season even with programs I didn't like at the beginning but then I watched them so many times that I learnt what comes next and what goes where and they grew on me. [emoji24][emoji24]Sasha’s Kill Bill was one of the very first programs in years where I was actually sad to see it performed for its last time knowing I wouldn’t see it again.
- Joined
- Dec 7, 2019
So, I accidentally stumbled across something that might be back on topic. Forgive me.
https://www.instagram.com/p/B8o7GroIRSx/?igshid=1hlhx0zyu79wa
https://www.instagram.com/p/B8oJPhNJASN/?igshid=qz0blb6g2qha
I saw these two posts on Instagram and I was reminded of these two programs by Sasha. And, in retrospective, they might be my favorites of her. Now, I know what you all think about the Big Spender program and I agree that the music is inappropriate but hear me out: my argument’s not about the lyrics but the feeling of the music itself. It‘s sassy and fun and I feel like that‘s something Sasha can do very well. I don‘t think she‘s very musical but I also don‘t think she necessarily needs to be. She can be a performer just as well. At the Euros, the people went wild for her cantilever and I do remember hearing really loud cheers even through the stream for her 3Lz+3Lo right on the “bam, bam, bam!“ during Kill Bill. One way is to touch the people with your skating like Zhenya does, or Aliona with her angel SP or Alina with her Me Voy. The other way is to excite the audience, make them clap along. Think Anna’s dress change during the FS or Aliona’s FS. I think the latter’s Sasha’s way as she might not be that good at feeling the music to move an audience emotionally but she actually has quite a lot of charisma and she‘s a good entertainer, so she can build on that. We can see that in her gala for example that went viral.
I guess that‘s why her programs, especially the SP, don‘t really work for me this season. The SP starts off slow and it‘s obvious that she‘s not really feeling this kind of music. And I know it’s a very famous piece of music but really, the last part is just frantic and something I feel is very hard to pull off even for experienced skaters without looking hectic/rushed. Her FS, on the other hand, has some parts that are epic and the others just lack a bit of oomph. I was so excited to hear she was doing Game of Thrones but I think the FS is, barring the Dracarys at the end, not quite dramatic enough. Idk how else to express it but the program is literally about a queen who burns everyone with her dragons, so I do feel like we should get that feeling more. I wish they‘d chosen music that said “I‘m unstoppable, I have quads, right here, look at me because I will come to tear you down. Into pieces.“ I think she could have pulled that off nicely.
So, what I‘m saying is: Give her programs next year that are like Big Spender (without the inappropriate lyrics, just something fun and sassy) and Kill Bill. She doesn‘t need to be lyrical and princess-y. She can be badass and cool. But she needs to feel the music. And I don‘t think she‘s feeling her SP this season at all. It‘s an attempt to make her look like something she‘s not to earn more PCS. But I feel like the best way would be to work on her skating skills and for her her arm movements to seem a tad more controlled and give her programs she enjoys and feels so that she can give back that feeling to the audience. She‘s not slow and lyrical and she doesn‘t have to be. Fun can work just as well for an audience. And when she‘s on, Sasha has more than enough energy to share.
I agree that those two programs where my fave of sashas (ignoring sexual innuendos) and I would really lika to see at least one "fun" program from sasha next seson. Maybe jassy like big spender (chicago maybe but perferably without the shooting your husband part) or something more modern like her unstoppable ex. I just like her better in those kinds of programs compared to the more serious ones she has now.
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2019
Just out of curiosity, huge SAsha fan here. She was the one that got me involved in figure skating because I am mainly a gymfan. What are some of your favorite programs from SAsha? I know that her performance ability, especially in competition with the big jumps needs some work but here is a list of my favs in order:
1. Unstoppable (the presentation, the meaning, the interpretation, the elements, everything is awesome)
2. Kill Bill (I really like the music, and I actually think she has musicality. Not as much as Anna but she hits some beats)
3. Seasons (That one at jr worlds, with how the choreographed it, the quads, the history making and opening of a new era, looking back it's like a time machine! She was clearly out of energy and flailing by halfway through but everything was so bam bam bam)
I know Big Spender is a popular one among fans but I want to know what your favorites are and why
1. Unstoppable (the presentation, the meaning, the interpretation, the elements, everything is awesome)
2. Kill Bill (I really like the music, and I actually think she has musicality. Not as much as Anna but she hits some beats)
3. Seasons (That one at jr worlds, with how the choreographed it, the quads, the history making and opening of a new era, looking back it's like a time machine! She was clearly out of energy and flailing by halfway through but everything was so bam bam bam)
I know Big Spender is a popular one among fans but I want to know what your favorites are and why
