Is A Quad Really Necessary for the Men?

[Joesitz (RIP)]

What about adding a half loop into the sequence so as to get into a flip or salchow and leave the toeloop out of it?

 

[Mathman]

What about adding a half loop into the sequence so as to get into a flip or salchow and leave the toeloop out of it?

That would be awesome.

But the CoP kind of forces all the skaters to do the same thing, otherwise they lose points. A 4T+3T combo is worth 13.0 points. A 4T+3F sequence is worth only 11.6. So we will probably never see it.

 

[Mafke]

Actually my dream (if the ISU wants to ask me) re-writing of the Zayak rule would be (referring only to jumps of 3 or more revolutions and not distinguishing quads from triples)

A jump may be done in combination with different jumps an unlimited number of times.
If it's done in combination with itself as in (4t/3t) it may be done one more time in combination with a different jump.
A jump performed by itself can appear in combination (with a different jump) once.

 

[Mathman]

A jump may be done in combination with different jumps an unlimited number of times.

So a skater could do 3A+3T, 3Lz+3T, 3F+3T, 3Lo+3T and 3S+3T, all in the same program?

 

[Mafke]

So a skater could do 3A+3T, 3Lz+3T, 3F+3T, 3Lo+3T and 3S+3T, all in the same program?

Yeah, "could" being the operative word here. Alternately I could live with three times in combination or once by itself and once in combination.

And I'd count sequences with half-loop as combinations (and offer extra bonus points for double one-foot axels, double half-loops and double inside axels ....) and I still like the idea of a required jumping pass with less than two revolutions (so we could get back things like tuck axels ...)

 

[slutskayafan21]

Actually my dream (if the ISU wants to ask me) re-writing of the Zayak rule would be (referring only to jumps of 3 or more revolutions and not distinguishing quads from triples)

A jump may be done in combination with different jumps an unlimited number of times.
If it's done in combination with itself as in (4t/3t) it may be done one more time in combination with a different jump.
A jump performed by itself can appear in combination (with a different jump) once.

My biggest fear if that happened is Tara Lipinski would suddenly reinstate and be unbeatable by racking up points doing every other triple (minus the triple axel) with a triple loop on the end.

 

[gkelly]

Well, the limit of no more than 3 combinations or sequences has been around a lot longer than the new judging system and there's no reason to repeal it.

 

[Tonichelle]

My biggest fear if that happened is Tara Lipinski would suddenly reinstate and be unbeatable by racking up points doing every other triple (minus the triple axel) with a triple loop on the end.

well you need not worry, her hip injury will keep her from doing that ever again

 

[antmanb]

I just checked some old sp's and you're absolutely right. I have no idea what I was thinking of (I probably got some things mixed up).

I'm not backing down from my assertion that two triple or quad toeloops is plenty in any program. If a skater opens up an lp with a 4/3 toeloop combination I don't want to see any more toeloops (that are more than 2 revolutions) from them in that program.

No i totally agree with you. There was some talk of introducing the Zayak rule for jumps of three or more revolutions. Personally i would have no problem if that rule was brought in.

That would mean if a skater uses a 4T/3T as their combination they have to use the 3lp as the back half of a combination if they want another 3/3 or 4/3 or use a sequence with a sal or flip. It also means that if you want to put two quads in the program you'll need two different types of quad or to do a 4/2 or a 4T/3Lp.

I think that it would force skaters to use their jumps more wisely and be forced into coming up with varied jump combinations/sequences to use the maximum jumping passes and not do 4 types of the same jump as they currently can (and do).

Ant

 

[Mathman]

...It also means that if you want to put two quads in the program you'll need two different types of quad or to do a 4/2...

I'm afraid that's exactly what it would do -- take away the quad/triple combo altogether.

I think that it would force skaters to use their jumps more wisely and be forced into coming up with varied jump combinations/sequences to use the maximum jumping passes and not do 4 types of the same jump as they currently can (and do).

I think there is the possibility that it would make skaters less innovative instead of more. I think every skater (if they were able) would just do 4T+2T, 4T, 3A+2T, 3A, 3Lz+3T, 3F+2Lo+2Lo, 3Lo, 3S. If they got lazy they could change their last two passes into double Axels (thus doing only four kinds of jumps) and only lose 2.5 points.

 

[Kypma]

Are jumps passes consisting of, say, 3wtv-1/2Lo-3S counted as combinations or as sequences? Furthermore, do they count the half-loop as a jump, meaning the 3-jump sequence/combination has been used up?


Kypma

 

[Kypma]

I'm afraid that's exactly what it would do -- take away the quad/triple combo altogether.I think there is the possibility that it would make skaters less innovative instead of more. I think every skater (if they were able) would just do 4T+2T, 4T, 3A+2T, 3A, 3Lz+3T, 3F+2Lo+2Lo, 3Lo, 3S. If they got lazy they could change their last two passes into double Axels (thus doing only four kinds of jumps) and only lose 2.5 points.

Mathman, you now have 3 toe loop jumps of 3 or more revolutions... and unless I misunderstood, that wouldn't work within the system that's being thought out, because the 4/2 is being used specifically because there is a limit of 2 jumps of same nature of 3 revolutions or more...


Kypma


Wow, sorry for posting twice in a row, I didn't notice my reply given that it was on a new page...

 

[Sackie]

Even before COP those attempting 3A were rewarded above those not trying them. A lot of skaters who fell or 2 footed the 3A were placed ahead of a clean program that didn't have a 3A attempt.

 

[GoldMedalist]

That's a horrible rule (the new Zayak idea), sorry.

 

[Mathman]

Mathman, you now have 3 toe loop jumps of 3 or more revolutions... and unless I misunderstood, that wouldn't work within the system that's being thought out, because the 4/2 is being used specifically because there is a limit of 2 jumps of same nature of 3 revolutions or more...

Oops. My bad.

Well, that's all the worse. I guess you would have to change the Lutz combination to a 3Lz+3Lo and the solo loop to a double Axel. Anyway, To me, the danger is that we would see programs that are less interesting instead of more.

 

[Mathman]

Even before COP those attempting 3A were rewarded above those not trying them. A lot of skaters who fell or 2 footed the 3A were placed ahead of a clean program that didn't have a 3A attempt.

Great point. :yes:

 

[Mafke]

That's a horrible rule (the new Zayak idea), sorry.

Care to explain why?

 

[GoldMedalist]

There's absolutely nothing wrong with a jump layout that includes 2 Quad Toes and 2 Triple Toes in combination. It's really exciting when people can pull that off, actually.

 

[Mafke]

There's absolutely nothing wrong with a jump layout that includes 2 Quad Toes and 2 Triple Toes in combination. It's really exciting when people can pull that off, actually.

If you like quads, I loathe them. The difference between a triple and quad isn't so much skating skill but sheer force (the primary skating skill involved in a quad, a controlled landing on a back outside edge is strangely unimportant in COP).

 

[GoldMedalist]

I don't think you comprehend the difficulty of a Quad in the least. It requires absolutely precise speed, blade control, body position, and reflexes. Sheer force???