2019-20 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[KOBOT37]

Just For Fun, I did try to find out how does winning olympics affect athletes careers in ladies field.

Figure Skating has 25 appearance in winter olympics, 25 Gold Medals have been awarded to total 22 Athletes.

So, How did Careers of Gold Medal winners develop after winning?

Madge Syers, won OGM in 1908, Retired in 1908.
Magda Julin, won OGM in 1920, Retired in 1921(?).
Herma Szabo, won OGM in 1924, Retired in 1927.
Sonja Henie, won OGM in 1928, Retired in 1936 as a most decorated skater to date with 3 OGMs.
Barbara Ann Scott, won OGM in 1948, retired in 1948 as an 20 years old. (basically an однодневка )
Jeannette Altwegg,won OGM in 1952, retired due to injury in 1952 (Eteri must have time traveled and over trained her)
Tenley Albright,won OGM in 1956, retired in 1956.
Carol Heiss, won OGM in 1960, retired in 1960.
Sjoukje Dijkstra, won OGM in 1964, tallest skater ever(?) to win until Maiia gets OGM 2 years from now (save it ), retired in 1964, after Eteri time traveled again and forced her to start show skating and pay her %.
Peggy Fleming, won OGM in 1968, retired in 1968.
Beatrix Schuba(you are going to hear her name soon ), won OGM in 1972, retired in 1973.
Dorothy Hamill, won in 1976, retired in 1976.
Anett Pötzsch, won in 1980, retired in 1980 due to knee problems and Motivation issues.
Katarina Witt, won in 1984, retired in 1994, after becoming second(and to this day, last) woman ever with multiple OGMs
Kristi Yamaguchi, won in 1992, retired in 1992.
Oksana Baiul, won in 1994, at the age of 17, retired in 1994.
Tara Lipinski, won in 1998, at the age of 15, retired in 1998, basically an Eteri's girl before it was cool
Sarah Hughes, won in 2002 at the age of 17, retired in 2003.
Shizuka Arakawa, won in 2006, retired in 2006.
Yuna Kim, won in 2010, retired in 2014..
Adelina Sotnikova, won in 2014,retired in 2016 after only one post olympic season.
Alina Zagitova, won in 2018, hasn't retired yet.

So what do we have? from 22 OGM winners, 13 have retired immediately,another 4 retired after competing one more season, another one remains to be seen.

So far, from 21 (minus Alina) OGM winners only Herma Szabo, Sonja Henie,Katarina Witt and Yuna Kim had 'lengthy career' after winning OGM.

 

[KOBOT37]

From 28 gold Medals ever awarded to single ladies in FS, 7 has been awarded to skaters under 18 years old (25%), and another 7 has been awarded girls under 20 years old (U-20 took 50% of all medals). Only 9 medals went to the skater more than 20 years old, from these 9 only 2, Arakawa and Osmond(team) are from these century. Most of them are before 1970s.

Sonja Henie was 2 times OGM winner before she turned 20 years old, Katarina Witt won her second medal while Being 22.

15 years olds won OGM 3 times, including once 92 years ago.

Are there any 1930 kids around to tell us if raising age limit was being discussed when 15 years old Sonja Henie won her first OGM in 1928?

 

[Tolstoj]

I still don't understand why people think that Guliakova will get the host spot? She is 58th on the WS list and not on the SB list at all. I guess because she's technically on the WS list it in theory could happen, but 58th in WS is way lower than any Russian I can remember getting a spot with. Yes, she is on the reserve team, but so was Gubanova last year, who also happened to be in the top 24 SB and technically "guaranteed" a spot didn't even get one. Yes, this year is a lot less crowded than last, but I just don't see it happening with a 58th and a reserve team. Last year they favored place on the SB/WS lists over a place on the national team. Sakhanovich who was higher on the SB list and Sotskova who was higher on the WS list each got one over Gubanova, even though neither of them were on the national team while Gubanova was. So I would imagine that Konstantinova and/or Tarakanova, who are at #25 on the SB and WS list respectively, would be favored over someone like Guliakova who is not even close to the top 24 on either. And who knows, Tarakanova may still be put on the junior team next year for all we know, and girls on the junior team have gotten GP spots plenty of times.

Anyways, I agree with you on the lineup other than Guliakova. I would guess that probably Vasilieva would get 2 instead of 1 (that would perfectly give every "guaranteed" girl two spots), or I would think the other spot would go to Tarakanova or Konstantinova, but I think the former is more likely to happen considering Konstantinova was actively removed from the team and Tarakanova has never really been favored by RusFed.

Well RusFed kinda screwed last season the whole Challenger selection, so essentially sent out skaters who in desperate need of an ISU official SB event, only to events that counted nothing. ISU is at fault too considering they removed events that used to be considered part of the challenger series such as Tallinn Trophy.

It's not just Guliakova, but Tsibinova, Gubanova they are all in a similar situation.

What makes Guliakova stand out from the others is that she beated all these girls including Konstantinova at Nationals, and Cup Final, the most important domestic competitions.

Ultimately regardless of the SB it's up to Russia to choose the skater for the host pick and Guliakova could still get the second spot if they give her 1-2 challengers early next season, but this is all speculation considering we still don't know how life will be in the post quarantine world.

 

[Tolstoj]

adapt to what ?



Apply what exactly ?

Last year, TT skater won a world championship while arguably being in the middle of the puberty.

This year, same skater, despite obviously spending less time to train for competitions kept all her jumps and if had she bothered to get to her peak shape, could easily have been favorite to win medal.

Eteri isn't going to train skaters like it's 2000s, even if they set age limit at 30

To the supposed proposal for a new age minimum in seniors.

It has been rumored for years, and i think regardless if it gets approved in 2020, or later, it does seem that it might happen at some point, and if it does happen that will inevitably change the way you train a skater.

Cause if you become senior let's say at 17 or 18, how many girls will survive by then if they start to do quads nonstop since 10-11? They'll have to reconsider at what point it's most effective to start training quads in order to peak when you reach seniors.

We're still very early in the quads era in Ladies, but we've seen for decades in Men's skating all the consequences of practicing quads on a daily basis (more injuries)

 

[KOBOT37]

To the supposed proposal for a new age minimum in seniors.

It has been rumored for years, and i think regardless if it gets approved in 2020, or later, it does seem that it might happen at some point, and if it does happen that will inevitably change the way you train a skater.

Cause if you become senior let's say at 17 or 18, how many girls will survive by then if they start to do quads nonstop since 10-11? They'll have to reconsider at what point it's most effective to start training quads in order to peak when you reach seniors.

We're still very early in the quads era in Ladies, but we've seen for decades in Men's skating all the consequences of practicing quads on a daily basis (more injuries)

Veronika Zhilina was born in 2008.

Her senior debut will be in 2023.

Main aim of her career, will be in 2026.

She will be 18 (!) years old anyway, regardless of age limit restriction.

Yet, She started doing quads at 10-11 years old.

In her coaching career, Eteri has pupils who needed to peak at 18 years old (Medvedeva being most profilic example) and girls who needed to peak at 15 years old. All these girls were trained same way.

If you think that training regiment at Khrustalny is ever going to get easier on bodies, I think you are mistaken, mentality there is 'everyone is in pain, everyone is hungry, everyone is tired now go and jump' and it's going to stay that way.

 

[Alex65]

To the supposed proposal for a new age minimum in seniors.

It has been rumored for years, and i think regardless if it gets approved in 2020, or later, it does seem that it might happen at some point, and if it does happen that will inevitably change the way you train a skater.

Cause if you become senior let's say at 17 or 18, how many girls will survive by then if they start to do quads nonstop since 10-11? They'll have to reconsider at what point it's most effective to start training quads in order to peak when you reach seniors.

We're still very early in the quads era in Ladies, but we've seen for decades in Men's skating all the consequences of practicing quads on a daily basis (more injuries)

This is just your guess. No need to make your own opinion an axiom. Can you give any facts confirming your statement? How in this case to explain the fact that there are more and more girls of 8-9 years old who confidently make 3-3 combos? After all, they do not have to rush, because no one is going to lower the age of juniors. This is all the same 13 years as 5-7 years ago. In my opinion, the ongoing changes in the FS are associated with progress in the training process in the best schools in the world that strive to compete with each other. This is a natural course of things. Caring for the health of children, which the advocates of adult skating love so much, is rather a psychological argument. In order for this to serve as a proof of someone's righteousness, you must give specific data , otherwise it is simply dishonest and dishonorable.

 

[Mathman]

So what do we have? from 22 OGM winners, 13 have retired immediately,another 4 retired after competing one more season, another one remains to be seen.

So far, from 21 (minus Alina) OGM winners only Herma Szabo, Sonja Henie,Katarina Witt and Yuna Kim had 'lengthy career' after winning OGM.

Is there any conclusion to draw from these random observations?

 

[Edwin]

Is there any conclusion to draw from these random observations?

You’re the Mathman, you should be able to create order out of chaos by applied mathematics and statistics

There is simply not enough scientific evidence of specific adverse effects in relation to training loads. Genetics play a role, selecting improper body types, inappropriate training methods, parental pressure, etc. The elite skater population that trains at the highest level is concentrated in Russia, where the motivation to excel in sports is different from the commercial sports culture that prevails in the West.

I repeat myself one more time in saying this whole age limit and quads in the short for girls is politically motivated.

Instead of trying to turn back time, other nations should also start specialized sports schools for children and youths to level the playing field.
Because leveling the field is the sole aim of this politics, which is understandable from the opposition’s point of view.

If you don’t apply yourself you get overtaken and loose the race.

Provided the Russian system stays as it is, it is still in the best position to continue its domination with young seniors of 18 years of age.

They will not give up training ultra-si, wether allowed in international competitions or not.

Only if ISU actively de-popularizes figure skating for children and youths or starts to discriminate against Russia because a sudden influx of ‘Koncerned Korpi’ types will progress be halted and advancements turned back.

 

[KOBOT37]

Is there any conclusion to draw from these random observations?

conclusion is that Olympic champions retiring shortly after winning is business as usual in figure skating and neither age limit nor Eteri's training methods have anything to do with it.

 

[icetug]

Are there any 1930 kids around to tell us if raising age limit was being discussed when 15 years old Sonja Henie won her first OGM in 1928?

You mean 1910, as born in 1930ties actually can't remember any discussion after 1928 Olympics .

What can I tell you... do you know that in 1928 in some European countries 12 y.o. girls were regular workers in factories? My grandmother went from Poland to South of France for work as a 14 y.o. girl, having a passport of her older sister. So please don't compare what people could say THEN with a nowadays point of view. We are in quite different environment and children rights are basicaly respected in every European country.

 

[icetug]

conclusion is that Olympic champions retiring shortly after winning is business as usual in figure skating and neither age limit nor Eteri's training methods have anything to do with it.

And remind me, till when a skater had to turn proffesional to take part in profitable shows in the USA? Afaik Oksana Baiul was the last one to have no choice if she wanted to earn good money? So yes, business as usual... till 1994. After there we have poor Tara who paid for "being the youngest" with her health, Sara Hudges who tried to continue but evidently lost motivation after the year, Shizuka Arakava who was 24 while won Olympics, Yuna Kim who continued next quad and well known Russian winners. A full range of biografies... that doesn't advocate your claim.

 

[KOBOT37]

And remind me, till when a skater had to turn proffesional to take part in profitable shows in the USA?

point is?

It's impossible to be full time show skater and professional athlete to this day. Had Zagitova (for example) continued competing after RussNats she would lose more than 100K alone from Navka show, probably around same amount from Swiss show and thousands of dollars from various small shows and photoshoots. Also factor in that she most likely sacrificed pre season training for Japanese shows.

who paid for "being the youngest" with her health

You pay for you wins with your health, regardless of the age.

Sara Hudges who tried to continue but evidently lost motivation after the year

no wonder she did.

and well known Russian winners

FYI sotnikova was 17 years old when she became Olympic champion. She would have STILL won with this new age limit. And she would still retire the way she did.

that doesn't advocate your claim.

outside of Yuna,they all do.

 

[KOBOT37]

You mean 1910, as born in 1930ties actually can't remember any discussion after 1928 Olympics .

What can I tell you... do you know that in 1928 in some European countries 12 y.o. girls were regular workers in factories? My grandmother went from Poland to South of France for work as a 14 y.o. girl, having a passport of her older sister. So please don't compare what people could say THEN with a nowadays point of view. We are in quite different environment and children rights are basicaly respected in every European country.

If Europeans think that 10 years olds Jumping quads and 3+3 are violation of Children's rights, they are very free not to allow their children do these jumps. key word here is their .

My point was very simple, ladies figure skating has always been sport of Young girls where winners tend to retire quickly.

and regarding to kids rights, sports have been moving to one direction since Olympic games were being held in Athens- Faster, Stronger,Higher and ultimately time will come when people will talk kids landing quads same way we do talk about kids landing 3s, as time goes by, pressure on bodies in sports (every sport, not only fs) is only going to increase and so will difficulty of performances.

 

[brakes]

I wonder how big of influence this massive break has on the skaters. Ongoing puberty + prolonged idleness = end of quads era? :hopelessness:

Kostornaya and Shcherbakova admitted in interviews they will have to basically learn how to skate again.

 

[SkateSkates]

I wonder how big of influence this massive break has on the skaters. Ongoing puberty + prolonged idleness = end of quads era? :hopelessness:

Kostornaya and Shcherbakova admitted in interviews they will have to basically learn how to skate again.

I think it depends on how much longer they are off the ice for. In a recent interview with the Russian team doctor, he said the amount of time you’re off is the amount of recovery time needed - ie 1 month off = 1 month recovery (which is where we are now), 2 months off = 2 months recover. If we are lucky, maybe they can come back to the ice in a limited capacity in late May, which would mean recovery through most of June/July and then ramping up to full training again in August. This timeline would be fine for the senior skaters (assuming GPs start as scheduled in late October) but is problematic for Juniors. That said, I think the JGP will probably be delayed or cancelled because August is unlikely to be feasible with many countries borders still closed through September.

 

[brakes]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGxGE5w75lY

The host says in the beggining that after 6 weeks Olympic level athlete loses his top form irreversibly. No Olympic medals, no professional sport after such break.
Then Kostornaya says 1 week break is ok, 2 weeks is very hard to come back into shape, 3 weeks and more you gotta learn to skate again.
In the end TAT says the athletes need to start skating in some closed rink: Sochi, Novogorsk or somewhere in the mountains. She laments Russia is stepping down as Olympic favourite, while Japan, Korea and China keep on training in closed venues. She claims she trained Mao Asada in such place.

 

[Edwin]

TAT prattles a lot and makes lots of claims, like who is the rightful 2018 Olympic Champion .... :dev2:

FFKKR will stay very much on top of developments, resuming training for their elite skaters as soon as officially permitted and making the best of any limitations and rules still imposed.
I suppose Moscow and Sankt Peterburg health authorities have the final say in when their 'city' rinks open. So far, Mishin, Davydov and Tutberidze have obeyed the city's decrees and rulings.

FFKKR perhaps can claim no rinks to be under her complete control? Novogorsk perhaps, when the ice has been laid?
I doubt in the large and multi purpose Novogorsk sports complex separated training and living between the different sports residing there can be 100% isolated in practice, plus the adults likely want to mingle evenings and nights to get away from school and student age children they have to keep up with during the day ;-)
It would be unwise to let people leave for home and go shopping etc. while the spread of the virus isn't under control. One infected trainer or athlete and the whole complex will be put in quarantine again.

 

[macy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGxGE5w75lY

The host says in the beggining that after 6 weeks Olympic level athlete loses his top form irreversibly. No Olympic medals, no professional sport after such break.
Then Kostornaya says 1 week break is ok, 2 weeks is very hard to come back into shape, 3 weeks and more you gotta learn to skate again.
In the end TAT says the athletes need to start skating in some closed rink: Sochi, Novogorsk or somewhere in the mountains. She laments Russia is stepping down as Olympic favourite, while Japan, Korea and China keep on training in closed venues. She claims she trained Mao Asada in such place.

but is this a result of stopping training 100%, or of a changed/reduced training environment like what the girls are doing? they will lose some form, but no where near as if they totally stopped training. that is very different.

also, i didn't know Asian countries were training in closed environments right now. if that's true they will definitely have a leg up on everyone else next season.

 

[SkateSkates]

6 weeks off training is not career ending. Wasn’t Anna Shcherbakova off the ice for 3 months with a broken leg? And now she’s 2x champion of Russia and Euros/GPF silver medalist. 6 weeks isn’t even enough recovery time for a major injury or surgery.

 

[Edwin]

i didn't know Asian countries were training in closed environments right now. if that's true they will definitely have a leg up on everyone else next season.

Might be an effort in vain, as training - traveling - competing are three completely different things under the pandemic. Assuming the assigned GP events stay at their locations and dates, restrictions might still apply, and one cannot be sure LOC's will want to, or even can run their event without audience and income of ticket sales. Young athletes, fearless as they are, will probably feel little or no anxiety, but they still might be required to self-isolate before or after the event, which will seriously mess up training if allowed/needed to live with their parents.

Unless our Russian young skaters will be kept away from their parents as soon as the national selection is gathered for summer training camp and put through Open Test Skates and during the rest of the whole of GP season, a thought which will pass the minds of FFKKR officials, no doubt.