Date of 4CC - Timing OK for N.Americans?

[Joesitz (RIP)]

4CC date is set at 11-17 Feb.

US Nats is set at 20-27 Jan

A tight 2 week difference between the end of Nats and the start of 4CC.

Who do we expect from the US to be in 4CC? Kimmie?, Emily? Ashley? Bebe? Katy? Caroline? Mirai? Other?

Johnny?, Evan?, Stephen?, Jeremy?, Scott, Ryan? Other?


Personally, I think the Trip would be too exhausting, the time travelling, competing would be put to better use in practicing for Worlds.

I think any skaters not making the Worlds team should go to Seul if they qualify to get ISU points for GP the following year. That includes Pairs and Dance.

Joe

 

[Tonichelle]

isn't that always how it is for US/Canadian skaters, though? not a lot of time between nationals and 4ccs.

and normally they send their second string (at least the US normally does)... I don't expect the top names to head off to the 'minor' competition when worlds is the big prize...

 

[R.D.]

I don't expect the top names to head off to the 'minor' competition when worlds is the big prize...

And therein lies the problem with the 4CC's. You don't see the Europeans writing off the Euros to prepare for Worlds :scratch:

 

[attyfan]

And therein lies the problem with the 4CC's. You don't see the Europeans writing off the Euros to prepare for Worlds :scratch:

First, I understand that many European federations use the results of Euros as well as their results from Nats to decide who goes to Worlds -- so many skaters really need it. Second, since Euros is over a hundred years old, it has a certain prestige that the 4CCs simply cannot match.

 

[ElFuego]

4CC date is set at 11-17 Feb.

US Nats is set at 20-27 Jan

A tight 2 week difference between the end of Nats and the start of 4CC.

Who do we expect from the US to be in 4CC? Kimmie?, Emily? Ashley? Bebe? Katy? Caroline? Mirai? Other?

Johnny?, Evan?, Stephen?, Jeremy?, Scott, Ryan? Other?

The USA has, in the past, named the top (age-eligible) three from Nationals. In general, the singles skaters have turned it down, and the dance/pair teams have not.

Until Nationals is over, it's probably useless to speculate, because the team will be named based on the finish at Nationals.

However Nagasu and Zhang will definite NOT be on the 4C team. They are not age-eligible for senior ISU championship events (aka, Worlds, Euros, and 4Cs).

 

[dwiggin3]

I also think that given that travel in Europe is far easier than it is for 4C's (same time zone - I think) is why more European skaters attend. Also, I'm not sure what the span of time between Euro's and Worlds are vs. US Nat.'s and Worlds. It might be that the span of time between the two events is greater and allows for more rest and training. The fact that Euro's is such a historic event and that skating was born in Europe, the tradition of attending and the honor placed on being selected to represent your nation may be greater.

I also wonder if there is a perception - accurate or not, that US skaters or at least NA skaters in some way, have more freedom to decline such events for reasons from injury to the skater "just not wanting to attend" - or at least there is less "punishment" from their federation if they do skip an event, or because we are generally some of the wealthest and thus, don't "need" the prize money to support teams. Of course, these are generalizations and may or may not be correct. I personally, get the impression that in many countries outside NA, skating it more of a job with responsibilities to the boss, something you do to earn your paycheck and house/feed/clothe you and your family whereas, in NA it is more of a "hobbie" or certainly, not necessarily a long-term source of income.

 

[Mathman]

Location and travel do seem to have quite a bit to do with it. Last year when Four Continents was held in Colorado Springs, the top three U.S. Ladies (Meissner, Hughes and Czisny) all went, along with three of the top four men (Lysacek, Abbott and Bradley).

Canada also sent a very strong team of Rochette, Hawker, Phaneuf, Buttle, Mabee and Sandhu.

 

[chuckm]

You won't see Emily Hughes at this event. The spring term at Harvard starts on January 30.

Nagasu, Zhang and Flatt are all too young to compete at ISU senior championship events. For the other singles skaters who are headed to Worlds, a long, long trip to and from Korea, and then getting in only an hour or two of practice each day at the venue is a big turnoff. Few can afford to chop a full 10 days out of their training schedules. All those hours cooped up on a plane with other passengers who may be carrying respiratory illnesses is a risk as well. And of course, there is always the possibility of skates and costumes getting lost in transit.

So I wouldn't expect to see the top US singles skaters at this event. But most of the top ice dancers and pairs teams probably will go.

 

[Sylvia]

Nagasu, Zhang and Flatt are all too young to compete at ISU senior championship events.

Ditto for Keauna McLaughlin (of the senior pair team of McLaughlin/Rockne Brubaker), who turns 15 next month (minimum age is 15 by July 1st).

 

[Tinymavy15]

usually the skaters who go to Four Continents don't go to worlds.... or at least are not front-runners.

 

[seafoam]

I think the attitude of the US Federation has changed re: 4CC. Remember last year, Johnny was not allowed to participate in Tarasova's anniversary tribute since he did not attend 4CC. Also, Kimmie was required to participate if she wanted to guest star in SOI.

I get the impression that TPTB are trying to make 4CC into a top tier competition, so are putting pressure on their top athletes to participate, even if it is potentially detrimental to their preparation for Worlds. Seems like an odd attitude--but that's nothing new for USFS, lol.

It will be interesting to see what happens this year.

 

[singerskates]

4CC split in 2?

I think 4CC should be split into two competitions. Africa and Asia as one and North America and South America as the other. Posible names for these? Hmm, let's see. Asian African Championships and The America's Championships. This way skaters don't have to travel so far just after Nationals or before Worlds (Olympics once every 4 years then Worlds). They would be more like Europeans. Even if a skater would have to travel a long distance, the time zones wouldn't be as much as if they would continue to do 4CC. We'd probably see more top skaters do the events on a regular basis.

Anyway just how many countries from South America have top level skaters at the moment? Same goes for Africa? I know that Asia and North America have quite a few each.

Who's idea was it to stick that many countinents together for one competition anyway?

 

[attyfan]

... Who's idea was it to stick that many countinents together for one competition anyway?

$peedy, of course. He thought it would be a good idea to have something comparable to the European championships, so he came up with an event that has been described as the "4Es" because "Everyone's Eligible Except Europeans". If it was possible to get coverage for the entire event, I think it would be a good idea to show skaters from Africa or South America, but that has never happened. Unfortunately, since it only began in '99, it never developed any prestige -- and since few federations use it as part of selecting the World team, there is no incentive for the top skaters to go to it (the only reason why the top US ladies went last year is that it was a requirement to get USFS approval to do SOI stops)

 

[rutinia]

Since last season, the skate order of worlds SP is decided by the ISU world standing. The top 12 participants on that list are "qualified" to skate in the last two groupes. As often seen, skate order influences judging. If Kostner was in the last two groupes, her score would be higher.
Rochette and her fellow Canadians chose to paricipate 4CC because they missed GPF and needed points to raise the ranking. The Americans followed suite. The USFSA wanted their top skaters to participate 4CC at home. Especially for ladies, without participation of Meissner (or Hughes), they were very likely to fail winning a single gold from ISU senior competitions. That's a gloomy idea for the world empire.
For this season, Meissner has a very good chance to advance to GPF. Same for Lysacek and Buttle. They don't need additional points. Hughes and Weir wont go to the other side of the ocean anyway. Rochette...maybe...

 

[R.D.]

I think 4CC should be split into two competitions. Africa and Asia as one and North America and South America as the other. Posible names for these? Hmm, let's see. Asian African Championships and The America's Championships. This way skaters don't have to travel so far just after Nationals or before Worlds (Olympics once every 4 years then Worlds). They would be more like Europeans. Even if a skater would have to travel a long distance, the time zones wouldn't be as much as if they would continue to do 4CC. We'd probably see more top skaters do the events on a regular basis.

Anyway just how many countries from South America have top level skaters at the moment? Same goes for Africa? I know that Asia and North America have quite a few each.

Who's idea was it to stick that many countinents together for one competition anyway?

I've said that many times before

 

[Mafke]

Also, national championships in Europe aren't such a big deal (in the overall scheme of international skating). Most countries don't have deep fields and the one country that has had one recently (Russia) doesn't really use national championships that much in deciding international assignments.
So for European skaters, the European championships really are a big deal.

But both the US and Canada meanwhile have deep fields and at least the US uses nationals in determing world/oly teams. I would also assume it generates revenue that USFSA does not want to give up.

A Pan-American championships might work if both the US and Canada could send more than 3 entries in each discipline (with whatever skaters from other countries might be found). But I really don't see that happening.

And 4CC is just a dumb malformed idea. It's also a typical example of ISU top-down thinking. Let's create a championship by fiat! I'd say put it to rest and instead start an Asian (including Australia) championships (and ex soviet republics in asia like kazakhstan should participate there instead of europeans). It won't be impressive for a while but that would make some sense and have potential to grow, 4CC will never prosper as long as the US and Canada don't send their A teams (and I don't think they should).

In terms of time zones, I'd be cool with SAfrican skaters competing in Europeans (if they wanted).

 

[blue dog]

Also, national championships in Europe aren't such a big deal (in the overall scheme of international skating). Most countries don't have deep fields and the one country that has had one recently (Russia) doesn't really use national championships that much in deciding international assignments.
So for European skaters, the European championships really are a big deal.

But both the US and Canada meanwhile have deep fields and at least the US uses nationals in determing world/oly teams. I would also assume it generates revenue that USFSA does not want to give up.

A Pan-American championships might work if both the US and Canada could send more than 3 entries in each discipline (with whatever skaters from other countries might be found). But I really don't see that happening.

And 4CC is just a dumb malformed idea. It's also a typical example of ISU top-down thinking. Let's create a championship by fiat! I'd say put it to rest and instead start an Asian (including Australia) championships (and ex soviet republics in asia like kazakhstan should participate there instead of europeans). It won't be impressive for a while but that would make some sense and have potential to grow, 4CC will never prosper as long as the US and Canada don't send their A teams (and I don't think they should).

In terms of time zones, I'd be cool with SAfrican skaters competing in Europeans (if they wanted).

I never got why former soviet republics like Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan, and Georgia sent skaters to Euros--perhaps it's a holdover from the soviet days. Israel is another one that sends skaters to Euros...

I like your Asian championships idea. I think it would go over very well, especially with nations developing.

 

[Mathman]

To me, though, it is not easy to see what interest there would be in an "American Championship." As a practical matter, this would mean just the U.S. versus Canada.

The old "North American Championship" was discontinued in 1973 when Canada refused to attend the contest, scheduled for Rochester, New York. The Canadian Federation cited as reasons, first the fact that the home country always won because they stacked the judging panels, so there was no point in Canadian athletes trying to compete in the U.S. and vice versa. And secondly, that it was too close to Worlds.

The real reason, though, was because they had come up with the idea of "Skate Canada" instead, where Canada would invite top skaters wordwide. The U.S. followed with the rival "Skate America" in 1979.

Same with Asia. Are there enough countries to make a serious competition out of it, or would it just be a Chinese pairs exhibition with a Japan versus
Yu-na sideshow?

 

[Mafke]

I never got why former soviet republics like Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan, and Georgia sent skaters to Euros--perhaps it's a holdover from the soviet days. Israel is another one that sends skaters to Euros...

I like your Asian championships idea. I think it would go over very well, especially with nations developing.

Well I really think it's because there wasn't anywhere else for them to go. In time zone terms I think Israel makes more sense in Europe than Asia (not sure how it compares in that regard with former soviet reps) And Israel is included as Europe in some other fields as well (Eurovision!).

But for about 10 years at least, an Asian championship probably wouldn't be the sort of competition anyone but a real skating fanatic would want to watch (especially dance...).

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Yikes, a lot of thought going into this Thread.

Rather than kill Speedy's dream of equality between Europe and the Rest of the World, I would suggest that the 4CC be in place of the hardly international competition of Campbells in October. The venue would not interfere with the more serious Nats and Worlds, and GPFs are in December.

(BTW,while checking the ISU site for 4CC I noticed there is no Marshalls after Worlds. The times, they are achanging.)

Joe