2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[Mathman]

I don't think it's rare, nor would I give Chan as an example of great jumping.

Not great jumping per se, but exemplary posture and carriage.

I also meant about Eteri girls' skating skill though. They really... Swing across the ice to get those level fours.

I don't blame the coach, though. Coaches are trying to get points from the judges.It's a sport -- whoever gets the most points, wins.

I remember one year the ISU rules were written up in such a way as to emphasize "whole body movement." All the skaters went down the ice bobbing up and down from the waist looking like pigeons.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Fallacies, sigh. Many people agree with my take on skating, even just among what's publicly documented, and have helped to pass my ideas through ISU Congress to improve the system. It is "on me", and anyone else who is very knowledgeable about skating and its history and every detail of scoring system, to discuss our viewpoint and fight for the ideal ecosystem. It's a big task to shape the scoring system and the judging to an "ideal" state, to untangle this web of complexity through a governing body that is itself fractured. Just because people live under a certain system, it doesn't mean they agree with it all. The person who wrote the initial CoP rules even says it has been misused; that should tell you something.

Pointing to Eurosport commentators as some kind of infallible argument (and then stating your own limitation, as if it's impossible for you to learn more?) is a weird stance. One of those guys was never a skater, and most commentaries are targeted towards a general audience and try to be very generous about the performances, rather than point out details like the ones we are talking about now. There are commentaries that agree with what I am saying anyway, so this isn't something you want to argue. The judge argument is so tired too, they are simply volunteers who have generally not put as much thought into these things, and who are frequently influenced by politics. They just press the scoring buttons at competitions, so what? There are more qualified people than them to do it, but this is how things are. Some of them have even said they don't agree with the competition results of their own scores, which could be both a sign of how the system is flawed, and their own misunderstanding of how to use the system.

So fight for your ideals with ISU then. Together with Joe Inman... (just skip me in that fight)... I am the one who like constant changing, so i am all for it... I'm just talking knowing what rules (or better to say recommendations) are currently on the table, and i'm basing my view according to those recommendations, so eace:

 

[Skatesocs]

I don't blame the coach, though. Coaches are trying to get points from the judges.It's a sport -- whoever gets the most points, wins.

That's fine. But I was just commenting on why they have weak skating skills. Because the power doesn't come from the feet and knees as much. Not what does or doesn't get points or how, because it's just a futile discussion to me. We already know what gets points.

 

[Skatesocs]

So fight for your ideals with ISU then. Together with Joe Inman (just skip me in that fight). I am the one who like constant changing, so i am all for it. I'm just talking knowing what rules (or better to say recommendations) are currently on the table, and i'm basing my view according to those recommendations eace:

I doubt that's what you're doing though. You see what is getting scores and go backwards to the rulebooks to say "oh this is why it must be getting points".

 

[Baron Vladimir]

I doubt that's what you're doing though. You see what is getting scores and go backwards to the rulebooks to say "oh this is why it must be getting points".

Which is the most logical thing to do, thank you. Or you think it is better to explain the sport from my own point of view, which maybe has no sense with how the sport looks like today. If the sport has its own rules and the judging system, of course i will base my arguments on those rules and that specific judging system, not on my own subjective feeling about it. What i prefer or don't prefer can be completely different thing, and I think there is no point to argue about people's preferences. I mean, figure skating is not the Miss World competition, and even that competition has today its own define rules, based on different stages of more/less objective criteria.

 

[Skatesocs]

I remember one year the ISU rules were written up in such a way as to emphasize "whole body movement." All the skaters went down the ice bobbing up and down from the waist looking like pigeons.

I think "whole body movement" is still a level rule? (For 1/3 of the sequence? I need to actually take an interest in the rulebook at times lol). But now I want a video from the season you're talking about

 

[Skatesocs]

Which is the most logical thing to do, thank you.

But it flies in the face of what I'm saying and the way you structured your sentence you made it sound like your view was supported by the rulebook, and that the judges' was too, but in reality, your view is supported by the judges and you go back to the rulebook and try to interpret it in the way the judges do

It's also the point Blades is making. He and Joe Inman both feel their interpretation of what's written is correct, not yours. What is to say your interpretation of literality is correct? You support it via the judges. If the judges were different would you support that too? (Probably yes). This happens in government too, where different political factions have different interpretations of a constitution for instance

 

[Baron Vladimir]

It's also the point Blades is making. He and Joe Inman both feel their interpretation of what's written is correct, not yours. What is to say your interpretation of literality is correct? You support it via the judges. If the judges were different would you support that too? (Probably yes). This happens in government too, where different political factions have different interpretations of a constitution for instance

I would never connect figure skating with different interpretations of political fractions. I was too young to watch the sport in 6.0 era, sorry.

 

[Skatesocs]

I forgot how amazingly Disco Zagitova's illusion turns look in her combo spin to that percussion

 

[Skatesocs]

I would never connect figure skating with different interpretations of political fractions.

I was too young to watch the sport in 6.0 era, sorry.

You also seem to be missing the point, lol. Your thinking is based on what the judges do. If the judges were different you would just think in their way. There seems to be no rigour or interpretation of your own. Like Daniil Gleikhenghauz's choreography. It's not my fault if you don't see how rulebooks are interpreted by multiple parties in any organisation having a rulebook politics was just an obvious example. If you can't connect that, well... I totally get why you would default to what the judges think

And so it's either that or you must also be too old to know how to access YouTube

 

[zounger]

Me, obviously But i'm praising all of current skaters, so

Yes, I’ve seen your post. You were the only one in this Plushenko thread so technically you don’t qualify as people but as person . We need another one to make it people. Mathman was offered to make it people and make the statement true but except that he did It afterwards, I don’t think what he said Will qualify as a praising either since it’s something you can find even in Wikipedia. So I insist that people here are not praising Alina’s SS and I would like it remain like this. TherE are other better Russian ladies to talk about if someone wants to make a break from Plushenko and others.

 

[voolfee]

It's funny how here people constantly try to belittle Alina's SS. Well, don’t admit that she’s the best in SS, as I think, but how can you not admit that she’s one of the best in SS? Don't answer me, this is a question into the void.

 

[flanker]

People say Alina’s skating skills are amazing, but I just don’t get it. She’s improved a lot, I must say, but I still think her movements were very sloppy and her SS weren’t good at all during her first senior season, more visibly in her Swan Lake program. I know everybody loves the Swan Lake program, but for me Cleopatra >>>>> Swan Lake. So, that spiral wasn’t even that bad when I remember how cringey Swan Lake is for me. I must say, however, that I’m not hating on Alina, I’m a huge fan, I just don’t think I have to like all her programs and pretend her flaws don’t exist.

Yeah, "I'm a fan of Alina (or other skater, currently targeted by self-proclaimed skating technique experts), but..." version 4356

All this always ends with how crappy Alina (or XY) is and how flawless and perfect Kim, Kostner or whichever lady from good old times of figure skating is. No. The thing is that skating skills is the thing that people can talk for hours. It's not like a jump, where you can more or less succesfully (depending on camera angle, picture quality etc.) show edges, URs and other aspects and say this is a good/bad/average jump. Nyet. You can talk talk talk and you can always shield yourself by a big name. "Kim's/Kostner's skating skills were so much better..:" Who would even dare to object against such big caliber.

Well, I dare. First, skating skills are just one of many aspects of figure skating. There is no reason for using particularly skating skills as the stick to "beat the dog" (=particular skaters, it is always reduced to several particular names with Alina being the honorary queen of "being bashed endlessly" royal court), while never ever offer the broader evaluation of overal qualities of that particular skater, only the alleged negative ones (and with the proclaimed knowledge of those who do that they should be able to do so with their left leg ). It is truly hitting the eyes how it is always and exclusively this way. And "I'm a fan but" doesn't give your statements any validity.

Second, the skating skills. There is the proper way how skating skills should be evaluated in competition and that is the only thing that matters. Although during my time here I was forced to read pages after pages about why "this particular skater is a crap", I honestly never ever read anything specific, objective and verifiable that would truly show any conflict between the ISU rules and those bashed skaters skating. Edges, balance, rhythm, flow etc., nothing that would be missing while presented with the "skaters of good old FS times we all want to be back" (at least some of us don't, some of us are perfectly happy with how FS is now, well, esp. after the communications 2323 and 2324 were revoked ).


Third, I honestly think that if someone sees FS as a branch where skating skills (or rather their own concept of skating skills) are literally the only thing that matters (and from many claims here it looks like that), than I bet the special sport should be created for him.

 

[dunffvanstorn]

Yeah, "I'm a fan of Alina (or other skater, currently targeted by self-proclaimed skating technique experts), but..." version 4356

All this always ends with how crappy Alina (or XY) is and how flawless and perfect Kim, Kostner or whichever lady from good old times of figure skating is. No. The thing is that skating skills is the thing that people can talk for hours. It's not like a jump, where you can more or less succesfully (depending on camera angle, picture quality etc.) show edges, URs and other aspects and say this is a good/bad/average jump. Nyet. You can talk talk talk and you can always shield yourself by a big name. "Kim's/Kostner's skating skills were so much better..:" Who would even dare to object against such big caliber.

Well, I dare. First, skating skills are just one of many aspects of figure skating. There is no reason for using particularly skating skills as the stick to "beat the dog" (=particular skaters, it is always reduced to several particular names with Alina being the honorary queen of "being bashed endlessly" royal court), while never ever offer the broader evaluation of overal qualities of that particular skater, only the alleged negative ones (and with the proclaimed knowledge of those who do that they should be able to do so with their left leg ). It is truly hitting the eyes how it is always and exclusively this way. And "I'm a fan but" doesn't give your statements any validity.

Second, the skating skills. There is the proper way how skating skills should be evaluated in competition and that is the only thing that matters. Although during my time here I was forced to read pages after pages about why "this particular skater is a crap", I honestly never ever read anything specific, objective and verifiable that would truly show any conflict between the ISU rules and those bashed skaters skating. Edges, balance, rhythm, flow etc., nothing that would be missing while presented with the "skaters of good old FS times we all want to be back" (at least some of us don't, some of us are perfectly happy with how FS is now, well, esp. after the communications 2323 and 2324 were revoked ).


Third, I honestly think that if someone sees FS as a branch where skating skills (or rather their own concept of skating skills) are literally the only thing that matters (and from many claims here it looks like that), than I bet the special sport should be created for him.

That’s all a matter of perception. Maybe you still haven’t watched figure skating enough to understand what people are talking about when they talk about skating skills.
Alina is so good that I keep wondering what her skating would be like with better skating skills and posture.
I didn’t compare Alina with Yuna and Kostner at any moment. And, if you want me to, I can criticize them too. Yuna wasn’t a good spinner and didn’t point her toes. She also wasn’t very flexible. But her speed and flow on the ice were on a whole different level. Carolina isn’t always consistent and has stiff shoulders. But both Carolina and Yuna are legends, and so is Alina.
I think identifying flaws in a skater is important, because we can pressure the system to make skaters even better. Proof is that Eteri’s juniors and novices are already much better in skating skills. Have you ever seen anyone criticizing Kamila for her skating skills? No, because they’re great. Kamila is criticized for something that’s not even her fault, which is the choreography she’s given. Eteri has learnt, her skaters were very criticized for lack os skating skills, she trained the younger girls with better SS. That’s why criticizing is important.
Now, imagine if Alina had been trained by Eteri with this mindset of focusing on skating skills, she would be on a whole other level. Or, even better, imagine if Eteri started to train Alina right now focusing on improving her posture and skating skills - wouldn’t it be awesome?

 

[flanker]

That’s all a matter of perception. Maybe you still haven’t watched figure skating enough to understand what people are talking about when they talk about skating skills.

This is nothing but "I'm an expert and you are not" kind of arguing. Doesn't work for me. You have no credit to lecture people on how much they "should watch to understand".

Alina is so good that I keep wondering what her skating would be like with better skating skills and posture.
I didn’t compare Alina with Yuna and Kostner at any moment. And, if you want me to, I can criticize them too. Yuna wasn’t a good spinner and didn’t point her toes. She also wasn’t very flexible. But her speed and flow on the ice were on a whole different level. Carolina isn’t always consistent and has stiff shoulders. But both Carolina and Yuna are legends, and so is Alina.
I think identifying flaws in a skater is important, because we can pressure the system to make skaters even better. Proof is that Eteri’s juniors and novices are already much better in skating skills. Have you ever seen anyone criticizing Kamila for her skating skills? No, because they’re great. Kamila is criticized for something that’s not even her fault, which is the choreography she’s given. Eteri has learnt, her skaters were very criticized for lack os skating skills, she trained the younger girls with better SS. That’s why criticizing is important.
Now, imagine if Alina had been trained by Eteri with this mindset of focusing on skating skills, she would be on a whole other level. Or, even better, imagine if Eteri started to train Alina right now focusing on improving her posture and skating skills - wouldn’t it be awesome?

Skating skills and posture became the tool used on daily basis against Alina since she started to defeat "meritorious queens" of figure skating, like "yes, she may have 3Lz-3Lo, but she can't keep her posture/she is not fluid/blahblah". and while people who made those complaints persistently (from whom you have just took the baton), they also frequently started their comments with "I'm no hating on Alina, but..." During the years among the figure skating fans I became thick-skinned against this type of comments, that always go for finding something negative, only the negative and forever negative, while always the same names are presented as paragons of how figure skating should look like. That's why I talk now as I talk (and maybe sometimes I oppose everything what the same people with very similar comments object, even if it wasn't in that particular comment, because, to be honest, in general the rhetoric is always the same). At the beginning I left some space for doubts, but not now, it's always the same. At teh end it always shows it's nothing but the matter of taste of that particular person, who just likes particular styles (done by particular coaches - that's why some skaters are pardoned immediately after they change for more preferred coach ).

So, properly speaking. Alina's skating skills perfectly fit the rules, they fulfill required standards and they look great and attractive in motion for me. She accelerates, she keeps the rhythm, she has fluid moves, uses edges, one foot skating, there and back again If people criticize that she doesn't hold positions longer, well, if keeping positions longer would be evaluated as high as fulfilling the program with content (or with nonsense, as some here try to prove), than I bet we would see more Inna Bauers instead of Alina Bauers, but I don't complain about that

Of other skaters I would say that Kamila's and Kaori's skating skills have the same or higher level, Carolina is on par (with inferior technical content, however). Though now I go heretic mode, I don't consider Ashley Wagner, Yuna Kim and many other frequently mentioned skaters on higher level of skating skills. To me that's a matter of style, not the matter of quality.

It's not that anything couldn't be better (limit is always only what is physically possible). It's just after the three years sincwe Alina got on the top I'm truly annoyed with any other "I'm Alina fan, but...", while, as I often say, I've never saw that partcular person who made that comment present anywhere near when Alina did/won something great. Not a smallest sign of appreciation (of course when I object that, some of them make the step "I never denied she was great" or something similar to what you just did, but I always have hard times to believe in honesty of it). The same applies to Anna and particularly to Daniil's work. Those are the names that somehow are allowed to criticize much more harshly and frequently than anybody else. With that I definitely don't say that everything what Daniil did was a masterpiece, but when two or three recent threads with completely different topic turn into "Daniil's choreos are such a shame", I think that shows a lot about people's attitude.

P.S: I promise my following comments will be much shorter

 

[Mathman]

I don’t think what he said Will qualify as a praising either since it’s something you can find even in Wikipedia.

See? Even Wikipedia praises them both. :yes:

First, skating skills are just one of many aspects of figure skating.

I understand what you are saying. But that sentence struck me as funny.

This is a skating contest. It's like saying, football skills are only one aspect of playing football. Running fast is only one aspect of the 100 meter.

I wish they would find a more precise term than "skating skills," which seems like it covers everything a skater does on the ice. No wonder there is so much disagreement about the term.

 

[Skatesocs]

I wish they would find a more precise term than "skating skills," which seems like it covers everything a skater does on the ice. No wonder there is so much disagreement about the term.

Blade to ice! But I am more partial to "pure skating" or simply "skating technique".

If we just said "Satoko Miyahara is the best pure skater competing today" the meaning is clear IMO.

 

[flanker]

See? Even Wikipedia praises them both. :yes:



I understand what you are saying. But that sentence struck me as funny.

This is a skating contest. It's like saying, football skills are only one aspect of playing football. Running fast is only one aspect of the 100 meter.

I wish they would find a more precise term than "skating skills," which seems like it covers everything a skater does on the ice. No wonder there is so much disagreement about the term.

Good example with football skills. Because sometimes to me the attitude of people towards FS is as if in football it was more about dodges, passes and acting skills (say hello to Neymar) than about scoring goals

 

[Baron Vladimir]

I wish they would find a more precise term than "skating skills," which seems like it covers everything a skater does on the ice. No wonder there is so much disagreement about the term.

Skating Skills mark doesn't cover everything skater does on ice. It covers 6 exact categories. Skating skills outside the ISU figure skating competition can be much more, but in ISU skating competition they are approximation of 6 things. In the ISU competiton, degree of knee bending is not that important part of SS, bending over is not that important part of SS, having a perfect posture is not that important part of SS, skating 'musically' or being 'artistic' is not that important part of SS, looking nice/or elegant while skating is not that important part of SS. Some judges may of course include those things to up or down their mark, but they are not the one SS mark is based on. SS is also not skaters overall blade to ice knowledge, but demonstration of it in a context of the one whole figure skating programme which includes many of required elements. Karolina or Satoko may have the best SS in the world, if they are not able/trained enough/mentally ready to present all of them in the context of the programme (due to preparation of the jumps, too much concentration on the music or other aspects of skating programme) their mark for SS won't be the perfect one. So there is a big difference to judge SS in a vacuum and in a context (defined by ISU) of one skating programme in one exact competition. And we can look at different judging sheets of different competition to see there is no really much disagreement between different people about it topic:

 

[plushyfan]

Good example with football skills. Because sometimes to me the attitude of people towards FS is as if in football it was more about dodges, passes and acting skills (say hello to Neymar) than about scoring goals

But what about football without Ronaldinho? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dBz4dTZocg