2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[Fried]

She's similar to Korpi in the sense that she has never been to a single training session in Sambo-70 and never-ever talked to the skaters from TeamTut (...)

Incidentally, this connects her also with you and all other posters here.
Neither of you have participated in a single training session in Sambo-70 or spoken to TeamTut's skaters. Nevertheless, you always know everything very well and above all better than those whose opinions do not suit you.

 

[flanker]

Incidentally, this connects her also with you and all other posters here.
Neither of you have participated in a single training session in Sambo-70 or spoken to TeamTut's skaters. Nevertheless, you always know everything very well and above all better than those whose opinions do not suit you.

It's the person who makes an accusation that should deliver a proof or high knowledge about the particular subject, which is obviously too hard to understand. Not to think the way "I am allowed to make any accusation I want even if I don't know a thing."

Though, even former Eteri skaters usually speak highly or at least friendly about her (Shelepen, Sakhanovich, Tsurskaya), with the exception of Shuboderova, or never made any accusations particular people eagerly expected.

Actually, there are parents allowed to attend the training sessions to prevent any misunderstandings or hoaxes and if they disagree with something, they can communicate with the coach.

 

[Fried]

It's the person who makes an accusation that should deliver a proof or high knowledge about the particular subject, which is obviously too hard to understand. Not to think the way "I am allowed to make any accusation I want even if I don't know a thing." (...)

Well, at least she gives the name of the person whose statement she is quoting and who knows very well what he is talking about; which is obviously too hard to understand.
This distinguishes her from several posters here in the forum, which can obviously make any accusation without knowing anything and without being able to name sources.
I'm thinking of things like "Father Trusov made the decision for Sasha to go to Plushenko", "Father Trusov was all about money", "Father Trusov quickly made the deal before Sasha turned 16", " Plushenko attracted Trusova with a lot of money", "Plushenko's wife wrote Sasha's comment" and so on and so on.
But what am I talking about? You basically know that better than I do.

 

[Scott512]

She's similar to Korpi in the sense that she has never been to a single training session in Sambo-70 and never-ever talked to the skaters from TeamTut; difference is that Korpi never wanted to be the dress designer for Sambo-70 skaters but failed to get a single order.

All true. The way you differentiate between Korpi and Natalia is brilliant.

I truly don't get the anger and hatred towards this coach and her team who are basically carrying once great Russian Sports which has dwindled in the eye of the international public because of the drug scandal thanks to Putin and his PED stooges running and ruining the sports program's especially the athletics department. Eteri and her girls have been the shining light for the
much beleaguered Russian Sports in recent years along with rhythmic gymnastics. That should make Russians and Russian sports fans happy.

 

[Tolstoj]

She's similar to Korpi in the sense that she has never been to a single training session in Sambo-70 and never-ever talked to the skaters from TeamTut; difference is that Korpi never wanted to be the dress designer for Sambo-70 skaters but failed to get a single order.

I don't the like this bashfest against Korpi who just raised frankly valid questions like: We're all in front of a girls who weight probably less than 40kg and they go for quad toe or even quad lutz, ISU still talks about safe sport? What a joke.

Yes she has never worked with Eteri or been at Sambo70 but she has had a competitive career in figure skating, she knows how abusive coaches can be so i think it's absolutely fair to raise questions, promoting healthy athletes.

Unfortunately fans always treat it as national insult even raising these questions, which is why i've always believed outside the Olympics, Figure Skating should be about competing clubs not competing countries cause this has nothing to do with patriotism.

 

[JazzUp]

Actually, there are parents allowed to attend the training sessions to prevent any misunderstandings or hoaxes and if they disagree with something, they can communicate with the coach.

They are not ALLOWED, Eteri actually INSISTS THEY ATTEND the training sessions. So, it's either one of the two:

- all of the parents are deaf & blind to the constant abuse of their children at Sambo-70; or worse, condone it *
- there is no abuse to speak of

* and these 'abusers' have their own chat groups and a forum where they discuss everything (and I mean everything) about Sambo-70 (but somehow fail to touch the subject of abuse)

 

[JazzUp]

Yes she has never worked with Eteri or been at Sambo70

Pray tell then, how can she be qualified to talk about Eteri's methods then if she hasn't seen them in action and never talked to anyone who was trained using those methods? On the basis of "I've heard people talk..."?

 

[flanker]

I don't the like this bashfest against Korpi who just raised frankly valid questions like: We're all in front of a girls who weight probably less than 40kg and they go for quad toe or even quad lutz, we're still talking about safe sport? What a joke.

Yes she has never worked with Eteri or been at Sambo70 but she has had a competitive career in figure skating, she knows how abusive coaches can be so i think it's absolutely fair to raise questions, promoting healthy athletes.

Unfortunately fans always treat it as national insult even raising these questions, which is why i've always believed outside the Olympics, Figure Skating should be about competing clubs not competing countries cause this has nothing to do with patriotism.

We spent hours, days and weeks about this topic, I don't find any gain in repeating everything that was said on this. I do doubt that anoyone would actually bring something that wasn't heard before.

 

[Tolstoj]

Pray tell then, how can she be qualified to talk about Eteri's methods then if she hasn't seen them in action and never talked to anyone who was trained using those methods? On the basis of "I've heard people talk..."?

The very fact alone that you put 10-11 year old girls as thin as a rake to train quads extensively raise questions.

We should study how safe this is really, is it really possible to not end up severely injured and retire at the age of 17-18 working like that and what about the psychological consequences nobody in this sport ever addresses?

 

[flanker]

They are not ALLOWED, Eteri actually INSISTS THEY ATTEND the training sessions. So, it's either one of the two:

- all of the parents are deaf & blind to the constant abuse of their children at Sambo-70; or worse, condone it *
- there is no abuse to speak of

* and these 'abusers' have their own chat groups and a forum where they discuss everything (and I mean everything) about Sambo-70 (but somehow fail to touch the subject of abuse)

That's actually what I meant. Why the more people have their own real experience with Eteri's training the less you hear any complaints, while those you actually hear are those who judge just by their "inner sense" or whatever.

I don't want to trivialize any reasonable fear about (esp. young) athletes' health, but "raising questions" costs nothing. There is an actual thread here about the interview with Rachel Flatt, former skater who is actually truly busy with the athlete's health (she wrote dissertation about it), eating disorders etc. and speaks on this topic from an actual scientifical perspetive, collecting true data, proposing valuable measures etc. It's not about gaining five minutes of glory through an interview but real subject of research. That's what I praise, not "raising concerns" from the table. Though it is sad that there are just about four comments in that thread, not 20 pages like in particular different threads.

 

[JazzUp]

The very fact alone that you put 10-11 year old girls as thin as a rake to train quads extensively raise questions.

The very fact that you have no idea about the difference of the impact that 2-3-4 turn jumps have on a body makes this discussion pointless from the start. To have a serious discussion one requires data first and foremost. Or should we just ban quads/triples/doubles, to be on the safe side?

 

[fabienne1996]

So whose programms do we know about already, zhenya already announced both of her programms, we have one of Alyona, will alina stay with her2 programms from last season? Since she only showed them 3 times? But weknow none of the others or have i missed those announcements?

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[AshWagsFan]

That's actually what I meant. Why the more people have their own real experience with Eteri's training the less you hear any complaints, while those you actually hear are those who judge just by their "inner sense" or whatever.

I don't want to trivialize any reasonable fear about (esp. young) athletes' health, but "raising questions" costs nothing. There is an actual thread here about the interview with Rachel Flatt, former skater who is actually truly busy with the athlete's health (she wrote dissertation about it), eating disorders etc. and speaks on this topic from an actual scientifical perspetive, collecting true data, proposing valuable measures etc. It's not about gaining five minutes of glory through an interview but real subject of research. That's what I praise, not "raising concerns" from the table. Though it is sad that there are just about four comments in that thread, not 20 pages like in particular different threads.

I agree, I think a person is technically “innocent until proven guilty.” I’ve said before that I believe abusive behaviors may take place at Sambo-70, however, without ever being at the training camp (or even to Russia quite frankly), we cannot out Eteri as an abusive coach. Maybe in the future more evidence will be revealed and more former students from Sambo-70 will come forward stating they were abused while they skated there, but, UNLESS that happens, I cannot insist on her being abusive. We could also see more studies being shown on skaters’ mental health and physical health that change the way skaters view the coaches’ behavior at Sambo-70 (again, all theoretical unless that happens). We do not know anything for sure, so why ponder it? If people want to make changes at Sambo-70, they will.

Unfortunately, unless more well known skaters that trained at Sambo-70 and left (like Trusova and Zhenya) state that the coaches were abusive, I don’t think everyone will believe Shuboderova‘s allegations.

 

[flanker]

So whose programms do we know about already, zhenya already announced both of her programms, we have one of Alyona, will alina stay with her2 programms from last season? Since she only showed them 3 times? But weknow none of the others or have i missed those announcements?

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Junior test skates should start at 10th august so I expect some announcements in the upcoming fortnight. As for Alina, some time before Daniil and Alina mentioned the music for the programs is chosen, so we should expect new programs.

 

[Tolstoj]

The very fact that you have no idea about the difference of the impact that 2-3-4 turn jumps have on a body makes this discussion pointless from the start. To have a serious discussion one requires data first and foremost. Or should we just ban quads/triples/doubles, to be on the safe side?

We do know however how many injuries were brought by the quads in men's figure skating with much much stronger bodies than these girls.

I'm not saying it's all bad, but it's a case study and i think ISU in the first place should do their researches instead of act like it's all good, cause then the seminars about safe sport look like a joke.

 

[JazzUp]

I'm not saying it's all bad, but it's a case study and i think ISU in the first place should do their researches

So let's wait for the research, maybe, before bashing anyone?

 

[flanker]

I agree, I think a person is technically “innocent until proven guilty.” I’ve said before that I believe abusive behaviors may take place at Sambo-70, however, without ever being at the training camp (or even to Russia quite frankly), we cannot out Eteri as an abusive coach. Maybe in the future more evidence will be revealed and more former students from Sambo-70 will come forward stating they were abused while they skated there, but, UNLESS that happens, I cannot insist on her being abusive. We could also see more studies being shown on skaters’ mental health and physical health that change the way skaters view the coaches’ behavior at Sambo-70 (again, all theoretical unless that happens). We do not know anything for sure, so why ponder it? If people want to make changes at Sambo-70, they will.

The thing is you hear it nor from the skaters nor from the parents themselves, not even those whose children don't skate there anymore. Of course, some could object that "the standards in Russia are somewhere else and they need to be civilized " or whatever, but I don't like such allusions assuming there is a paradise everywhere else. Not with the cases like Karolyi's and many more that actually nobody cared about till it brought medals.

First, it should be solidly specified what should be considered as abusive and what not. The problem starts just with this, because it's not only about Russia/east vs. the rest but you would probably hardly find easy consensus even in the west. I bet Raf has different standards than let's say Zakrajsek and both of them would see it differently than Brian Orser. Also different people have different attitude towards "dicipline" vs. free decision of the athlete. Maybe I would be for some codex of the coaches, but truly widely accepted, not like one side would just impose their standards to the others.

 

[Tolstoj]

So let's wait for the research, maybe, before bashing anyone?

A research nobody is doing however cause ISU conveniently ignores all of this, and that's what Kiira Korpi is talking about.

 

[Amei]

So whose programms do we know about already, zhenya already announced both of her programms, we have one of Alyona, will alina stay with her2 programms from last season? Since she only showed them 3 times? But weknow none of the others or have i missed those announcements?

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Considering test skates for Juniors are supposed to be in like 2 weeks and I believe Senior test skates is usually within a few weeks after that, so if those go on as intended then we should know shortly

 

[Scott512]

That's actually what I meant. Why the more people have their own real experience with Eteri's training the less you hear any complaints, while those you actually hear are those who judge just by their "inner sense" or whatever.

I don't want to trivialize any reasonable fear about (esp. young) athletes' health, but "raising questions" costs nothing. There is an actual thread here about the interview with Rachel Flatt, former skater who is actually truly busy with the athlete's health (she wrote dissertation about it), eating disorders etc. and speaks on this topic from an actual scientifical perspetive, collecting true data, proposing valuable measures etc. It's not about gaining five minutes of glory through an interview but real subject of research. That's what I praise, not "raising concerns" from the table. Though it is sad that there are just about four comments in that thread, not 20 pages like in particular different threads.

Your first paragraph says it all. isn't it peculiar the parents are always invited to the sambo-70 training and no parents ever complain and yet people who don't go to the trainings are always complaining. Hmmmm. It really is agenda-driven.

by the way this doesn't mean that they are perfect at sambo-70 or that EG is perfect they are not and nobody is. They are just light years better than the rest with ladies figure skating.