Irina Slutskaya and Olympics 2002

[Skatesocs]

Cohen's 2006 spiral has 6 features, so that comes down to the argument about what the maximum cap should be on levels for elements.

Yes, or to assign additional difficulty via GOE. I guess it will always be a problem with prescribing via written rules.

This was a good discussion :yes:

 

[David21]

Of course there is. You could start by linking to a commentator who said otherwise. I'm waiting.

Nice try. ;-) You haven't linked to any commentators who said those spirals were the best and now you expect me to give out links to prove the opposite. It doesn't matter anyway since those would only be arguments of authority. When you were trying to analyse to the technical aspects of the spirals yourself you were already failing miserably.

 

[Skatesocs]

It doesn't matter anyway since those would only be arguments of authority.

Yes. We let people have their TimeCubes, usually.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Nice try. ;-) You haven't linked to any commentators who said those spirals were the best and now you expect me to give out links to prove the opposite. It doesn't matter anyway since those would only be arguments of authority.

I don't need to link any, you can go click on any random youtube video of those performances and will likely hear it. Or notice how Cohen received all +2 and +3 GOE for her spiral sequence in 2006 while Slutskaya had only 0 and +1. The evidence is so abundant and well known that it's like you claiming covid doesn't spread easily, and saying it's propaganda to state such a thing.

You're correct that the opinions of commentators and judges are just their opinions, but I was also talking about how things were perceived, which makes those opinions relevant.

When you were trying to analyse to the technical aspects of the spirals yourself you were already failing miserably.

You've yet to show an ounce of reasoning about the topic or disprove a single thing I've written. My own spiral extensions might be a failure these days, but I understand the mechanics very well, thanks.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Too much for who? Someone that doesn't want to consider the possibility of the top Russian skater being off the podium? And why does it matter about 3 USA ladies on a podium? These 4 skaters could have been from Greenland, Taiwan, Guatemala, and Mongolia for all I care. What they did on the ice and how it should be evaluated has nothing to do with their country.

It just looks like that. I don't have much knowledge how giving the marks worked in 6.0 era, but in many aspects of todays components scores, precisely 'more technical' ones Slutskaya was far ahead Sasha Kohen at that Olympics. Giving the fact Sasha fell in her program, her PErformance would be also higher. In some aspects of components, Slutskaya was ahead of Michele Kwan too, as speed, acceleration, one foot skating, usage of both feet etc. Her jumping elements were above Michelle and Sasha and she was on pair with Michelle in spins. So, i dont see how Michelle and Sasha with a fall could be ahead of her. Based on INterpretation of the music, which is like 1/10 (!?) of the total marks

 

[Skatesocs]

In some aspects of components, Slutskaya was clearly ahead of Michele Kwan too, as speed, acceleration, one foot skating, usage of both feet etc.

Please point out where and how, as he did a few pages back. Most of us (me, Blades, CanadianSkaterGuy anyway) say Slutskaya was slow. Would be great if you could argue the opposite. And the only ones who bothered to analyse ALL have Kwan second over Slutskaya.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Please point out where and how, as he did a few pages back. Most of us
(me, Blades, CanadianSkaterGuy anyway) say Slutskaya was slow. Would be great if you could argue the opposite. And the only ones who bothered to analyse ALL have Kwan second over Slutskaya.

From the TV screen Slutskaya certainly appeared as faster at that competition, taking both short and long. Only Sarah Hughes appeared as fast to me. You can also see that even 4 years later when Sasha was better skater components wise, Irina SS scores were still slightly ahead.

 

[Skatesocs]

From the TV screen Slutskaya certainly appeared as faster at that competition, taking both short and long. Only Sarah Hughes appeared as fast to me. You can also see that even 4 years later when Sasha was better skater components wise, Slutskaya SS scores were still slightly ahead.

Ok. So since it appears different to you, the only explanation is nationalistic bias. Got it :agree:

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Ok. So since it appears different to you, the only explanation is nationalistic bias. Got it :agree:

Ok, i've just watch it again and even NBC commentators noted that. Not just the French ones. And not just my eyes. So no, it is not a bias! Giving the fact that only one judge put Slutskaya in 4th and that mark wouldn't even count in the new system, its very clear who is biased here.

 

[Mathman]

Please point out where and how, as he did a few pages back. Most of us (me, Blades, CanadianSkaterGuy anyway) say Slutskaya was slow. Would be great if you could argue the opposite. And the only ones who bothered to analyse ALL have Kwan second over Slutskaya.

If we are still talking about just that one performance (the 2002 Olympic LP) then this is well taken.

In general, though, Irina did have very efficient and powerful stroking and command of one-foot skating.

On the other hand, here is a Michelle spiral all on one foot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYwAZb14Ags&t=2m25s

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Of course there is. You could start by linking to a commentator who said otherwise. I'm waiting.

This is a straw man proposal requesting for a commentator who literally said that Kwan or Cohen didn’t have the best spirals in the world, and a weak straw man at that.

I’ll play too! Find me a commentator who said Slutskaya’s spiral sequence wasn’t the best in the Olympics. I’m waiting.

 

[Mathman]

This is a straw man proposal requesting for a commentator who literally said that Kwan or Cohen didn’t have the best spirals in the world, and a weak straw man at that.

Not at all. If any commentator said, "Fumie Suguri has the best spiral in the world," that would count as saying that Michelle and Sasha were not the best.

I’ll play too! Find me a commentator who said Slutskaya’s spiral sequence wasn’t the best in the Olympics. I’m waiting.

Again, any commentator who said that Michelle and Sasha were the best, by inference is saying that Irina was not the best.

My memory is that most commentators did say that Michelle and Sasha had great spirals, but I don't remember anyone saying the same about Suguri or Slutskaya (or Hughes). I might be wrong, though -- I did not listen to a lot of world-wide commentary in those days.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

About her edging, while it may be shallower, that's mostly inherent to doing such an extremely flexible spiral. It's nearly impossible to do a spiral on a deep edge in complete split position. I think her edging is very acceptable for the positions she is doing, I don't see it being particularly shaky. Check out some of the edge change features people were trying to do, including Slutskaya when she added that feature, for a bobbling edge...

Cohen's 2006 spiral has 6 features, so that comes down to the argument about what the maximum cap should be on levels for elements. I wouldn't be bothered by her removing the edge change from that sequence..

Skaters add more features than required all the time - and I think they should be allowed to if they want to ensure a max level.

Kwan’s edge change was very secure but you can see in her Y kick up that you love so much the edge was wobbling and her back spiral edge gets a bit wobbly as she lowers her leg.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

The spiral, as beautiful and artistically impactful as some are, was a relatively not important element. In 2006, the BV of a top level spiral was similar to that of a spin, and less than a 2A. I can't imagine it was that much more important under 6.0, despite the outsized importance it was given by American commentators. In no way should it have decided a competitive outcome when the execution of other elements like jumps and spins weren't close between two skaters. If a skater does better spins, and three of them in a program, that should be three times as important as doing a better spiral. An extra triple should negate any advantage of a great spiral, at least on the technical score.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I don't have much knowledge how giving the marks worked in 6.0 era, but in many aspects of todays components scores, precisely 'more technical' ones Slutskaya was far ahead Sasha Kohen at that Olympics. Giving the fact Sasha fell in her program, her PErformance would be also higher. In some aspects of components, Slutskaya was ahead of Michele Kwan too, as speed, acceleration, one foot skating, usage of both feet etc. Her jumping elements were above Michelle and Sasha and she was on pair with Michelle in spins. So, i dont see how Michelle and Sasha with a fall could be ahead of her. Based on INterpretation of the music, which is like 1/10 (!?) of the total marks

Falling doesn't mean your performance is worse. Kwan and Cohen were far ahead of Slutskaya in performance, having more expression (both facial and body) and more connection to the movement and sense of purpose in presenting themselves. The same goes for their choreography and interpretation. Slutskaya was absolutely not better than Kwan in skating skills when looking at those LP's either. Where is the supposed great acceleration and one-foot skating? She was noticeably slower than usual in that performance and didn't utilize her edges and one-foot capability as much. Even Cohen with her overall weaker skating skills showed a better one-foot movement and turn, with her forward turning spiral in full split position, than anything Slutskaya did in her program. The single most difficult thing Slutskaya did in that regard was her turning 3's in the Triple Loop.

As you can see in the other thread, Slutskaya can be significantly far behind components and only 6th best of the competition.

Giving the fact that only one judge put Slutskaya in 4th and that mark wouldn't even count in the new system, its very clear who is biased here.

How would that mark not count, LOL? He clearly thought she was the worst of the 4. Trying to use this as some kind of statement of bias is empty rhetoric anyway. It's also far easier to argue the judges were biased in favor of Slutskaya because of her reputation. You show your own bias by declaring that 3 Americans can't be on the podium.

The spiral, as beautiful and artistically impactful as some are, was a relatively not important element. In 2006, the BV of a top level spiral was similar to that of a spin, and less than a 2A. If a skater does better spins, and three of them in a program, that should be three times as important as doing a better spiral.

An extra triple should negate any advantage of a great spiral, at least on the technical score.

The spiral sequence was a very important element, Level 4 spiral received full-point factoring on the GOE, spins were only given half-point GOE factoring. The BV was not lower than a 2A either. The spiral sequence also lasted longer than most spins, and everything you do in a program is choreography, so the spiral is therefore contributing more towards a program than a typical spin. It's generally a better display of skating skill as well. In 2002 era there weren't as many features expected in spins either.

...and Slutskaya didn't have an extra triple over any of the top competition.

Kwan’s edge change was very secure but you can see in her Y kick up that you love so much the edge was wobbling and her back spiral edge gets a bit wobbly as she lowers her leg.

Kwan's edge is not wobbly. Her edge obviously shifts as she goes up into the Y because she's not trying to hold the position, it's supposed to be free and spontaneous looking, and then she purposefully goes onto a deeper edge as the leg comes down to create a swing roll kind of effect. On the back spiral she is necessarily shifting to a shallower edge at the end because she is looking backwards and preparing to change feet, to be in a straight line going forward down the ice on the next position.

 

[NadezhdaNadya]

Since my thread about least graceful ladies skaters was deleted (it was inappropriate) I have to say that according to me Sarah Hughes did not deserve the OGM. She was probably the least graceful ladies skater in history.

 

[TallyT]

Not at all. If any commentator said, "Fumie Suguri has the best spiral in the world," that would count as saying that Michelle and Sasha were not the best.

Again, any commentator who said that Michelle and Sasha were the best, by inference is saying that Irina was not the best.

Thank you! I was beginning to wonder if I'd woken up in an alternate Humpty Dumpty universe.

She was probably the least graceful ladies skater in history.

Nope, that would be me But I'm impressed that you have seen every other on on the planet...

 

[NadezhdaNadya]

Nope, that would be me But I'm impressed that you have seen every other on on the planet...

I have not. But since the old inappropriate thread is deleted now I would not watch in the future either. From what I have seen so far it is definitely Hughes.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I have not. But since the old inappropriate thread is deleted now I would not watch in the future either. From what I have seen so far it is definitely Hughes.

Sloppy or not, she was solid in an overall mediocre event. Any of the three SP leaders would have won with clean, 7 triple programs (or even 6 for Kwan).

 

[Mathman]

^ Hughes was OK in the grace department. Maybe still a little on the coltish side. She steadily climbed the ladder in international competition; by the time of the Olympics she had displaced Maria Butyrskaya as #3 in the world and had beaten both Kwan and Slutskaya at a major event..

To me, there can be no question at all of the placement of the top three (leaving Sasha Cohen out of consideration for the moment). Hughes had the hardest technical content in the LP and delivered it with panache and elan. Her weaknesses were nitpicks compared to the the others. Slutskaya was slow and tentative. Michelle fell twice (but did not give up on the performance even so). 1, 2, 3.

Nothing to see here, folks.