2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[NAOTMAA]

I think its funny everyone talking about the lack of expression on Valieva's face yet no mention about Trusova who appeared to have only one facial expression as well and her music had clear and obvious tempo changes.

I guess my unpopular opinion is I actually don't see the hype for Trusova's programs this year and though last year's (no masterpieces themselves) were far better. She seem to power her way through everything including the softer section in the middle which kind of exposed her lack of musicality. At least the slower sections in last year's music were more drama oriented rather then lyrical. The choreography was also very upper body oriented (a lot of arm movement and hands to face/head) and not as much happening below the waste except the few times she lifted leg higher. Plushenko's influence was clear and obvious during the footwork sequence at the end. And the big nitpick last year of only holding her positions for a split second and not much longer still exists. Only its more noticeable now because the choreography isn't as jam packed. Yes her jumps look solid but at the beginning of last season they did too.

 

[colormyworld240]

Very true. And we didn't see a single combination from Tukt this weekend, except from that 3Lz-2A seq. She needs to work on that. Even if it's just a 3T+3T it is better pointwise. She and Mishin really needs to update themselves on how the system works when it comes to scoring points. That 2A seq is actually losing points. Maybe they just don't understand? Maybe they need some help with the maths? (Maybe Mathman can help?)

Mishin wrote an entire book on the physics of jumping, I'm sure he has no difficulty understanding how the scoring system works. The issue is probably with Liza's ability to do different combinations consistently and the versatility in her jumps. Her 3Lz as a solo jump is pretty close to perfect, and her 3A is a good jump when she lands it. However, she has struggled with -3T combinations for a couple season now. And the x-2A seq is not the only issue. She didn't do a 3S at all last season, so that takes out the possibility for an -Eu-3S combo. I would say her jumping repertoire as a whole is not very strong, even though she has two very good jumps. Because even though she can do a 3A and has a great 3Lz, her BV ends up being almost equal to another skater who can do -3Lo, -Eu-3S, and -3T combos without a 3A.

Mishin is brilliant but like any coach, he's not a magician and he can't waive a magic wand to give Liza consistent combos.

 

[NAOTMAA]

Mishin should just become a jump specialist who teaches proper technique and leave everything else to others. The kind of someone who is a small part in the machine, so it can function properly, but not the main coach. But I guess that would be too much of a downgrade though for someone of his stature

 

[colormyworld240]

It wasn't the height on the 4T that was the problem. It was the axis. I agree her 4T can be the best ladies' quad at times, but she has a tendency to have a bad axis on the jump. This leads to her landing on the wrong edge sometimes and to those scary falls. I think the height is great, the axis needs to be adjusted.

This seems to be an issue on many of the quads and 3As in general. This isn't the first time Kamila has fallen on the 4T because of the axis. Alena is also on a tilt on most of her 3As, and Sasha on her 4Lz. This is the one area in jumping that Anna is great at; all her jumps are very straight and tight in the air so when she falls most of the time it's on her bum which is the safest way to fall. Jump technique is not only take off and height/distance, air position also plays a big part in the success rate and how smooth the landing is. Sasha's 4T is also straight most of the time as well.

 

[Mathman]

Welcome, Bearry Bear. Thanks for joining us!

 

[Skatesocs]

I personally enjoy the long set-up immensely. The only thing better than a long beautiful extended edge on the approach is a long beautiful extended edge on the landing. The former says, wait for it, wait for it, are you ready? HERE IT IS!!!

You also usually need long set ups for the big lutzes...

 

[anonymoose_au]

I personally enjoy the long set-up immensely. The only thing better than a long beautiful extended edge on the approach is a long beautiful extended edge on the landing. The former says, wait for it, wait for it, are you ready? HERE IT IS!!! The latter says -- a triple Lutz? That's child's play, I can hold the landing with perfect security all day long.

When men first started doing the triple Axel, they approached the element the same way. It was usually their first jump and they took their sweet time and put a spotlight on it. "Look at this, everybody!" Later on, when everyone (men) were doing triple Axels, even juniors, the effort to create a TA DA moment was abandoned and it was just another jump.

As for the counter-rotation, I think that this requires a lot of upper body strength. Men always have better form (and a better outside edge) than ladies. A little slip of a girl like Kamila Valieva or Anna Shcherbakova is at a relative disadvantage. They have to make it work the best way they can rather than relying on just muscling themselves into the air, wrenching about in the wrong direction on the way up..

I hear that!

Call me old fashioned but I love seeing a big lead up to a jump and a glorious ride out. My dismissive attitude to the importance of transitions is how a lot of the time they've robbed us of been able to watch a flowing ride out.

I mean doing a leg kick or a little turn may be difficult, but to me it doesn't have the same beauty.

Thank you for coming to my TEDtalk

 

[Amei]

I think its funny everyone talking about the lack of expression on Valieva's face yet no mention about Trusova who appeared to have only one facial expression as well and her music had clear and obvious tempo changes.

I guess my unpopular opinion is I actually don't see the hype for Trusova's programs this year and though last year's (no masterpieces themselves) were far better. She seem to power her way through everything including the softer section in the middle which kind of exposed her lack of musicality. At least the slower sections in last year's music were more drama oriented rather then lyrical. The choreography was also very upper body oriented (a lot of arm movement and hands to face/head) and not as much happening below the waste except the few times she lifted leg higher. Plushenko's influence was clear and obvious during the footwork sequence at the end. And the big nitpick last year of only holding her positions for a split second and not much longer still exists. Only its more noticeable now because the choreography isn't as jam packed. Yes her jumps look solid but at the beginning of last season they did too.

I don't think its that no one noticed, its just Valieva is hyped as being this great artist but she has no connection on her face to the music, and it seems to be pretty common knowledge that Trusova only cares about/focuses on jumping. I made the remark in the Test skates thread, at this point R&J reminds me of GOT, it's music to play in the background while she jumps, she's not skating to the music. But it is only test skates and test skates after a very odd off-season, perhaps her focus on choreography will improve I'm not exactly holding my breath on it because we know she is going to add more quads.

Yes her jumps look solid but at the beginning of last season they did too.

Yes, for me at least I'm not going to jump on the hype train of Trusova till we see what she does in competition; she was fine in practice last season doing 4-5 quads but at competition time she had problems. Perhaps she should have gone to Mishin, who doesn't seem to care much about his ladies program content just skate back and forth doing jumps no fussing with choreography just wave your hands around a few times.

 

[silveruskate]

It wasn't the height on the 4T that was the problem. It was the axis. I agree her 4T can be the best ladies' quad at times, but she has a tendency to have a bad axis on the jump. This leads to her landing on the wrong edge sometimes and to those scary falls. I think the height is great, the axis needs to be adjusted.

But maybe if she wasn't trying to be as explosive to jump for it then she could control the axis better? I wouldn't know.

 

[readernick]

This seems to be an issue on many of the quads and 3As in general. This isn't the first time Kamila has fallen on the 4T because of the axis. Alena is also on a tilt on most of her 3As, and Sasha on her 4Lz. This is the one area in jumping that Anna is great at; all her jumps are very straight and tight in the air so when she falls most of the time it's on her bum which is the safest way to fall. Jump technique is not only take off and height/distance, air position also plays a big part in the success rate and how smooth the landing is. Sasha's 4T is also straight most of the time as well.

I agree it is a problem. But, I think it is a fixable one. Correcting edges, and prerotation is difficult but correcting the axis on a jump is completely possible. The most recent example I can think of is Rika (I know she isn't a Russian lady, sorry). She used to get a weird axis on her loops and her axels, but she has fixed this problem. As a result her 3A success rate highly increased this year, and her loop is so much better. I believe Valieva can fix this issue. If she does, her 4T will be close to perfect. I think the bigger issues for Valieva might be her lutzes and flips. Her technique is quite strange. I hope it doesn't hurt her later.

 

[Amei]

This seems to be an issue on many of the quads and 3As in general. This isn't the first time Kamila has fallen on the 4T because of the axis. Alena is also on a tilt on most of her 3As, and Sasha on her 4Lz. This is the one area in jumping that Anna is great at; all her jumps are very straight and tight in the air so when she falls most of the time it's on her bum which is the safest way to fall. Jump technique is not only take off and height/distance, air position also plays a big part in the success rate and how smooth the landing is. Sasha's 4T is also straight most of the time as well.

This is why I don't necessarily think that Shcherbakova will permanently lose her jumps, sure she might go through some growing pains but her in-air position is so good vs. someone like Valieva who has a tendency to be off-axis.

 

[silveruskate]

This seems to be an issue on many of the quads and 3As in general. This isn't the first time Kamila has fallen on the 4T because of the axis. Alena is also on a tilt on most of her 3As, and Sasha on her 4Lz. This is the one area in jumping that Anna is great at; all her jumps are very straight and tight in the air so when she falls most of the time it's on her bum which is the safest way to fall. Jump technique is not only take off and height/distance, air position also plays a big part in the success rate and how smooth the landing is. Sasha's 4T is also straight most of the time as well.

I do agree with you, and Anna's air position in general for all her jumps is wonderful...but with the quad Lutz in my opinion what Sasha tries to do when getting the solid outside edge is much much harder to jump straight up in a good position. She is similar to how Hanyu has trouble with his 4Lutz axis. Anna for obvious reasons doesn't have this problem.

 

[Skatesocs]

Full blade assisted + prerrotated though...

A toe loop isn't "full blade assisted".

 

[Jontor]

I don't think its that no one noticed, its just Valieva is hyped as being this great artist but she has no connection on her face to the music, and it seems to be pretty common knowledge that Trusova only cares about jumping. I made the remark in the Test skates thread, at this point R&J reminds me of GOT, it's music to play in the background while she jumps, she's not skating to the music. But it is only test skates and test skates after a very odd off-season, perhaps her focus on choreography will improve I'm not exactly holding my breath on it because we know she is going to add more quads.



Yes, for me at least I'm not going to jump on the hype train of Trusova till we see what she does in competition; she was fine in practice last season doing 4-5 quads but at competition time she had problems. Perhaps she should have gone to Mishin, who doesn't seem to care much about his ladies program content just skate back and forth doing jumps no fussing with choreography just wave your hands around a few times.

Adding more quads. That was the problem last season. The thing is that with the fourth quad, she has to take out a 3F and that's not worth it. If she falls on one of her quads she scores less than if she had gone for the more safer 3F instead.

I hope she keeps this 3 quad layout, but knowing Sasha, she will probably add more quads later. And that is unfortunate.

The thing is though, compared to Anna, who also had 3 quads last season, and more difficult ones, she needs something more.
I think Sasha should focus on getting the 3A. That would be a HUGE advantage combined with her quads. So a 3 quad program with a 3A would make her unbeatable.

 

[NadezhdaNadya]

There are so many hate comments written in Russian about Alyona. And there are even two Russian youtube channels that post hate videos about her regularly (Can I write their names here?). It is even worse than Evgenia's situation. :/

 

[vesperalvioletta]

There are so many hate comments written in Russian about Alyona. And there are even two Russian youtube channels that post hate videos about her regularly (Can I write their names here?). It is even worse than Evgenia's situation. :/

That makes me so sad. I don't understand why people feel the need to be so cruel to these girls.

 

[colormyworld240]

I agree it is a problem. But, I think it is a fixable one. Correcting edges, and prerotation is difficult but correcting the axis on a jump is completely possible. The most recent example I can think of is Rika (I know she isn't a Russian lady, sorry). She used to get a weird axis on her loops and her axels, but she has essentially completely fixed this problem. As a result her 3A success rate highly increased this year, and her loop is so much better. I believe Valieva can fix this issue. If she does, her 4T will be close to perfect. I think the bigger issues for Valieva might be her lutzes and flips. Her technique is quite strange. I hope it doesn't hurt her later.

For Kamila, her 3Lz has improved greatly in terms of the axis. Prior to last season, she always had a huge tilt on the 3Lz. Unlike the 4T where the axis tilts about halfway through the jump, her 3Lz always started off on a huge lean. I don't know if you watched her before, but it was a big reason she could not skate a clean program prior to her international debut. It's gotten much straighter last season, though. I think it'll be harder to fix for the 4T as it requires much more height (her 4T is even bigger than Sasha's, the biggest ladies' jump, isn't it?) and the extra rotation probably makes it more difficult to control her body in the air. It starts off straight when she picks, but she loses control of the axis partway through which is an issue she doesn't have on her 3T so it has to do with the height and extra rotation. Maybe she needs to hold her core better? Someone like Mishin who specializes in jumping mechanics could give great advice.

 

[NadezhdaNadya]

That makes me so sad. I don't understand why people feel the need to be so cruel to these girls.

She has very good technique, excellent skating skills and fluidity, but they hate her because she left Eteri. I am sure that If Anna or Kamila or Sofiya leave Eteri tomorrow they will be hated as well.
Some people think that Eteri team is like Hotel California - you can never leave!

 

[Scott512]

There are so many hate comments written in Russian about Alyona. And there are even two Russian youtube channels that post hate videos about her regularly (Can I write their names here?). It is even worse than Evgenia's situation. :/

I hope you are exxagerating. Who is doing this in the Russian media?

 

[NadezhdaNadya]

I hope you are exxagerating. Who is doing this in the Russian media?

There are mainly two youtube channels. Both of them are PRO Eteri.