2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[Baron Vladimir]

Valieva has a unique, distantly icy emotional signature, they should play to it. Bolero - which as a dreamlike, playful, emotive, erotic work, I do love, even if the composer kind of didn't - does nothing for her.

But you see Bolero is not (only) about that. It is about social depression, according to what Mathman and Ravel said. So maybe it is totally the right piece to skate to it in these times exactly distant and cold like Kamila did.

 

[Skatesocs]

I believe that Ravel himself wrote the music to represent the soulless droning on of (then) modern factories and to lament the sterility of the industrial revolution?

It's notable in the theme. It is said however that Maurice Bejart instead chose to choreograph the dance to emphasize eroticism and obsession. And some say that the repetitive theme is reminiscent of rock music.

I find the discussion here funny. Authorial intent and personal interpretation shouldn't really matter when it comes to someone else presenting their own intent on a piece of music via movement. For me the question is "did it work?".

Valieva's program didn't really have much in it though.

 

[dunffvanstorn]

But you see Bolero is not (only) about that. It is about social depression, according to what Mathman and Ravel said. So maybe it is totally the right piece to skate to it in these times exactly distant and cold like Kamila did.

You can interpret social depression with distant/cold expression.

However, what Kamila did was her “competition-nervous” face, which had nothing to do with her movements.

The face has to follow the type of movement the body is doing, no matter what the interpretation of the song is.

And I really doubt Daniil and Eteri went that deep with their thought process on how to interpret Bolero, they probably just watched this video:


https://youtu.be/m5CFJlzlGKM

Which is not about social depression.

 

[Mathman]

Cool:thumbsup: But maybe what Ravel thought is not the same how i personaly feel while i'm listening to it.

So true. Sometimes the artist is the least eequipt to interpret his own work. (The so-called "intentional fallacy" -- I intended to write a piece that represented thus and so and to evoke this or that mood (but the actual music turned out quite different from my intention).

Valieva has a unique, distantly icy emotional signature, they should play to it.

Then again, she's 14. Does a 14-year-old have an "emotional signature," or is she just concentrating hard on landing her triple flip?

 

[Skatesocs]

^4T

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Valieva's program didn't really have much in it though.

I agree with that. I dont think the choreo of the programme is fully done yet. But if i am Eteri i would add more of the same movements throughout the programme, and that would be it. Because for me, that is what Bolero is about. Repetetive monotony.

 

[TallyT]

So true. Sometimes the artist is the least eequipt to interpret his own work. (The so-called "intentional fallacy" -- I intended to write a piece that represented thus and so and to evoke this or that mood (but the actual music turned out quite different from my intention).

{nod} I think it was the writer Asimov who, when he sat in on a lecture on one of his works and later told the professor "that isn't what it's about!" got - and accepted - the paraphrased reply "just because you wrote it, why do you think you know anything about it?"

Then again, she's 14. Does a 14-year-old have an "emotional signature," or is she just concentrating hard on landing her triple flip?

Maybe, but we see pretty much all of the kids doing that in their quite different ways The sweet earnestness of the very young is one of the joys of watching the junior comps.

 

[NadezhdaNadya]

{nod} I think it was the writer Asimov who, when he sat in on a lecture on one of his works and later told the professor "that isn't what it's about!" got - and accepted - the paraphrased reply "just because you wrote it, why do you think you know anything about it?"

Ahahaha. I love this.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

You can interpret social depression with distant/cold expression.

However, what Kamila did was her “competition-nervous” face, which had nothing to do with her movements.

The face has to follow the type of movement the body is doing, no matter what the interpretation of the song is.

And I really doubt Daniil and Eteri went that deep with their thought process on how to interpret Bolero, they probably just watched this video:


https://youtu.be/m5CFJlzlGKM

Which is not about social depression.

About what it is than? I see a guy staying in one place, doesnt use his legs and doing repetetive movements with his hands. And i see sexuality, but the one which is closed inside and can't be socially express.

 

[Mathman]

The sweet earnestness of the very young is one of the joys of watching the junior comps.

Agree. I do love a program whose choreographic theme is. "Me skating!"

 

[dunffvanstorn]

About what is than? I see a guy staying in one place, doesnt use his legs and doing repetetive movements with his hands.

That choreography is out if this world. It’s not always the same movement. He uses his entire soul, his entire body, all his muscles for those movements. The arms have to be strong to do what he’s doing. You probably didn’t watch all of it. This interpretation is carnal, brutal, vivacious, desperate, anguishing, all in one. It’s marvelous.

When I had Bolero in Ballet classes, it was just for exercises and it was BORING. But I was too young to understand Bolero.

One of the main aspects of it is the beat, the rhythm. That’s why I like Béjart’s choreography to it, the feet are always working with the beat, while the arms are the melody. It’s so amazing.

And the biggest problem of Kamila’s Bolero is the lack rhythm in the choreo. We have to see in her movements that beat, that very marked beat/compass. She doesn’t use its rhythm. Her hands are also an effort to be inspired by Béjart’s, but they are not strong/energetic enough. She’s too soft. That’s why the choreo doesn’t work.

However, I don’t think people in skating will tell the difference between what is skating to the beat and what is skating to anything. The blame is not on Kamila, it’s on Eteri and Daniil for having given her such a complex piece of music to skate to. That’s it.

 

[PaulE]

Human nature overrides the formalism of logical dialectic. Since we are regular human beings and not Stoic Philosophers of Classical Greece, we are not too much interested in the rules of logical argumentation.

topic: Sorry to go off topic but this just reminded me of my favorite Monty Python argument: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpAvcGcEc0k.

 

[silveruskate]

I was going to make the same point with the music, since it has so many notes and rhythms... places to perform. It becomes obvious when you keep letting these moments go and don't hit the notes, so it looks out of sync with the music. But Kamila has time and I'm sure she'll get way better, this is only test skates. If she could already do it perfectly then by the Olympics the fire would have gone.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

That choreography is out if this world. It’s not always the same movement. He uses his entire soul, his entire body, all his muscles for those movements. The arms have to be strong to do what he’s doing. You probably didn’t watch all of it. This interpretation is carnal, brutal, vivacious, desperate, anguishing, all in one. It’s marvelous.

When I had Bolero in Ballet classes, it was just for exercises and it was BORING. But I was too young to understand Bolero.

One of the main aspects of it is the beat, the rhythm. That’s why I like Béjart’s choreography to it, the feet are always working with the beat, while the arms are the melody. It’s so amazing.

And the biggest problem of Kamila’s Bolero is the lack rhythm in the choreo. We have to see in her movements that beat, that very marked beat/compass. She doesn’t use its rhythm. Her hands are also an effort to be inspired by Béjart’s, but they are not strong/energetic enough. She’s too soft. That’s why the choreo doesn’t work.

However, I don’t think people in skating will tell the difference between what is skating to the beat and what is skating to anything. The blame is not on Kamila, it’s on Eteri and Daniil for having given her such a complex piece of music to skate to. That’s it.

Oh, i like the interpretation... and i doubt Eteri thinks Kamila can replicate that.. But Bolero is a very easy rhythm to skate to. Thats why people dance to it in a young age, as you did. There is nothing hard and complex in dancing/ skating to the rhythm of Bolero, comparing to the other modern pieces of music. What is hard with Bolero is not to make it boring, but my strategy would be to make it even more boring than it is, to get better the point of being bored

 

[Mathman]

That choreography is out if this world....

But then again, it is quite out of the question for a competitive figure skater, whether Torvill and Dean, Carolina Kostner or anyone else, to attempt anything of such startling originality and depth. The skater would just end up looking bizarre and foolish, like ... what???

We are putting too great a burden on amateur ice skaters and skating choreographer alike. To me, the job of a choreographer for a competitive figure skating program is to take inventory of what elements a skater can do and then to string them together with some in-between movement that is reasonably graceful and not too jarring against the background of the music.

I guess I am easy to please.

 

[dunffvanstorn]

But then again, it is quite out of the question for a competitive figure skater, whether Torvill and Dean, Carolina Kostner or anyone else, to attempt anything of such startling originality and depth. The skater would just end up looking bizarre and foolish, like ... what???

We are putting too great a burden on amateur ice skaters and skating choreographer alike. To me, the job of a choreographer for a competitive figure skating program is to take inventory of what elements a skater can do and then to string them together with some in-between movement that is reasonably graceful and not too jarring against the background of the music.

I guess I am easy to please.

While I agree we shouldn’t expect that type of choreography and genius coming from figure skating, we also can’t simply satisfy ourselves with “movements that fill the space between elements”...

Good skating choreographers know what to do. And I think phrasing is teachable, it just isn’t taught enough or considered a priority to skaters. I don’t know, maybe I’m just too strict, in a sense that I expect too much. Afterall, these are athletes, not professional dancers. But then I think that there are skaters who have done a good job on listening to the music and having good choreography. I don’t know.

 

[dunffvanstorn]

But then again, it is quite out of the question for a competitive figure skater, whether Torvill and Dean, Carolina Kostner or anyone else, to attempt anything of such startling originality and depth. The skater would just end up looking bizarre and foolish, like ... what???

We are putting too great a burden on amateur ice skaters and skating choreographer alike. To me, the job of a choreographer for a competitive figure skating program is to take inventory of what elements a skater can do and then to string them together with some in-between movement that is reasonably graceful and not too jarring against the background of the music.

I guess I am easy to please.

I’ve just remembered that I wouldn’t “not” expect it from Papadakis and Cizeron, though. They are called “pretentious” for a reason. Although they might wanna play safer at Olympics season, their free dance last season was quite original in my opinion.

 

[Scott512]

One thing I'm sure of is that if it had become known that during these test skates, an Eteri skater:

a) was allowed to skate with a fever in the middle of the freaking covid pandemic.
b) had a super messy skate like Medvedeva, most likely because of an old injury while also looking unusually skinny and still, was allowed to skate here.
c) skated a short program with an injury and then was praised by her coach for sucking it up and skating anyway.

Sure, we saw a few critical opinions about this here and in the Test Skates thread, but definitely not the outrage it would have caused if it was an Eteri skater and I didn't see a single person blaming the coach or posting long speeches about how irresponsible and abusive Mishin, TAT, Brian or Plushenko are.

Evgenia has skated exhibition skates without any jumps and they are beautiful, 2019 Worlds exhibition to Experience is one of my favorites. Really pull a Kostner, and water down the jumps that are easy to do and skate like an exhibition.

that's a pretty good idea. I just think the FED should not be putting skaters at risk pushing too hard when they're not in top shape because of the pandemic.

 

[Skatesocs]

^haha I love that you ignored all the artistry nonsense and cut straight to what matters.

 

[Amei]

So you think that RusFed won't save her?

If the Fed is going to do something shady to save a skater why do it for a skater that's struggling to stay healthy even with extended breaks, and has struggled to have clean competitions for the last 2 years and is technically deficient to what's competitive on the World circuit?

She was on break for months with no skating this offseason so her back had time to rest and heal, but she managed in the few months between starting training and test skates to do something to re-injure it or exacerbate it. But the argument is now being made that she should get an exemption to Nationals and that magically with roughly 3 more months of rest/rehabbing that her back will be fine and won't get reinjured when she starts training again, that she'll also magically be able to get up to speed in those 3 months and be able to skate and beat skaters that have higher technical difficulty than her and will be making those elements more consistent over the time she's resting/rehabbing?