The "wrong edge" call in JGP events

[antmanb]

Of course there are always 2 exceptions to the rule but no more. :yes:

Did you miss the inclusion of Mao making 3?

Last time i checked a proclamation from a skating fan does not a rule make, so no exceptions needed, merely one sweeping statement followed by three examplles of why the sweeping statement is flawed.

Ant

 

[Mathman]

What is the definition of the Lutz jump, anyway?

There seems to be quite a bit of sentiment that if your jump does not satisfy the definition of a Lutz jump then it is not a Lutz jump, pure and simple. What could be more clear than that!

As far as I can tell, the official definition of the Lutz jump is this:

“A Lutz jump is a toepick assisted jump with an entrance from a back outside edge and landing on the back outside edge of the opposite foot.”

Is this right?

So in other words, if a skater has the correct take-off edge but lands on the wrong edge, on a flat, on the wrong foot, on two feet, or on his bottom, then, by definition, he hasn’t done a Lutz jump.

In fact, he hasn’t done any of the ISU listed jumps, so that’s 0 credit.

Yes?

 

[Mathman]

Let's hear it for the boys!

About men versus ladies, I might be wrong about this, but here is my opinion anyway. Certainly there are many ladies of present and past that could take off from the correct edge and do a lovely double or triple Lutz jump.

However (reserving the right to be wrong), it seems to me that they tend to come in on a straighter line than men typically do, especially at the end of the approach, which somewhat mitigates the effect, even when they manage a secure outside edge all the way to take-off.

When the top men do it, to me it seems like they have a tighter clockwise arc and a more pronounced lean right up to the second of launch, so that they seem to explode into the air in a way that violates the laws of physics (conservation of angular momentum, for instance, LOL).

If you blink it looks like a miracle that one instant they are gliding backwards on a clockwise circular arc without a care in the world, then suddenly, with a pick of the toe and a swing of the arms they are hurtling through the air spinning like a top in the other direction.

(The only thing better is Ilia Kulik doing a triple Axel.)

 

[feraina]

“A Lutz jump is a toepick assisted jump with an entrance from a back outside edge and landing on the back outside edge of the opposite foot.”

That brings up a good point. I don't understand this repeated obsessive discussion of flutz & lip. The landing edge is just as important, and yet we rarely discuss that.

So in other words, if a skater has the correct take-off edge but lands on the wrong edge, on a flat, on the wrong foot, on two feet, or on his bottom, then, by definition, he hasn’t done a Lutz jump.

It may not be written in the rules, but there are standard ways of entry into each of the jumps. So a flip is usually from a straight-line entry, left (if clockwise rotator) outside 3-turn into take-off, placed at one end of the rink. The lutz is usually done on a wide, shallow left (if clockwise rotator) outside edge, and the jump placed in a corner of the rink (although recently, a straight-line entry has also become apparently popular in the U.S.). Thus you can identify all the jumps, and the technical callers know what jump the skater intended even if he/she changes his/her mind in the program, and knows when to apply the zayak rule, and when the flutz/lip rule.

When you're doing the jumps, the whole process of setting up the entry, not just the edge itself, defines the dynamics of the take-off and the jump. So if someone goes through the whole set-up for a lutz, but then ends up taking off from a slightly inside edge, that jump won't feel like a flip. And the wide outside edge makes the jump more difficult than a real flip, because you don't have the benefit of the 3-turn immediately before the take-off to generate the rotation.

All skaters make an effort to learn the lutz properly. Nobody is taught to think well, if I can't land the real thing, then I should switch over to the inside edge the last moment, and that makes the jump easier. Nobody is active "cheating", taking off from the outside edge is just really hard when you're supposed to be rotating the other way as soon as you get into the air, especially when you're trying to get 3 revolutions in. It's like some people can't get their jumps higher, or rotated faster, or the landing smoother with more flow -- doesn't mean they're cheating or they're not trying!

 

[gkelly]

Heyday of the women's triple lutz:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2H6PfFr59M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyN89VbDfa8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVZ_FfoZz40

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tX4sRDcCYOI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0EguD0USOY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCRaoNfU0r8

 

[blue dog]

I think that you need to go back to YouTube and find yourself some Janet Lynn

ITA. Not to mention, some of the best triple lutzes have been done by women. Tanja Szewczenko, Vika Volchkova, Maria Butyrskaya, and Tonya Harding have had lutzes that were better than even Elvis Stojko's. (Tanja's was especially high and beautiful).

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Did you miss the inclusion of Mao making 3?

Last time i checked a proclamation from a skating fan does not a rule make, so no exceptions needed, merely one sweeping statement followed by three examplles of why the sweeping statement is flawed.

Ant

Ye gods a flawed statement on the internet. Who'da thunk it?

I always bow to you, your highness.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

ITA. Not to mention, some of the best triple lutzes have been done by women. Tanja Szewczenko, Vika Volchkova, Maria Butyrskaya, and Tonya Harding have had lutzes that were better than even Elvis Stojko's. (Tanja's was especially high and beautiful).

But they are preKwan. Many fans start skating when Kwan did.

Joe

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

No, the ladies a re limited to 7 jumping passes (which there are in my example) the only limit on the number of triple jumps is the zayak rule - you can only repeat a maximum of two triples provided that one of the attempts is in combination or sequence. If a female skater can do all 6 triples, then proivded she completes one 3/3 then she will have enough jumping passes left to repeat two of those triples giving her an 8 triple program.

Ant

Ant - A learning lesson for me: 8 jumping passes:

Axel; Lutz; Flip; Toe loop; Loop; Salchow = 6 passes for the ladies.

1 combo: 3Ltz/3toe loop = 8.

and that's it. Another combo of two triples would be illegal.

However, a female skater could leave out the problematic loop jump and tack it onto a combo making it a 3combo which would still give the skater 8 passes.

No way can she do 9 legal passes. Am I correct?

Joe

 

[Kypma]

I think ladies are allowed 7 jumping passes, of which 3 may be jump combinations, and one of those 3 combinations can be a 3-jump one. You combo is just one jumping pass, consisting of a combination of 2 jumps.

Kypma

 

[gio]

from the outside edge = Lutz
from the inside edge = Flip

The judging is ridiculous! And it doesn't apply just on the flutz problem, what about skaters who don't do any steps before the solo jump in the SP, but get no penality for this? What about +GOE given to two-footed jumps? Or Level4 spins with ugly positions and travelled all around? Or the peeing dog spiral who magically up the level of the spiral? Or franzy and sloppy step sequences? I can continue for pages and pages!
The fact is: the judging isn't serious in Figure Skating! COP hasn't solved anything, but has just worsened the things!!!
Three years have passed from the abolition of the 6.0 system and for three years we are discussing the flutz/lip issue!! Has it been solved?? No, at all!!! They didn;t solve anything, nor the flutz/lip issue, nor the combo/sequence jumps issue, nor the underrotating issue, nor the spin travelling issue and so on and so forth...! Anything! We are discussing the same old things, who the ISU just can't solve. And if they decide to make a new rule, the judges just don't observe it and don't apply it.
This is just my opinion, but it is not serious nor fair to the skaters and to the public!!!

 

[mskater93]

A jump pass is either:
a) a solo jump
b) a jump combination of 2 jumps
c) a jump combination of 3 jumps
d) a jump sequence of 2 jumps
e) a jump sequence of 3 jumps

Max number of passes for ladies at the Senior level = 7
Max number of jumps for ladies at the Senior level (not including unlisted elements such as toe tap, mazurka, 1/2 loop, etc) = 11 as one pass may include 3 jumps and 2 passes may include 2 jumps

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I think ladies are allowed 7 jumping passes, of which 3 may be jump combinations, and one of those 3 combinations can be a 3-jump one. You combo is just one jumping pass, consisting of a combination of 2 jumps.

Kypma

Thank you Kypma

Do I have it right? Of the 6 solo jumps 3 of them may be in combination:

So we might have 3lutz by 3loop by 3 toe loop plus solo Axel; solo lutz; solo flip and solo salchow. Would that example work?

Joe

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

from the outside edge = Lutz
from the inside edge = Flip

The judging is ridiculous! And it doesn't apply just on the flutz problem, what about skaters who don't do any steps before the solo jump in the SP, but get no penality for this? What about +GOE given to two-footed jumps? Or Level4 spins with ugly positions and travelled all around? Or the peeing dog spiral who magically up the level of the spiral? Or franzy and sloppy step sequences? I can continue for pages and pages!
The fact is: the judging isn't serious in Figure Skating! COP hasn't solved anything, but has just worsened the things!!!
Three years have passed from the abolition of the 6.0 system and for three years we are discussing the flutz/lip issue!! Has it been solved?? No, at all!!! They didn;t solve anything, nor the flutz/lip issue, nor the combo/sequence jumps issue, nor the underrotating issue, nor the spin travelling issue and so on and so forth...! Anything! We are discussing the same old things, who the ISU just can't solve. And if they decide to make a new rule, the judges just don't observe it and don't apply it.
This is just my opinion, but it is not serious nor fair to the skaters and to the public!!!

Yet the judges never bring these things up at their smokers. And the dutiful fans will stick by the judges until they do.

 

[enlight78]

I believe that any jumps with wrong edge take off (flutz or lips) should get an automatic -2 GOE.
I also believe all obvious or noticably prerotated jumps should get an automatic -2 GOE.
If COP is about comparing skaters to an average standard. Maybe flutzes and lips should sllide under the radar since the average skater can't due both.

If COP is about comparing skaters to the highest standard. The flutzes and lips need to be hit hard with deductions.

 

[Nigel]

But seriously... ...IMHO we have to think this through, not just thump the Bible.

Suppose we say, inside edge = flip, period.

Here are three short programs.

Rachael: 3Lz+2T, 3Lo, 2A.

She has a terrible flutz, so she gets scored for 3F+2T (6.8 points), 3Lo (5 points), 2A (3.5 points).

Total: 15.3

Caroline: 3Lz+2T, 3F, 2A.

She also flutzes her Lutz, so she gets scored as 3F+2T (6.8 points), 3F (0 points), 2A (3.5 points).

Total: 10.3

Rachael and Caroline made the exact same mistake, an improper take-off egde on her Lutz attempt. But that same mistake cost Caroline 5.5 points, and only cost Rachael 0.5 points.

Is this really how we would like the scoring to go?

Personally, I think the penalty for Rachael's flutz should be greater than half a point.

Mirai: 3F+2T, 3Lo, 2A.

She does everything perfectly, so she gets 6.8 + 5.0 + 3.5 = 15.3.

Mirai scored exactly the same as Rachael, even though Rachael made a bad mistake and Mirai skated without error. Rachael made out like a bandit. She made a huge mistake but was not penalized for it, because -- well, there is no such jump as a flutz, so her jump was scored as a flip and she got full credit for it.

Flatt's -GOE was not for flutzing....(she has corrected her lutz this season)...the -GOE on the 3Lz-2T was for the wonkly toe which was supposed to be a 3T not a 2T and apparently she had a problem on the take off of the T and decided to do only a double instead of a triple, and it was a bit wonky.

 

[Mathman]

This was a made-up example of how the scoring might go if all flutzes were scored as flips. I didn't mean any actual programs. Sorry I didn't make that clear. I should have said, "suppose skater A did this," etc.

The point I was making is that if a flutz were scored as a flip, that could actually give the skater a higher score than if it were scored as a flawed Lutz, depending on the rest of the program.

 

[Mafke]

Well one problem with figure skating judging (perhaps the biggest right now) is judging down to the audience. Since 1973 a huge amount of effort has gone into creating competitions whose results will be understandable to tv viewers who know and care nothing about the mechanics of skating. Is it any surprise that the basic technique of most skaters has deteriorated?

Audiences like lots o' jumps (and pretty girls) and mostly don't care about things like edge control anymore than they cared which skater could do a better paragraph loop.

So the problem is we have the two following skaters:
Sallymae Crockpot - 5 textbook triples and nice deep edges on spirals, well-centered fast spins but no contortionist moves, lots of intricate edge-based footwork
Lulubelle Skillet has 7 triples (including a Sarah Hughes style flutz and a toe-axel), Plushenko style footwork, travels at least three feet in any spin she does and can not only hold her leg over her head but bend it so that she can tuck her heel under her chin and hold that position with no hands, and she's cute as! a! bug's! ear!!!!

Judging according to traditional criteria Sallymae beats Lulubelle and the casual tv viewer is upset cause "that other little gal shore is pretty!" and "she was a lot more fun to watch!"

So the ISU retools COP so that Lulubelle and her followers can win ....

 

[Ladskater]

Sound to me like some of the judges need to go back to skating school and learn the differences between the basic edges.

 

[antmanb]

There seems to be quite a bit of sentiment that if your jump does not satisfy the definition of a Lutz jump then it is not a Lutz jump, pure and simple. What could be more clear than that!

As far as I can tell, the official definition of the Lutz jump is this:

“A Lutz jump is a toepick assisted jump with an entrance from a back outside edge and landing on the back outside edge of the opposite foot.”

Is this right?

So in other words, if a skater has the correct take-off edge but lands on the wrong edge, on a flat, on the wrong foot, on two feet, or on his bottom, then, by definition, he hasn’t done a Lutz jump.

In fact, he hasn’t done any of the ISU listed jumps, so that’s 0 credit.

Yes?

I'm going from memory here but don't the GOE tables include landing on the wrong edge in the -GOE category too?

I agree with your definition MM, the trouble is that i don't think there are any official rules which set out the definition of each jump.

Ant