2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[Fried]

Is this a way to say that Tsurskaya for example is also an abuser because she went back to Tutberidze as a coach?

Your question lacks any logic.

 

[flanker]

Please no defamation! The exact opposite is the case! Not I have presented a personal point of view as fact, but you. I only pointed out that your final question "If they return there, it actually doesn't seem to be hell on earth" is erroneous and then I provides an example to prove it. I consciously chose an extreme example, because what works in extreme situations also works with ease in less extreme situations. I didn't say a single word about "positive statements about Titberidze".
Please just stick to the truth.

In the first place it was a joke, some people truly take everything too literally. But I disagree in how purposedly you use such "extreme examples", because if you would use them truly impartially, you would have to use them everytime when anyone makes a positive notion about someone. "He was a good coach", "I feel so well and happy there", all those are cases where, by your attitude, you should apply that as well. Which you don't, so, don't even try to prove something to me.

 

[plushyfan]

Ongoing invasion of Plushyboys and Plushygirls in this thread is slowly becoming unbearable.
Can't you guys at least wait for one senior gold medal from that school, before you take hits on the best fs coaching team in the world?

I can see here many Eterigirls and Eteriboys, too. Show me when we wrote Plushenko is the best coach? Seriously... But I said Eteri is the best coach right now, the most succesful thus the best coach. I just don't like her every action and method.

 

[yume]

Your question lacks any logic.

I think you're the last person who can talk about logic.

 

[Fried]

I think you're the last person who can talk about logic.

Everyone can think what he wants. Thoughts are free!

 

[Fluture]

Not to go into this, but you also cut out parts, conveniently taking it out of context.
Daria also said that she generally was really easily offended at that age, at anything, not just jokes, and hearing those jokes now she would just laugh at them.
Regarding food, it seems like she wasn’t really motivated to eat healthy herself, judging by her saying that “when the training was over, the fridge opened”, and that she was just plain tired of eating boiled chicken breast and wanted a little chocolate. I understand that completely. Especially at that age, restricting yourself to boring food like that would be very difficult.
Her mom seems pretty intense with diet, that part sounded kind of rough.
she also said that Eteri never took it well, when there were drastic weight changes, because she knows that can’t be right.
if you’re a pro athlete, I’d say quite often they have to stick to strict diet regimes. Like Rika, she measures and rations all her food every day. It will be a lot of sad boring meals, probably most of them not enjoyable at all, but that’s a price all of them have to pay.

You‘re right, I did. For me it didn‘t change the context a lot, though. If I have a child that‘s crying and afraid to go on the ice, constantly comparing herself and her body to others around her, I wouldn‘t say the kid‘s just “sensitive“. I might start to take note of the jokes I make. But I realise that this is probably a difference in personal attitude at what each of us would be willing to accept in the name of training. Elite sports is already mentally and physically hard - is there really still a need for this “tough love“ kind of approach? In my opinion, there isn‘t but I‘m not a coach either.

Her mother’s behavior scared me the most, in all honesty, thus my comment a while back about there seeming to be a lack of a support system for Daria at home.

As for the food part - I realise athletes need to have some sort of healthy diet plan. I‘m not and will never argue against that. The only thing I’d hope is for there to be nutritionists in charge of these young athletes instead of leaving it all to themselves and their parents. In my opinion, it‘s not Eteri‘s (or Daniil‘s or Sergei‘s) job to comment on these young girls‘ weight. Unless there‘s serious cause for worry - in which case they should have a talk with the parents and direct them to a professional for help. Everything else poses too many risks for a delicate topic like this.

 

[NadezhdaNadya]

Sorry, whilst that's partially true it's almost not true at all. Hammer toes usually appear during times of triples, and whilst you usually have prerotation in your body before then the level of prerotation and blade assist adjusts when you learn triples.

Furthermore, you can change your edge at the point of learning triples (of course correcting the double) - I went from a flutz to a decent outside edge when I landed triple Lutz...

I had to post this:

Triple Flip Evgenia Medvedeva

youtu.be

Medvedeva's flip technique is much better than Shcherbakova's, Valieva's and Trusova's.
Burning question: How much does she pre-rotate here? By how many degrees?

 

[yume]

Everyone can think what he wants. Thoughts are free!

Exactly. And yours are way too free.

 

[Skatesocs]

How much does she pre-rotate here? By how many degrees?

A half turn.

I do not see how that is "better technique" than anyone but the people who pre-rotate more than her.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

I had to post this:

Triple Flip Evgenia Medvedeva

youtu.be

Medvedeva's flip technique is much better than Shcherbakova's, Valieva's and Trusova's.
Burning question: How much does she pre-rotate here? By how many degrees?

I honestly don't care how its punished when it comes to Medvedeva vs Sherbakova, the differences between their two flips is almost negligible when it comes to the jump itself. I don't particularly like watching either of them jumping 3F, but I always look up to watch Sherbakova try 4F as its impressive -- I just want the best flips (Wakaba, Kihira) to be rewarded more.

and I'd beg to differ on Trusova's flip technique. Medvedeva and Trusova both do same prerotation, but Medvedeva uses so much more upper body and plunges her leg into the ice with much more force and a bent leg.

Valieva does a similar thing to Medvedeva, but the jump is neater - so I'd put it higher than her too.

 

[nussnacker]

You‘re right, I did. For me it didn‘t change the context a lot, though. If I have a child that‘s crying and afraid to go on the ice, constantly comparing herself and her body to others around her, I wouldn‘t say the kid‘s just “sensitive“. I might start to take note of the jokes I make. But I realise that this is probably a difference in personal attitude at what each of us would be willing to accept in the name of training. Elite sports is already mentally and physically hard - is there really still a need for this “tough love“ kind of approach? In my opinion, there isn‘t but I‘m not a coach either.

Her mother’s behavior scared me the most, in all honesty, thus my comment a while back about there seeming to be a lack of a support system for Daria at home.

As for the food part - I realise athletes need to have some sort of healthy diet plan. I‘m not and will never argue against that. The only thing I’d hope is for there to be nutritionists in charge of these young athletes instead of leaving it all to themselves and their parents.

maybe I’m just comparing it to myself, but I was a pretty intense teen. I remember snapping at my parents during some of our dinners, and running to my room to cry and be upset over some pretty innocent jokes about stupid things I said. So to me it looked like something of this sort, judging by her words, not necessarily something uber dramatic had to happen.

 

[Fried]

In the first place it was a joke, some people truly take everything too literally. But I disagree in how purposedly you use such "extreme examples", because if you would use them truly impartially, you would have to use them everytime when anyone makes a positive notion about someone. "He was a good coach", "I feel so well and happy there", all those are cases where, by your attitude, you should apply that as well. Which you don't, so, don't even try to prove something to me.

Of course, this applies to all sides, which is why I emphasized that it doesn't matter how things go in the TT. It was all about your conclusion. Show me where someone else wrote something similar and I will answer the same there. Promised. If it was a joke, of course, why are you arguing and not just saying "That wasn't meant seriously, that was a joke." But well, now you've said it. Then I laugh heartily at that conclusion and all is well.

 

[brakes]

I had to post this:

Triple Flip Evgenia Medvedeva

youtu.be

Medvedeva's flip technique is much better than Shcherbakova's, Valieva's and Trusova's.

No, it isn't.

Burning question: How much does she pre-rotate here? By how many degrees?

190-200 degrees.

 

[flanker]

maybe I’m just comparing it to myself, but I was a pretty intense teen. I remember snapping at my parents during some of our dinners, and running to my room to cry and be upset over some pretty innocent jokes about stupid things I said. So to me it looked like something of this sort, judging by her words, not necessarily something uber dramatic had to happen.

Exactly. It looked similar in one of the recent interviews of Shelepen, BTW.

Sensitivity to things, jokes etc. isn't constant for particular people and during the puberty it's like on a rollecoaster. And while all jokes should have limits it doesn't mean people are untouchable. IMO that's much more harmful to them in the long-term prospect to treat them like such.

 

[Fluture]

maybe I’m just comparing it to myself, but I was a pretty intense teen. I remember snapping at my parents during some of our dinners, and running to my room to cry and be upset over some pretty innocent jokes about stupid things I said. So to me it looked like something of this sort, judging by her words, not necessarily something uber dramatic had to happen.

Maybe. We do not know that. And my point was never that Eteri‘s camp is “living hell“ or anything of that sorts anyway. Just that it‘s tough and occasionally uses questionable methods (as, sadly, many figure skating coaches all around the world do) and parents should be aware of the potenial risks to their child‘s mental and physical health before they sign up for it.

 

[flanker]

Of course, this applies to all sides, which is why I emphasized that it doesn't matter how things go in the TT. It was all about your conclusion. Show me where someone else wrote something similar and I will answer the same there. Promised. If it was a joke, of course, why are you arguing and not just saying "That wasn't meant seriously, that was a joke." But well, now you've said it. Then I laugh heartily at that conclusion and all is well.

Oh, c'mon, aren't here many positive comments about many persons, memories in interviews, when someone makes positve allusions about somebody? Are you telling me you don't see them?

 

[Fried]

Exactly. And yours are way too free.

Well, love free thoughts as being trapped in one's thoughts.
Incidentally, there is no such thing as "too free". There is only free or trapped, nothing in between.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Exactly. And yours are way too free.

There's nothing "too" free. The mindset that people must agree with you to comment is outdated - provided you aren't actively discriminating against people for things that don't harm other people. I've been sitting on the fence for this entire ridiculous conversation which is meaningless - and yes it is meaningless - as we should be supporting the athletes not the coaches.

In fact, this comment you made has made me decide to "jump off the fence", and talk "free-er" (or in correct English "more freely, but that didn't ring as nicely):

For me, Mishin is the best Russian coach and seems the nicest. I don't know everything about him, but he is fair on his skaters and is relatively patient compared to some of the others. He doesn't swear at skaters, and he is relatively calm. He gives "good vibrations." I think Dudakov is very similar (I think he is a nice guy who teaches jumps whilst Eteri "Motivates" people. I know nothing of Davydov or Plushenkos measures, but I have heard some stories about how Yana Plushenko locked Sasha Plushenko into a cupboard and beat him so I wouldn't hold my breath if in a few years time Plushenko's school starts mistreating the skaters after they've had some success.

As long as people are rewarded for producing the 1 Olympic cycle prodigies ages 15-18 then inevitably this will take place. They will push to produce best results quick as possible, as in Russia you get nowhere if you don't have triples by age 9-10. It's not expected that these skaters will be competing for a long period of time - but for the coaches who have 3 or 4 youngsters lined up rearing to replace them its not a problem. These are skaters who have no clue of the physical cost that will incur. Sure, it would be worth it for anybody if they were guaranteed to one day go to big internationals, but for every Trusova you have literally hundreds of girls who don't make it, many will suffer permanent injury due to the current training processes. People are rewarded for the quads they produce, not the quads that will have longevity in competition.

Tuktamysheva has proven that adult girls can land quads, and if the age of senior was for example 17-18 than this would result in Dudakov etc adjusting the technique, taking time to work on the skating and building the strength before learning quads, and taking time to learn quads to ensure skater longevity. I'm not suggesting this should happen, just stating that this is what would happen if this happened. We'd see older people landing quads. It's definitely possible - take a look at any Tonya Harding or Midori Ito jump and you'd probably think it could be a quad. Alysa Liu and Sherbakova both jump a lot lower yet can get a "quad" out of it. It's just insane to wonder if there could be so many girls who destroyed themselves pushing the jumps at a young age who could have been able to do a quad if they took the time. But alas, this doesn't get rewarded so it doesn't happen. These girls are too young to really know the risks involved. Only their parents have any idea of the risks, and I don't know how well any parents explain the risks to the children - or if the children can really consent to them.

I hope to see this change, but I don't see it happening soon. At the very least, I've given the Tutberetzi fans and the Plushenko fans a mutual person to hate so it'll make a change from the back and forth stuff happening in this thread.

If saying all this makes me have to leave this thread due to everybody @ me, then so be it. If I'm a bad guy for caring about these young skaters who have to starve themselves to be able to have a competitive chance sometimes to the extent of an eating disorder(Julia Lipnitskya is just one example) then so be it.

Thank you for listening (reading), and have a nice day.

 

[silveruskate]

The weight-checking method I don't think is perfect since I don't know how it accounts for wanting to gain muscle for example, and where does it leave room for it if an athlete wants to? But reading the other interview from Panenkova, she also says Eteri doesn't expect or want you to lose 1kg in a day. If -100/-200g is ideal then that sounds more like 1 week or 10 days which is possible and not unhealthy.

However, when the jumps taught at Sambo require this kind of weight control, it isn't their fault. The skaters + parents already know about it, and clearly the method works. There are other great coaches and schools in Russia to go to if you don't want to. As Panenkova said, skaters with fast metabolisms don't suffer.

 

[Lunalovesskating]

Exactly. And yours are way too free.

Your discourse reminded me of this