How Important is the Spiral Sequence?

[Joesitz (RIP)]

At one point in the Ladies' programmes, they will execute a series of varied spirals. To me, it disrupts the program. I would prefer to see these spirals, if they contribute anything at all to the technical part of the program to be spread out as moves in the field.

Other than giving another example of 'basics' do you see the Spiral Sequence as important as jumps and spins?

Joe

 

[Ptichka]

I think the problem with spirals is that they are only beautiful when they're really well done. Think of Kwan's or Cohen's spiral, or Arakawa's Ina Bauer - these are not just the "basics", those are incredibly beautiful moves that should absolutely be in their own category. However, some of the (even top ranked) skaters' spirals do look like they should take up way less time, and should belong to the "moves in the field".

 

[Kwanford Wife]

Since the spiral is my favorite move in skating, I do think they should be seen on the same level as spins & jumps. Mainly because, with the notable exception of Irina (not much height or stretch, but that edge is a thing of beatuy!), a well executed spiral seperates the women from the girls...

Ptichka gave an excellent reasoning that I'd like to piggyback onto: to work, the sprial needs to be awe-inspiring AND well placed in the program... too many skaters have the spiral placed based on timing of the skating vs. in relation to the music, which, in my not so humble opinion, takes away from the overall affect of the skill... but then, that's true of a lot of things, espcially spins.

 

[Mafke]

My short history of the spiral sequence.

From about 1989 (when introduced as a required element in the SP) until around 1995 the spiral sequence was usually a big snore as skaters clearly didn't have much idea about how to construct the sequence into anything very interesting. IIRC the original requirement was something like 'footwork sequence incorporating spiral positions'.

From around 1996-2002 spiral sequences were often interesting. But beginning in the early 2000's fans and commenters got the horrible idea that a requirement of the spiral sequence was that the free leg be almost vertical (so Slutskaya's wonderful steady edges got ripped by commentators over Cohen's skittery edgeless splits).

Then CoP happened and they became unbearable again as the absurd micro-management of CoP (when in doubt specify another change of position!) made the spirals of the 2005-06 season hideous beyond belief.

Now they're well enough established that they're not going away and CoP doesn't know what to do with them and skaters don't and they're back to being a big bore.

If I had my way I'd drop the requirement in favor of a second footwork sequence with selected moves in the field that were about edge control.

Finally, I saw an old clip of Carol Heiss where she does a very basic spiral (straight leg not much higher than her hip) and it's more beautiful than most skaters now are doing, a true balance move.

 

[blue dog]

I'm with Joe--they should be well-placed, and split apart if the music calls for it, or all in one big sequence, again, if the music calls for it (I say the same for footwork--no more fast straightline footwork to SLOW music. WTF?)

My favourite side effect of the spiral sequence nowadays is the look of dread on most skaters as they approach this move. They seem to almost dread it more than the triple lutz! Watch Miki Ando's spiral sequence during her worlds LP--her face seemed either angry, afraid, or...

Same with Susanna Poykio--and most of the women. They don't seem to know what to do not only with their free leg, but with their faces during this element.

 

[Tonichelle]

I think the problem with spirals is that they are only beautiful when they're really well done. Think of Kwan's or Cohen's spiral, or Arakawa's Ina Bauer - these are not just the "basics", those are incredibly beautiful moves that should absolutely be in their own category. However, some of the (even top ranked) skaters' spirals do look like they should take up way less time, and should belong to the "moves in the field".

I agree that as much as I love the spiral some skaters are better looking in certain spiral position than others... unfortunately the more difficult spirals look very BAD on most skaters... which is my main pet peeve. I love spiral sections in a program

 

[gkelly]

Spiral sequence has been required in the ladies short program for almost 20 years already, so I don't have a problem with leaving it there. If anything, I'd like to see one of the men's SP step sequences changed for spiral or field moves sequence.

In my ideal version of the long program well-balanced program rules, skaters of both sexes could do up to three of the following kinds of sequences:

step sequence (as currently defined, although I have some tinkering I would do with the level requirements if it were up to me)

spiral sequence (ditto)

field moves sequence (requires at least two of the following: spread eagle, Ina Bauer, shoot-the-duck/hydroblade -- that could be two of the same kind of element if performed on different edges/in different directions -- plus a third position that could be one of the above or a spiral or lunge, with level features for various difficult variations)

small-jump sequence (sequence of jumps of 1.5 or fewer rotations, any takeoffs and landings allowed, which may be connected with steps and turns; features for certain kinds of combinations, jumping both directions, special air positions such as splits, etc.)

This year's US requirements for novice long programs allow both men and ladies to choose either a spiral sequence or a step sequence. Some novice men who can do decent spirals choose that option -- it's a lot easier to achieve level 3 or 4 in a spiral sequence than a step sequence.

 

[cassieandcheetah]

I agree that as much as I love the spiral some skaters are better looking in certain spiral position than others... unfortunately the more difficult spirals look very BAD on most skaters... which is my main pet peeve. I love spiral sections in a program

Yeah...some positions seem more awkward and more unncessarily revealing than others...I agree with Dick Button that it's not so cool to see a skater's "fanny" featured so prominently during these....

 

[Mafke]

Yeah...some positions seem more awkward and more unncessarily revealing than others...I agree with Dick Button that it's not so cool to see a skater's "fanny" featured so prominently during these....

Be careful! This is an international forum and 'fanny' means something very different to British people than it does to Americans....

 

[rain]

At one point in the Ladies' programmes, they will execute a series of varied spirals. To me, it disrupts the program. I would prefer to see these spirals, if they contribute anything at all to the technical part of the program to be spread out as moves in the field.

All of the spiral sequences of this past season looked painfully the same.
Therefore I would support the idea of allowing skaters to break up the spiral sequence, but keep the requirement of doing a certain number of spiral positions throughout the program. Let it be up to the skater and choreographer to decide if they should be done all at once or interspersed throughout the program.
On a side note, I'd love to see more skaters include a falling leaf move. Can it ever be stunning.

 

[cassieandcheetah]

Be careful! This is an international forum and 'fanny' means something very different to British people than it does to Americans....

Oh no! I'm so sorry. I swear I had no idea. It's a quote straight from Dick Button, and I live in the US...so I just had no idea!

 

[feraina]

Oh no! I'm so sorry. I swear I had no idea. It's a quote straight from Dick Button, and I live in the US...so I just had no idea!

Oh, this is funny! I lived in Britain for a number of years, and just got back to the US two years ago. I was wondering how Dick Button could be so vulgar on national TV, and why this comment on spirals was being repeated acrossing skating forums, until Mafke reminded me that Americans use "fanny" differently.

I think I got confused because I can see how some of the spirals really do feature the British "fanny" rather prominently (even though personally I love the spiral sequence, and consider it one of the highlights when well done), but now I think about it, which spiral features the American "fanny" prominent??

 

[blue dog]

I think I got confused because I can see how some of the spirals really do feature the British "fanny" rather prominently (even though personally I love the spiral sequence, and consider it one of the highlights when well done), but now I think about it, which spiral features the American "fanny" prominent??

The back inside edge doggie-pee spiral features both, depending on the skater. Some skaters, to get "greater" height on their free leg, bend their skating leg, which raises their rump. Others (a-la Slutskaya) can't get the height, so it features the other fanny.

 

[GoldMedalist]

The back inside edge doggie-pee spiral features both

How do you do a fan spiral on an inside edge? :scratch:

But, no worries, because that move as been abolished anyway.

 

[Kypma]

I think ladies hould be allowed to choose between step and spiral sequences, and men too, if they feel they're better at spirals (Craig Buntin's are really nice... and Shawn Sawyer (sp?) could probably do good ones too). Spirals can be things of beauty when well placed, and I think of Sasha, who would always place them after a huge crescendo and build up in the music, it really made the spiral sequence stand out, and as it was one of her best elements, it was really nice. Skaters just have to know how to interpret the music... and I agree that they should be allowed to place them in different places in the program, albeit with the same requirements (except the 50+% of the time in spiral position part!)

Kypma

 

[Tinymavy15]

To me a well done spiral sequence is the height of the program. It always shines, even if the skaters jumps are not "on". But I think that the spiral could be used better if the skaters coudl but one here, one there through the program. Before COP, skaters needed a spiral sequnece in the short. Now they need it in both programs. I think that in the freeskate spirals should be part of the interpration. This would lessen the amount of ugly spirals, because the not-so flexable skaters woudl elect to do somthing else, like a loevly spread eagle instead of trying to get thier foot over thier head.

 

[gkelly]

I agree.

I don't see how it would be possible to give credit for a "spiral sequence" if different spirals are performed at different points in the program. They would just be transition moves, and a number of ladies do include extra spirals as transitions as well their official spiral sequences.

I'd rather give all the ladies (and men) the OPTION to include a spiral sequence in the long program as an element, or to include different kinds of sequences if they're better at those and/or they fit the music or program theme better, and also continue to encourage them to include spirals as transitions.

And the same for steps and spread eagles/Ina Bauers, etc.

I suppose another option would be to give point values to solo spirals, solo spread eagles, etc., IF they meet certain criteria, such as covering more than half the ice surface on their own. Of course the point value would be lower for one spiral than for a whole sequence, but the GOE might be higher for a skater who can do one really spectacular position on a particular edge and any others pale in comparison.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

There are three spirals I enjoy: The forward change edge either way; the Y spiral when the hands let go; and the Charlotte backwards or forwards. I don't particularly like seeing them consecutively unless there is distinct music to make me sit up and appreciate them - not just mellow background music, but different rhythyms. Probably why I really do not like spirals all bunched up. Individually they can say something to the viewer besides flexibility.

Joe

 

[kandidy]

How does the GOE give criteria for each level ?
What is the requirement to reach level four spiral ?

 

[gkelly]

How does the GOE give criteria for each level ?
What is the requirement to reach level four spiral ?

The most recent rules you'll find in ISU communication no. 1445, which you can download here:
http://www.isu.org/vsite/vnavsite/page/directory/0,10853,4844-130127-131435-nav-list,00.html

This includes the current list of features to achieve levels 2-4, some further descriptions/definitions pertaining to spiral sequences, and a list of GOE reductions for certain kinds of errors or lacks in various elements, similar to the list of short program deductions in the old system.

What you won't find there is the description of how to judge the GOE in the first place before those specific reductions.

You can find a GOE chart from 2004 in communication no. 1284 here:

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vnavsite/page/directory/0,10853,4844-168506-185724-nav-list,00.html

That would be more useful for the positive than the negative GOEs.