2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[nussnacker]

I agree that it's super annoying that people seem to think that only Russian ladies or more specifically Eteri girls have flutzes and don't get called, because let's be real, everyone has flutzes that don't get called, but still: Zhenya magically getting ! calls when she usually flies by with +3 GOE? Pretty strange isn't it? I think most people are always criticizing Eteri skaters because they get the highest GOEs, but still that doesn't take away the fact that everyone gets a free pass a lot of the time. But then again, Mariah, Eunsoo, Satoko and co aren't getting world records with flawed jumps are they?

And again, I don't understand your argument about 100-200% increase. JUST BECAUSE YOU DO LESS LUTZES DOESN'T MEAN YOU DON'T FLUTZ. The flutz was well known since 2017 and again, why should judges be reliant on how fans know about the flutz instead of well, doing their job and calling out wrong edges when they see it on the ice?

all caps try reading what I wrote again maybe?
If you repeat something 3 times more than you usually do, "statistically" the probability of getting called increases. 1 mistake instead of 3 - the chances of being called are 3 times less.
You seem to be ignoring all logical explanations, while extensively asserting on 40%!!! and 70%!!! Want to do proper statistical analysis? she had less ISU competitions last season, like not being into GPF, Euros, Worlds - hence there's less data to even make comparative "statistics" on.

 

[flanker]

Top three skates today:

Liza Rerestovskaya:



Sofia Muravyova:



Maria Zakharova:

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

all caps try reading what I wrote again maybe?
If you repeat something 3 times more than you usually do, "statistically" the probability of getting called increases. 1 mistake instead of 3 - the chances of being called are 3 times less.

NO. She is always flutzing. It's not like she sometimes flutzes and sometimes has a correct edge. If this were like Alina circa 2018-19, yes, then I would agree with you, but no this is Zhenya. The probability shouldn't increase because no matter how many lutzes she does, they are always flutzes. Statistically yes the probability increases, but it should not be increasing because it should always be at 100%. What, do you expect that it goes to 101%?

 

[nussnacker]

NO. She is always flutzing. It's not like she sometimes flutzes and sometimes has a correct edge. If this were like Alina circa 2018-19, yes, then I would agree with you, but no this is Zhenya. The probability shouldn't increase because no matter how many lutzes she does, they are always flutzes. Statistically yes the probability increases, but it should not be increasing because it should always be at 100%. What, do you expect that it goes to 101%?

oh my...

 

[flanker]

It seems to me that the situation is very clear. If you have a well-known coach, then you are forgiven for your shortcomings in technique. The more famous a coach is, the more the shortcomings of his students are forgiven. This also includes the size of GOE and PCS. Who is the most famous coach in the women's singles FS? Eteri Tutberidze. Accordingly, it is most pronounced in her. The athlete leaves the famous coach - he loses the bonus of this coach. Nothing complicated. Why didn't anyone say this directly here? Are you shy?) This is not an attack on Eteri, it is just a summary of the discourse on the last pages here.

I wonder why Daria's components were so low then

What you say as a "revelation" is actually repeated here ad nauseam, despite people like nussnacker who reasonably and politely show the gaps in the logic.

 

[Mathman]

My biggest pet peeve with the ISU is they literally are so vague with their criteria. For example "good height and distance" for +GOE on jumps. Like what is good height and distance? What if someone literally just thinks that Berestovskaya or Miyahara have good height and distance, unironically too? They really should be giving actual criteria so the judging isn't so wack.

The other side of the coin is, that's what judges do, they offer their judgment. If there were no judgment calls to be made there would be no need for judges at all.

 

[kirauza343]

I do not understand how it’s still an argument whether or not Evgenia’s flutz has been called more often after leaving Eteri or how people still act like Eteri girls don’t often benefit from lenient judging. They’re not the only ones that get gifts but when Russian Fed can literally send a letter complaining about girls getting edge calls and then they get next to no edge calls the rest of the season while they win everything of course people are going to notice it. And the fact that they’re winning and setting new records means the judging benefits they get are going to be talked about more than someone like Mariah, Satoko, and Eunsoo (especially since the first two didn’t have a major international competition after their second Grand Prix events and Eunsoo isn’t even the number 1 Korean lady right now).

 

[Edwin]

Sof'ya Samodelkina well underway in adding difficulty: https://rsport.ria.ru/20201013/samodelkina-1579659926.html


MOSCOW, October 13 - RIA Novosti, Anatoly Samokhvalov. Russian figure skater Sof'ya Samodelkina is learning the quadruple Rittberger, the quadruple Salchow is already being practiced in her free program along with the triple Axel, the athlete's coach Sergey Davydov told RIA Novosti.
Thirteen-year-old Samodelkina took part in the August Test Skates of the Junior National team of Russia, in which she demonstrated an Axel with three and a half turns, but hasn't competed since.

“We are training, we learn another quadruple : Rittberger. I can't say that we are jumping it yet, but we are working on it. Whether we will show it at the next competition depends on how we proceed. There still is time. She will perform according to the plan in the last two stages of the Russian Cup. Underwhile we are working on a quadruple Salchow and a triple Axel in the free program. Sophia's condition, pah-pah-pah, is excellent,

Davydov told over the phone.

The final fourth and fifth stages of the Russian Cup will take place in Kazan (November 8-12) and Moscow (December 5-8), respectively.

 

[lopsilceci]

Yes, I appreciate Valieva. She is an incredibly talented young lady, but performance wise I feel nothing. She often looks stress during her programs, and it makes me feel stressed watching her.

Umm, where does she look stressed?
Also, for those who say she doesn't emote with her face... what?

 

[flanker]

Lol what even? That person was literally just asking for impressions by people who liked the program. That‘s a completely innocent request and could potentially create an interesting discussion! People have different tastes when it comes to art, it’s kind of fascinating to see the perspective of others at times. And yet you somehow manage to bring the “everyone hates Eteri“ argument into it?

As for Kamila‘s program, though I admit to not being a fan - I like the opening moves, they‘re very unusual and eye-catching in their difficulty. I also find the idea of her portraying a snake quite intriguing - she has the flexibility and almost contortionist like moves. I‘m just not sure why they‘d choose Bolero as a music as it doesn‘t have anything snake-like at all, imo. I also think they could have chosen a more subtle costume that still gets the idea across but isn‘t as over the top.

Not everyone, obviously, but particular people here can't be called impartial to the team's "production" in any case and all of what was written here e.g. on Kamila's program was predictable like day and night. That doesn't differ from what could have been read about Anna/Sasha/Aliona's programs last season, Alina's programs season before etc. Attitude forms an opinion with particular people and they will be always supercritical beyond any reasonable limit. Sometimes people should deserve the trust before asking particular questions, that it is honest interest and not just kind of screening or scrutinizing people with other opinion.

I should say there is some sad historical experience with such attitude for us. Like "what's your art about, where did you get this idea, who or what made you to think like that, how do you see XY, what would you tell us about him, what did you want to tell by this".

 

[Gabby30]

Didn't famous skater who is not Russian lady recently complete an academic thesis about the possible utility of applying machine learning to figure skating judging? I'm all for it, if it would squelch debate about bias in judging.

Who am I kidding?
Then who would we blame, and what would we have to complain about?

Technology makes mistakes too and can be manipulated easily

 

[Magill]

Didn't famous skater who is not Russian lady recently complete an academic thesis about the possible utility of applying machine learning to figure skating judging? I'm all for it, if it would squelch debate about bias in judging.

Who am I kidding?
Then who would we blame, and what would we have to complain about?

Then we'd all go Rage Against The Machine....

 

[MintGreen]

I wonder why Daria's components were so low then

Funny that you mentioned Daria. I can totally see that had the standings of Sasha and Kamila switched after the FS and had it been a close call between the 2nd and the 3rd, Daria would win over Sasha and claim the silver there. Instead, she lost to Kamila who had several major mistakes in FS by a very convenient 0.5 point.

And it's not like that Daria didn't receive a lenient call on her lutz.

 

[Edwin]

MOSCOW, October 13 - RIA Novosti, Anatoly Samokhvalov. The winner of the Moscow stage of the Russian Cup in the junior category Yelizaveta Berestovskaya performed two quadruple Toeloop jumps poorly in her free program, since these elements have not yet been fully developed, the figure skater's coach Sergey Davydov told RIA Novosti.

Twelve-year-old Berestovskaya on Tuesday won the second stage of the Russian Cup in junior competitions, collecting 202.42 points in the sum of both programs. In her free program, the skater performed a quadruple Toeloop with underrotation, but then fell on a double Toeloop, thereby disrupting the 4-2 cascade. A little later, she fell from a solo quadruple Toeloop.

She did both Toeloops poorly. In the morning (at training) she performed both to the music of her program. So they are not fully worked out, we will continue to work better and jump more. We need to finish it," Davydov told over the phone.

At the same time, the coach does not connect the failures in Berestovskaya's skating runs with the number of quads. “No, it’s not the first time (she jumps two quads in the program), we have put them on long ago,” said the coach. “There is still a lot of work, (Berestovskaya's) speed needs to be increased, the height of the jumps. She does everything OK in training but in competitions the jumps are a little squeezed. We are developing.

-----
From: https://rsport.ria.ru/20201013/berestovskaya-1579655451.html

 

[flanker]

Funny that you mentioned Daria. I can totally see that had the standings of Sasha and Kamila switched after the FS and had it been a close call between the 2nd and the 3rd, Daria would win over Sasha and claim the silver there. Instead, she lost to Kamila who had several major mistakes in FS by a very convenient 0.5 point.

Funny thing is that you are obviously strongly convinced there is "Eteri bonus". Like Stanislava's PCS was 68, Daria's 70, Sasha's 71 and Kamila's 72. IMO if Stasya's components were 68, than Daria's should've been 78 and Kamila's 76 to preserve the adequate distance.

 

[Edwin]

Konstantinova still enjoys the TAT bonus?

 

[NAOTMAA]

Where you stand in your country hierarchy and who your coach is matters just as much as how you skate and that's the truth. It has always been like that regardless of discipline. It's not exclusive to Russia either.

If Evgenia was suddenly getting calls against her when she was with Brian it was because her standing in the hierarchy was no longer the same. She was no longer the top Russian lady (no matter how much TAT and others love her) and the marks followed that. Satoko was the same. How many times were her tiny jumps not called just because she was then Japanese #1? Her jumps started getting called once Rika and Kaori passed her nationally.

And as for coaches the bigger the name with the longer the winning history the better. The more they can fight for you behind the scenes not just nationally but internationally as well. Why do you think the USFSA pushed Gracie Gold to Frank or Alysa Lui to Lee? Aleksandra took a risk going to a coach who has no strong coaching record and right now it shows. As time goes by that can change but right now no one should be shocked why a skater by Eteri gets better treatment then a skater by Plushkenko.

 

[Edwin]

Anyone in for a laugh: https://www.instagram.com/p/CGSg-2qo6mS/ ?

Read the comments ...

 

[Jontor]

The GOE for the Lutz who got a ! call you are speaking of was the following: 31312221 and if you look into ISU's rules, judges are supposed to subtract -1-3 from the GOE after an unclear ! edge call, if a judge gave +4 initially according to the criteria they are supposed to judge by (meaning height, landing, fits the music etc.), it will likely turn into a 3, 2 or 1 depending on how much the judge wants to subtract, he has a range of 3 points The tech panel did not give a full e call but a ! call, therefore it is not surprising the judges did not give the -3-4 lower GOE for a full edge call. I think going from 40% calls to 70% to 100% calls is pretty significant. And one Lutz that got two 3s on a ! call when most of the other called Lutzes during the season got negative GOE is pretty much nothing, especially when said Lutz was performed at a Challenger where judging is usually weird (weren't you guys just last season complaining about the bad judging at Challengers when it came to Anna and Sasha?)

Daria does 3 Lutzes in her programs (an upgrade from last season where she did 2 per competitions) despite a full inside edge Flutz yet she has not gotten any full e calls (she got !s at Junior Worlds, but that's it). Maiia mostly has a flat edge and sometimes switches to an inside edge on her Lutz and has 3 Lutzes in her programs, yet she does not receive edge calls. So where is the correlation that the more Flutzes = the more calls. Anna has mostly a flat edge (sometimes shallow inside) on her Lutz and does 5 Lutzes per competition (last season), yet does not get any calls (except that CoC moment last season where a judge dared to do that and we all know what happened afterwards, RusFed complained and suddenly all calls disappeared). Where are the constant edge calls on hers?
Polina did not receive any edge calls in the season before leaving Eteri and then she received 4 ! calls the next season, what is your supposed explanation for that?
Daria Panenkova also went from 2 ! calls ouf 9 jumps (22%) to to 5 ! calls out of 7 jumps (71.5%) in one season.

Love your stats, Luna. Very interesting. But I am not so sure what conclusions we can make of it? Let's take a look at Polina Tsurskaya!

When you are talking about Polina, it's the Flip right? (Because her Lutz is to die for!) It's interesting that she didn't do the 3F more often. Clearly she knew it was a weak jump for her.

Polina at NHK 2017:
No Flip in the short (I wonder why)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPzISbO2u6E - just one Flip, not the best of angles and no replay, but I'd give her the benefit of a doubt

Polina at Skate America 2017:
No Flip in the short
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMvGFAuQCew - just one flip, and it looks suspicious to me, unfortunately no replay of it. But it wasn't called.

Polina at Skate America 2018:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWN9-2weMPs - interestingly she puts in a 3F in the short, and I think it looks ok, but she got an '!'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YDWk0FOBos - just a 2F, again not the best angle but she got an '!', the replay don't reveal anything more so I would have given her the benefit of a doubt again.

Polina at Rostelecom 2018:
She took out the Flip in the short and re-inserted the Loop
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJcfMYSQpOw - just one flip, the judges gave her an '!' and I am surprised she didn't get an 'e'

When it comes to Polina though, overall you can clearly see that her overall skating had regressed a bit after she left Eteri. I don't know if she was just not fit or if it was those natural body changes girls are going through. But she had a terrible season (even worse than Sotskova and that says a lot), lots of falls, URs, popped jumps - it wasn't surprising she got fed up and quit, although it broke my heart. I loved Polina!!

When a skater suddenly regresses like this, the judges notices, and suddenly the Tech panel look closer in on all her jumps, that might have been a factor. So I don't think we can jump into conclusions that being with Eteri gives you a "call-free card". After all, Polina WAS a much better skater back then.

I suspect that it is the same pattern for Daria Panenkova, but I am off to see a friend, so I don't have time to check her out right now. But I am sure you guys will!

 

[Elana]

Sof'ya Samodelkina well underway in adding difficulty: https://rsport.ria.ru/20201013/samodelkina-1579659926.html


MOSCOW, October 13 - RIA Novosti, Anatoly Samokhvalov. Russian figure skater Sof'ya Samodelkina is learning the quadruple Rittberger, the quadruple Salchow is already being practiced in her free program along with the triple Axel, the athlete's coach Sergey Davydov told RIA Novosti.
Thirteen-year-old Samodelkina took part in the August Test Skates of the Junior National team of Russia, in which she demonstrated an Axel with three and a half turns, but hasn't competed since.


Davydov told over the phone.

The final fourth and fifth stages of the Russian Cup will take place in Kazan (November 8-12) and Moscow (December 5-8), respectively.

I'm very disappointed for her that the JGP isn't on this year. She would've been the standout. Now she will be debuting alongside Akatyeva and Zhilina, who are arguably better, if not all around equal. She kind of lost that opportunity to shine on her own and be in the spotlight as next season there will be more to prove and less mistakes to be made.

What a junior season the next one will be though, Ted's not gonna know what to say between these three and throw in Petrosyan and maybe Berestovskaia, too. It will definitely be exciting with a whole new wave of juniors!