2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[readernick]

As much as I love the Russian ladies, I can't help but feel like their SS, on average, are lower than the Japanese ladies. Especially in the area of keeping a flowing edge after landing a jump. Maybe it's the choreography, or maybe the coaching? Or maybe I'm just being blind.

You aren't blind. It isn't just in the ladies' field. The Japanese skaters in all disciplines are renowned for their skating skills. Japanese coaches obviously focus on the SS while skaters are young. I would note, however, that the current crop of ladies junior skaters in Russia (Valieva, Daria, Maiia) all have quite good skating skills which is not something I would have said about most Russian ladies skaters in the past. ( with the obvious exception of Alena and most of Panova's skaters)

 

[silveruskate]

I'm actually not a massive fan of the Japanese haha, just Rika and Kaori haha. I'm actually a much bigger fan of the Russian skaters. However, that's outside the point.

The initial argument was that no other country has the depth of Russia, no one else is "even close to the same level" and that second-tier Russian skaters' could beat the top three skaters of other countries and I refuted that false statement. The example I used to refute it was the Japanese skaters, as they have incredible depth (top skaters are left at home every year) and are very close to the same level - Rika in particular could beat all Russians. Obviously they have to do it in competition - that WAS MY WHOLE POINT. Russian skaters, included though. I am talking about reality and that's why are initially argued that it's disingenuous to claim that Russian skaters could beat everyone, even second-tier ones.

I love Rika, but as it stands no. What is more objective than the season's bests of last season? She also had 3 triple axels in 2019 but couldn't beat Alina. Saying they have jump X and Y means nothing. Rika's season best is lower than the 3A. At number 2 was Satoko with 211, which was behind 8 Russian skaters including Valieva and Sinitsyna. The skaters left at home are nowhere close to the level, Kaori at #4 had a 203 max score.

 

[chasingneverland]

Funnily enough, they still managed to win the gold medal at all six GP stages and sweep the podiums of all other competitions they attended last season. Sasha and Anna also won their competitions this season thus far, thereby beating other skaters who also showed clean quads (in Sasha's case) and triple axels (in Anna's case).

Ah yes!! Anna is my favourite skater (although I also have a soft spot for Alena and Sasha and cheer for them)! I never said they would be beaten - in fact I hope they win - I wish all 3 could haha. I very much hope all 3 DO skate cleanly and skate the programs they want to (and have done in practice). My argument was lets wait to see all the top skaters on the same ice before we proclaim anyone winners (including the Russian ladies).

 

[readernick]

I love Rika, but as it stands no. What is more objective than the season's bests of last season? She also had 3 triple axels in 2019 but couldn't beat Alina. Saying they have jump X and Y means nothing. Rika's season best is lower than the 3A. At number 2 was Satoko with 211, which was behind 8 Russian skaters including Valieva and Sinitsyna. The skaters left at home are nowhere close to the level, Kaori at #4 had a 203 max score.

Rika had a lower BV than the 3A last year due to injury and removal of the 3Lz. Include the lutz and her score would be in in their range even without 4S. And, she has beaten Alina in most competitions. She lost to Alina when she fell /popped 2 out of 3 axels at Worlds. She never lost to Alina with 3 clean 3As.

 

[silveruskate]

Rika had a lower BV than the 3A last year due to injury and removal of the 3Lz. Include the lutz and her score would be in in their range even without 4S. And, she has beaten Alina in most competitions. She lost to Alina when she fell /popped 2 out of 3 axels at Worlds. She never lost to Alina with 3 clean 3As.

Alina's highest is a 239 that Rika has not reached. It isn't fair to say she lost because she fell. Is it so controversial to believe you have to actually do the content in competition to be better?

 

[chasingneverland]

I love Rika, but as it stands no. What is more objective than the season's bests of last season? She also had 3 triple axels in 2019 but couldn't beat Alina. Saying they have jump X and Y means nothing. Rika's season best is lower than the 3A. At number 2 was Satoko with 211, which was behind 8 Russian skaters including Valieva and Sinitsyna. The skaters left at home are nowhere close to the level, Kaori at #4 had a 203 max score.

OMG. No one is saying that Rika WILL beat them (Anna, Sasha, and Alena). No one is saying that Kaori will beat Anna, Sasha, and Alena. That wasn't even presented as a comparison. All that was being compared is that Rika is at the same level as Russia's top 3 (which is true) - she hasn't beaten them but to say their not at the same level isn't true at all. And that the other Russian ladies are on the same level as the other Japanese skaters.

Also, Sasha herself is the only one who has skated at/close to her TES of last year. (Although I very very very much hope Anna gets her 4Lz and 4Lz-3T back and stabilizes her 3Lz-3Lo - sooo happy about her 4F - and that Alena gets her 3A back.) So, not that's not an objective comparison for this coming year - which was what I was arguing. All I was saying let's wait until they meet this year before pre-emptively declaring a winner and saying "second-best Russian skaters" could beat everyone else. Yes, maybe they could, but that's definitely not a given. Also, my comment with Japanese depth was in regards to it being hard to qualify for Japan's international spots. Every year, Japan leaves someone (or multiple someones) home who could easily be their 2nd or 3rd best.

 

[readernick]

Alina's highest is a 239 that Rika has not reached. It isn't fair to say she lost because she fell. Is it so controversial to believe you have to actually do the content in competition to be better?

You didn't say her highest score was lower than Alina's . You said she couldn't beat Alina and she did at GPF in 2018/2019 and that was with two 3As not three. She also did at the two major competitions they met in last year.

Anyway, it is as stated above... she is at their level. She's definitely has a chance to be competitive with them... Will she beat them? Who knows?

 

[silveruskate]

You didn't say her highest score was lower than Alina's . You said she couldn't beat Alina Alina and she did at GPF in 2018/2019 and that was with two 3As not three. She also did at the two major competitions they met in this year.

Anyway, it is as stated above... she is at their level. She's definitely has a chance to be competitive with them...

I'm sorry you're right.

But no she is not at their level....yet.

 

[silveruskate]

OMG. No one is saying that Rika WILL beat them (Anna, Sasha, and Alena). No one is saying that Kaori will beat Anna, Sasha, and Alena. That wasn't even presented as a comparison. All that was being compared is that Rika is at the same level as Russia's top 3 (which is true) - she hasn't beaten them but to say their not at the same level isn't true at all. And that the other Russian ladies are on the same level as the other Japanese skaters.

Also, Sasha herself is the only one who has skated at/close to her TES of last year. (Although I very very very much hope Anna gets her 4Lz and 4Lz-3T back and stabilizes her 3Lz-3Lo - sooo happy about her 4F - and that Alena gets her 3A back.) So, not that's not an objective comparison for this coming year - which was what I was arguing. All I was saying let's wait until they meet this year before pre-emptively declaring a winner and saying "second-best Russian skaters" could beat everyone else. Yes, maybe they could, but that's definitely not a given. Also, my comment with Japanese depth was in regards to it being hard to qualify for Japan's international spots. Every year, Japan leaves someone (or multiple someones) home who could easily be their 2nd or 3rd best.

"The second-tier Russian ladies are better than almost every country's top three."

This was the comment. Not what you said, and I see no lies.

 

[readernick]

Switching topics, any news about two of my favorite Russian ladies Elizaveta Osokina and my daughter Ksenia? I miss their skating.

 

[nussnacker]

Switching topics, any news about two of my favorite Russian ladies Elizaveta Osokina and my daughter Ksenia? I miss their skating.

So from what I see neither Osokina, nor Samodelkina have participated in Rus Cup stages yet, right? This would leave them both to stages 4 and 5. Akatieva also has to compete a 2nd time, as well as Petrosyan. 4 and 5 are going to be pretty stacked in juniors.

 

[chasingneverland]

"The second-tier Russian ladies are better than almost every country's top three."

This was the comment. Not what you said, and I see no lies.

Really you see no lies? I guess the question is who do you consider "second-tier Russian ladies"?

 

[chasingneverland]

Switching topics, any news about two of my favorite Russian ladies Elizaveta Osokina and my daughter Ksenia? I miss their skating.

No.. Hoping for Ksenia for stages 4 and 5! I miss her graceful and artistic presence on the ice.

 

[silveruskate]

Really you see no lies? I guess the question is who do you consider "second-tier Russian ladies"?

Skaters not going to Euros/Four Continents/Worlds.

 

[chasingneverland]

I'm sorry you're right.

But no she is not at their level....yet.

I would say that a girl with 3A-3T and 3A (having landed both in international competition) is DEFINITELY at their level. She has the second highest short program TES in the world - coming in second only to Alena.

 

[chasingneverland]

Skaters not going to Euros/Four Continents/Worlds.

Not going this year (or likely to go last year) like Anna, Alena, or Sasha or not going in general/haven't been at all prior to the 3A?

 

[Arbitrary]

OMG. No one is saying that Rika WILL beat them (Anna, Sasha, and Alena). No one is saying that Kaori will beat Anna, Sasha, and Alena. That wasn't even presented as a comparison. All that was being compared is that Rika is at the same level as Russia's top 3 (which is true) - she hasn't beaten them but to say their not at the same level isn't true at all. And that the other Russian ladies are on the same level as the other Japanese skaters.

Also, Sasha herself is the only one who has skated at/close to her TES of last year. (Although I very very very much hope Anna gets her 4Lz and 4Lz-3T back and stabilizes her 3Lz-3Lo - sooo happy about her 4F - and that Alena gets her 3A back.) So, not that's not an objective comparison for this coming year - which was what I was arguing. All I was saying let's wait until they meet this year before pre-emptively declaring a winner and saying "second-best Russian skaters" could beat everyone else. Yes, maybe they could, but that's definitely not a given. Also, my comment with Japanese depth was in regards to it being hard to qualify for Japan's international spots. Every year, Japan leaves someone (or multiple someones) home who could easily be their 2nd or 3rd best.

For a skater X to beat a skater Y is simply a matter of having higher scores "today".
Not having higher BV overall, weighted or median.
The only real problem which may influence is the very fact there are no international competitions where Kihira would stand against Scherbakova, Liu against Trusova, Kostornaya against Bell etc.

 

[silveruskate]

I would say that a girl with 3A-3T and 3A (having landed both in international competition) is DEFINITELY at their level. She has the second highest short program TES in the world - coming in second only two Alena.

We see it differently. For me, what you put out on the ice is all that matters. Anna, Alena and Sasha all had a season's best over 240 that year. Rika's was 232.

When thinking about the current top-tier I don't look at past achievements. The skaters that were going to represent Russia at Worlds and Europeans in 2019-20 are the top-tier. E.g. Leonova was still skating until recently, but she isn't top-tier still.

 

[[email protected]]

Maybe it's an honest opinion? Unpopular but an honest opinion. Maybe that person has different criteria for depth.

It's impossible to prove that a person does not believe in something. For one thing a lot of people believe that the Earth is flat. But once we go to criteria other than "I believe so" then sorry. In this particular case there are none. I don't want to continue in the public domain. If you feel that I am missing something we could discuss this in private.

 

[[email protected]]

You seem pretty confident of that. Winning trumps everything moose. and Liza would have won a lot more or at least placed much higher with TT the last 2 years if she was there.

I'm sure she's frustrated how in the world she nails one of the super jumps and still only scores 213. yeah I know everybody's going to say there's more to it than that and of course there is but it's not like she doesn't do anything else.

Liza after her WC win lost motivation for a while. And she lost the momentum with that. Being a strong person she has managed to come back stringer than before. Alas the times have changed. And with 3 only rule it's nearly an impossible task now.