2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating | Page 501 | Golden Skate

2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

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Jontor said:
I was browsing around YouTube for Russian Cup videos, and this is what I found (most # of viewings)

1. Valieva 843.000 views
2. Shcherbakova 539.000
3. Trusova 460.000
4. Usacheva 226.000
5. Tuktamysheva 214.000
6. Khromykh 63.000
7. Konstantinova 59.000
8. Samodurova 45.000
9. Frolova 35.000
10. Talalaikina 12.000 (Yay! You go Maria! :hap10:)

I couldn't find any videos for Shulskaya, Nugumanova and Guliakova:(

I don't know if some videos are blocked for me here in Sweden. If you see any videos with more viewings - please say so.

What does this mean? Can we draw any conclusions?
Click to expand...

I wonder how many views did Alina Zagitova's skates have in November of 2016... :sneaky:
 
Kostornaia's 3A really was a game changer - or was it?
What would have happened if she didn't have her 3A last season? Let's find out!

I have changed every 3A to a 2A (with +5 GOE, her 2A's are excellent).
And as she can't do three 2A's in the free, her 3A+2T combo I have changed to a 3Lz+2T combo (I'm sure that was what the Eteri team would do) and with the same GOE as she scored with the 3A+2T.

Finlandia Trophy:
Short: No 3A, the score is the same
Long: 3A+2T 11.97 --> 3Lz+2T 9.17
Long: 3A< 6.49 --> 2A 4.95
Old score 234.84 --> New score 230.50.
Tuktamysheva was 2nd with 212.53 so Kostornaia would have won anyway.

Internationaux de France:
Short: 3A< 6.13 --> 2A 4.95
Long: 3A+2T 11.59 --> 3Lz+2T 8.89
Long: 3A 10.63 --> 2A 4.95
Old score 236.00 --> New score 226.44
Zagitova was 2nd with 216.06 so Kostornaia would have won anyway

NHK Trophy:
Short: 3A 10.40 --> 2A 4.95
Long: 3A+2T 11.81 --> 3Lz+2T 9.05
Long: 3A< 3.66 --> 2A 4.95 (this was a bad 3A, she actually lost points on this one)
Old score: 240.00 --> New score 233.08
Kihira was 2nd with 231.84 so Kostornaia would have won anyway, but it was close!

Grand Prix Final:
Short: 3A 10.97 --> 2A 4.95
Long: 3A+2T 10.79 --> 3Lz+2T 8.30
Long: 3A 10.74 --> 2A 4.95
Old score 247.59 --> New score 233.29
Shcherbakova was 2nd with 240.92 and Trusova 3rd with 233.18 so Kostornaia would have dropped to 2nd just an inch ahead of Trusova.

Europeans:
Short: 3A 10.63 --> 2A 4.95
Long: 3A+2T 12.27 --> 3Lz+2T 9.39
Long: 3A 10.29 --> 2A 4.95
Old score 240.81 --> New score 226.91
Shcherbakova was 2nd with 237.76 and Trusova 3rd with 225.34 so Kostornaia would have dropped to 2nd

RusNats:
Short: 3A 11.66 --> 2A 4.95
Long: 3A+2T 12.73 --> 3Lz+2T 9.73
Long: 3A 11.89 --> 2A 4.95
Old score 259.83 --> New score 243.18
Trusova was 3rd with 226.34 so Kostornaia was safely in 2nd place anyway

Conclusion:
Without the 3A, Kostornaia would have lost her Grand Prix Final and European titles to Shcherbakova. All the other results remains the same.
What's impressive is that without a 3A she would still have beaten Trusova every time. And it's even more impressive that she beats Kihira who had three 3A's at NHK. That's the power of Kostornaia, and it shows how important every single element is. Kostornaia is the GOE grabber!
 
Last edited:
Jontor said:
Kostornaia's 3A really was a game changer - or was it?
What would have happened if she didn't have her 3A last season? Let's find out!

I have changed every 3A to a 2A (with +5 GOE, her 2A's are excellent).
And as she can't do three 2A's in the free, her 3A+2T combo I have changed to a 3Lz+2T combo (I'm sure that was what the Eteri team would do) and with the same GOE as she scored with the 3A+2T.

Finlandia Trophy:
Short: No 3A, the score is the same
Long: 3A+2T 11.97 --> 3Lz+2T 9.17
Long: 3A< 6.49 --> 2A 4.95
Old score 234.84 --> New score 230.50.
Tuktamysheva was 2nd with 212.53 so Kostornaia would have won anyway.

Internationaux de France:
Short: 3A< 6.13 --> 2A 4.95
Long: 3A+2T 11.59 --> 3Lz+2T 8.89
Long: 3A 10.63 --> 2A 4.95
Old score 236.00 --> New score 226.44
Zagitova was 2nd with 216.06 so Kostornaia would have won anyway

NHK Trophy:
Short: 3A 10.40 --> 2A 4.95
Long: 3A+2T 11.81 --> 3Lz+2T 9.05
Long: 3A< 3.66 --> 2A 4.95 (this was a bad 3A, she actually lost points on this one)
Old score: 240.00 --> New score 233.08
Kihira was 2nd with 231.84 so Kostornaia would have won anyway, but it was close!

Grand Prix Final:
Short: 3A 10.97 --> 2A 4.95
Long: 3A+2T 10.79 --> 3Lz+2T 8.30
Long: 3A 10.74 --> 2A 4.95
Old score 247.59 --> New score 233.29
Shcherbakova was 2nd with 240.92 and Trusova 3rd with 233.18 so Kostornaia would have dropped to 2nd just an inch ahead of Trusova.

Europeans:
Short: 3A 10.63 --> 2A 4.95
Long: 3A+2T 12.27 --> 3Lz+2T 9.39
Long: 3A 10.29 --> 2A 4-95
Old score 240.81 --> New score 226.91
Shcherbakova was 2nd with 237.76 and Trusova 3rd with 225.34 so Kostornaia would have dropped to 2nd

RusNats:
Short: 3A 11.66 --> 2A 4.95
Long: 3A+2T 12.73 --> 3Lz+2T 9.73
Long: 3A 11.89 --> 2A 4.95
Old score 259.83 --> New score 243.18
Trusova was 3rd with 226.34 so Kostornaia was safely in 2nd place anyway

Conclusion:
Without the 3A, Kostornaia would have lost her Grand Prix Final and European titles to Shcherbakova. All the other results remains the same.
What's impressive is that without a 3A she would still have beaten Trusova every time. And it's even more impressive that she beats Kihira who had three 3A's at NHK. That's the power of Kostornaia, and it shows how important every single element is. Kostornaia is the GOE grabber!
Click to expand...
Assuming she’d get +5 GOE for every 2A at every competition is a huuuuuge stretch and not a realistic assumption. Like the fact that you’re putting her behind Rika at NHK who landed 3 clean triple axels is ridiculous, heck she probably would’ve scored below Alina (who had a clean free skate and her Olympic Champion level PCS) in the free (Alyona still would’ve gotten silver over all thanks to the short).
 
Last edited:
Jontor said:
Kostornaia's 3A really was a game changer - or was it?
What would have happened if she didn't have her 3A last season? Let's find out!

I have changed every 3A to a 2A (with +5 GOE, her 2A's are excellent).
And as she can't do three 2A's in the free, her 3A+2T combo I have changed to a 3Lz+2T combo (I'm sure that was what the Eteri team would do) and with the same GOE as she scored with the 3A+2T.

Finlandia Trophy:
Short: No 3A, the score is the same
Long: 3A+2T 11.97 --> 3Lz+2T 9.17
Long: 3A< 6.49 --> 2A 4.95
Old score 234.84 --> New score 230.50.
Tuktamysheva was 2nd with 212.53 so Kostornaia would have won anyway.

Internationaux de France:
Short: 3A< 6.13 --> 2A 4.95
Long: 3A+2T 11.59 --> 3Lz+2T 8.89
Long: 3A 10.63 --> 2A 4.95
Old score 236.00 --> New score 226.44
Zagitova was 2nd with 216.06 so Kostornaia would have won anyway

NHK Trophy:
Short: 3A 10.40 --> 2A 4.95
Long: 3A+2T 11.81 --> 3Lz+2T 9.05
Long: 3A< 3.66 --> 2A 4.95 (this was a bad 3A, she actually lost points on this one)
Old score: 240.00 --> New score 233.08
Kihira was 2nd with 231.84 so Kostornaia would have won anyway, but it was close!

Grand Prix Final:
Short: 3A 10.97 --> 2A 4.95
Long: 3A+2T 10.79 --> 3Lz+2T 8.30
Long: 3A 10.74 --> 2A 4.95
Old score 247.59 --> New score 233.29
Shcherbakova was 2nd with 240.92 and Trusova 3rd with 233.18 so Kostornaia would have dropped to 2nd just an inch ahead of Trusova.

Europeans:
Short: 3A 10.63 --> 2A 4.95
Long: 3A+2T 12.27 --> 3Lz+2T 9.39
Long: 3A 10.29 --> 2A 4-95
Old score 240.81 --> New score 226.91
Shcherbakova was 2nd with 237.76 and Trusova 3rd with 225.34 so Kostornaia would have dropped to 2nd

RusNats:
Short: 3A 11.66 --> 2A 4.95
Long: 3A+2T 12.73 --> 3Lz+2T 9.73
Long: 3A 11.89 --> 2A 4.95
Old score 259.83 --> New score 243.18
Trusova was 3rd with 226.34 so Kostornaia was safely in 2nd place anyway

Conclusion:
Without the 3A, Kostornaia would have lost her Grand Prix Final and European titles to Shcherbakova. All the other results remains the same.
What's impressive is that without a 3A she would still have beaten Trusova every time. And it's even more impressive that she beats Kihira who had three 3A's at NHK. That's the power of Kostornaia, and it shows how important every single element is. Kostornaia is the GOE grabber!
Click to expand...
No, she wouldn't do a 3Lz+2T with that layout. Without a 3A in the layout, the combo would be a 3+2+2 combo instead of a 3F+1Eu+3S, and it would also repeat 3T and 3Flip(or 3Lutz). You'd need to change the layout entirely, so you can't do it like this.
 
Shayuki said:
No, she wouldn't do a 3Lz+2T with that layout. Without a 3A in the layout, the combo would be a 3+2+2 combo instead of a 3F+1Eu+3S, and it would also repeat 3T and 3Flip(or 3Lutz). You'd need to change the layout entirely, so you can't do it like this.
Click to expand...
You are incorrect. Kostornaia's FS layout as of test skate 2019:
2A
3Lz+2T
2A
3Lo
3F+3T x
3F+1eu+3S x
3Lz x
 
Jontor said:
I have changed every 3A to a 2A (with +5 GOE, her 2A's are excellent).
Click to expand...
Her 2A is of course excellent, but it is impossible in real competitions to constantly get +5 for any element. If you took an average score 4,5 for axel it would be closer to real life. If Kostornaya did not have 3A, Trusova would not add 4 (or 5) quad, and spend precious time to learning 3A, these calculations are useless since we do not know what content Sasha and Anna would use in this case
 
Jontor said:
Kostornaia's 3A really was a game changer - or was it?
What would have happened if she didn't have her 3A last season? Let's find out!

I have changed every 3A to a 2A (with +5 GOE, her 2A's are excellent).
And as she can't do three 2A's in the free, her 3A+2T combo I have changed to a 3Lz+2T combo (I'm sure that was what the Eteri team would do) and with the same GOE as she scored with the 3A+2T.

Finlandia Trophy:
Short: No 3A, the score is the same
Long: 3A+2T 11.97 --> 3Lz+2T 9.17
Long: 3A< 6.49 --> 2A 4.95
Old score 234.84 --> New score 230.50.
Tuktamysheva was 2nd with 212.53 so Kostornaia would have won anyway.

Internationaux de France:
Short: 3A< 6.13 --> 2A 4.95
Long: 3A+2T 11.59 --> 3Lz+2T 8.89
Long: 3A 10.63 --> 2A 4.95
Old score 236.00 --> New score 226.44
Zagitova was 2nd with 216.06 so Kostornaia would have won anyway

NHK Trophy:
Short: 3A 10.40 --> 2A 4.95
Long: 3A+2T 11.81 --> 3Lz+2T 9.05
Long: 3A< 3.66 --> 2A 4.95 (this was a bad 3A, she actually lost points on this one)
Old score: 240.00 --> New score 233.08
Kihira was 2nd with 231.84 so Kostornaia would have won anyway, but it was close!

Grand Prix Final:
Short: 3A 10.97 --> 2A 4.95
Long: 3A+2T 10.79 --> 3Lz+2T 8.30
Long: 3A 10.74 --> 2A 4.95
Old score 247.59 --> New score 233.29
Shcherbakova was 2nd with 240.92 and Trusova 3rd with 233.18 so Kostornaia would have dropped to 2nd just an inch ahead of Trusova.

Europeans:
Short: 3A 10.63 --> 2A 4.95
Long: 3A+2T 12.27 --> 3Lz+2T 9.39
Long: 3A 10.29 --> 2A 4-95
Old score 240.81 --> New score 226.91
Shcherbakova was 2nd with 237.76 and Trusova 3rd with 225.34 so Kostornaia would have dropped to 2nd

RusNats:
Short: 3A 11.66 --> 2A 4.95
Long: 3A+2T 12.73 --> 3Lz+2T 9.73
Long: 3A 11.89 --> 2A 4.95
Old score 259.83 --> New score 243.18
Trusova was 3rd with 226.34 so Kostornaia was safely in 2nd place anyway

Conclusion:
Without the 3A, Kostornaia would have lost her Grand Prix Final and European titles to Shcherbakova. All the other results remains the same.
What's impressive is that without a 3A she would still have beaten Trusova every time. And it's even more impressive that she beats Kihira who had three 3A's at NHK. That's the power of Kostornaia, and it shows how important every single element is. Kostornaia is the GOE grabber!
Click to expand...
This doesn't sound ethically right in my mind. Kihira with that layout difficulty and execution shouldn't be beaten by a Kostornaia without 3A.
 
Zora said:
Wow, this is ridiculous. But step sequences these days rarely reflect the music anymore and are quite interchangeable, so why not take advantage of that...
Click to expand...
I think it's because people would never have noticed it significantly until it was pointed out to them. The musics are just so different and the step sequence looks so right on both musics that I would never have paid closer attention.
 
GINO said:
Her 2A is of course excellent, but it is impossible in real competitions to constantly get +5 for any element. If you took an average score 4,5 for axel it would be closer to real life. If Kostornaya did not have 3A, Trusova would not add 4 (or 5) quad, and spend precious time to learning 3A, these calculations are useless since we do not know what content Sasha and Anna would use in this case
Click to expand...
You're absolutely right. +5 for her 2A is maybe a stretch, but if we change it to a +4 it would only mean -0.66 per competition, so she would still be ahead of Kihira at NHK (but dropped to 3rd behind Trusova at GPF).
But yes, this kind of calculation is impossible to make as there are a million other factors, including PCS, as well as other skaters layouts.
 
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yume said:
This doesn't sound ethically right in my mind. Kihira with that layout difficulty and execution shouldn't be beaten by a Kostornaia without 3A.
Click to expand...
I know. It's crazy isn't it! But it shows how far you can get with excellent skating like Kostornaia's. That's how the point system works. Good GOE's gets you very far.
Kihira didn't have any Lutzes last year, so that's also a factor.
 
Jontor said:
I was browsing around YouTube for Russian Cup videos, and this is what I found (most # of viewings)

1. Valieva 843.000 views
2. Shcherbakova 539.000
3. Trusova 460.000
4. Usacheva 226.000
5. Tuktamysheva 214.000
6. Khromykh 63.000
7. Konstantinova 59.000
8. Samodurova 45.000
9. Frolova 35.000
10. Talalaikina 12.000 (Yay! You go Maria! :hap10:)

I couldn't find any videos for Shulskaya, Nugumanova and Guliakova:(

I don't know if some videos are blocked for me here in Sweden. If you see any videos with more viewings - please say so.

What does this mean? Can we draw any conclusions? Well, we mustn't forget that some viewers might not like the skater.
E.g. I am sure Nadya has probably watched Anna's videos a hundred times to check out edges and stuff...;)

Edit: Thanks to Nadya, I now found Guliakova 18.000
Click to expand...
Adelia Petrosyan FS 225.000 (y) SP 177.000 (y)
 
yume said:
This doesn't sound ethically right in my mind. Kihira with that layout difficulty and execution shouldn't be beaten by a Kostornaia without 3A.
Click to expand...
Kihira wasn't at her max. She skated without triple lutzes and although quad Sal helps to eliminate one more double, -5 GOE and fall deduction plus probably some PCS deduction make it costs about 2T.
 
Mawwerg said:
Kihira wasn't at her max. She skated without triple lutzes and although quad Sal helps to eliminate one more double, -5 GOE and fall deduction plus probably some PCS deduction make it costs about 2T.
Click to expand...
She didn't attempt 4S. Even without 3lz her BV would be higher by more than 5 points. Kostornaia isn't that better technically or artistically to beat that by almost 2 points imo.
With three lutzes Kihira wouldn't have even beat her by far. Or wouldn't have won if Kostornaya had Medvedeva's old pcs.

Jontor said:
I know. It's crazy isn't it! But it shows how far you can get with excellent skating like Kostornaia's. That's how the point system works. Good GOE's gets you very far.
Kihira didn't have any Lutzes last year, so that's also a factor.
Click to expand...
That's why sometimes i think that there isn't enough balance between difficulty and quality. A skater like Kihira would have needed a perfect quad + three 3As to beat a skater like Kostornaya with usual 7 and 3 triples programs, no 3A, not even a -3lo combo, but with +4/5 everywhere and 9,50 on all components.
 
yume said:
She didn't attempt 4S. Even without 3lz her BV would be higher by more than 5 points. Kostornaia isn't that better technically or artistically to beat that by almost 2 points imo.
With three lutzes Kihira wouldn't have even beat her by far. Or wouldn't have won if Kostornaya had Medvedeva's old pcs.


That's why sometimes i think that there isn't enough balance between difficulty and quality. A skater like Kihira would have needed a perfect quad + three 3As to beat a skater like Kostornaya with usual 7 and 3 triples programs, no 3A, not even a -3lo combo, but with +4/5 everywhere and 9,50 on all components.
Click to expand...
And it’s not like Rika’s quality is bad anyway. The gap between her quality and Alyona’s is nowhere near as high as the difference in GOE suggests and shouldn’t be enough to give an Alyona with no triple axel the win over a clean Rika with three triple axels.
 
yume said:
She didn't attempt 4S. Even without 3lz her BV would be higher by more than 5 points. Kostornaia isn't that better technically or artistically to beat that by almost 2 points imo.
With three lutzes Kihira wouldn't have even beat her by far. Or wouldn't have won if Kostornaya had Medvedeva's old pcs.


That's why sometimes i think that there isn't enough balance between difficulty and quality. A skater like Kihira would have needed a perfect quad + three 3As to beat a skater like Kostornaya with usual 7 and 3 triples programs, no 3A, not even a -3lo combo, but with +4/5 everywhere and 9,50 on all components.
Click to expand...
That's the results of the +5/-5-system. Kostornaia would not have been this dominant with the +3-system.

What is best is, I guess, a matter of opinion. The ISU implemented the +5 system (plus lowered the BV for the quads) to prevent to have skaters attempting difficult elements, fail, and still win. That was very common in the Men's event when clean skating could never beat quad attempts (with falls). Skaters like Kostornaia and Jason Brown really benefitted from the new system - if they skated clean.
 
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kirauza343 said:
The gap between her quality and Alyona’s is nowhere near as high as the difference in GOE suggests and shouldn’t be enough to give an Alyona with no triple axel the win over a clean Rika with three triple axels.
Click to expand...
Kostornaia without a 3A won’t win against a cleanish layout with three 3As though. (With or without a 3Lz.) The math is incorrect as is often the case when people try to do these sort of calculations.
 
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