2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[chasingneverland]

I wish they gave bonuses to spins, steps and choreographic sequences. I understand that they wanted to give more incentive for skaters to land quads, but now that a quad or 3A is necessary already to compete for the top, they should start to give the other side of skating more push too. I'd even argue for a +2 on step sequences and choreographic sequences because if done well, they can be the highlight of a program.

They DO give bonuses to spins. Just 1 though not 2 like in 3A's or quads.

Also the talk of bonuses is kinda irrelevant because it isn't at nationals and isn't internationally. I think it's more of an incentive to get level 4 spins (with good execution) and quads, especially at the depth levels. It's used at the Russian Cup to act as an incentive to younger, newer, depth skaters. Remember the top skaters don't usually participate.

 

[[email protected]]

The beginning of the 2018-2019 season? Her personal best combined total is from the middle of that season, and she was a hell of a lot more consistent in the 2019-2020 season and came close to that total several times even with no lutz. I’d call it a better season even if she didn’t have the same results (breaking 230 4 times as opposed to just once, broke 80 even without her lutz, zero falls on her triple axel, only one pop, and a much higher success rate in the short program).

Whether or not she beat Anna, Sasha, and Alena isn’t relevant to whether or not she’s capable of breaking 80 points in the short program here which is the original claim here (and I feel like that original claim is being forgotten). Kamila and the other Russian ladies are fantastic but there’s zero reason to insult Rika and make baseless claims about her form to prop Kamila up.

I guess that you should have replied to that "original claim" which I don't remember and which was not mine. Can Rika beat 80 with 3A and 3Lz? By all means, if clean. Is she currently a competitive threat to Kamila and Anna - those skaters who domestically got more than 80? I have no idea - I have not seen her competing for some time now. So the target of your emotional response should be those who "insult Rika". I am surely not one of those. I don't insult anyone. Maximum what you can hear from me is that I absolutely dislike Wakaba's skating style and don't understand the hype around her. But I've been saying this for 6 years now.

 

[Elana]

My favourite thing about Nugumanova's spins is that she uses the acceleration feature in her layback. That always looks fantastic, so that's a huge plus for me.

I rewatched her layback to see that feature, as I always think it's a cool one to see too. But I didn't notice any special acceleration there. Correct me if I am wrong, but her level four comes from the illusion (1), side layback (2), haircutter (3), she actually kind of does two different haircutter variations in the spin, and then the Beilman (4). Is the acceleration feature a different spin of hers?

 

[Skatesocs]

I rewatched her layback to see that feature, as I always think it's a cool one to see too. But I didn't notice any special acceleration there. Correct me if I am wrong, but her level four comes from the illusion (1), side layback (2), haircutter (3), she actually kind of does two different haircutter variations in the spin, and then the Beilman (4). Is the acceleration feature a different spin of hers?

I just rewatched the Rostelecom SP, and I think she did accelerate slightly in that second haircutter position? I don't think it's much different either though, and maybe she's just trying to vary her speed naturally with the music (and so the choreography other features for the levels). Or maybe it's my eyes playing tricks on me.

Now I'm curious if her I-Spin in the LP for the combo spin is accelerated too or not Usually though the golden standard is something like the Lipnitskaya hyperextended I-Spin for speed variation. Again maybe she's just trying to vary speed with the music, and this probably won't count for a feature, you're right.

 

[Vlad Karigov]

So, after watching the junior ladies, it looks like Junior Nats will be a battle between Samodelkina and Akatieva. (if Kamila doesn‘t go)

The podium in the Junior Nationals will be:

Akatieva vs Samodelkina for the gold

Berestovskaia vs Petrosyan for bronze

The beauty and delicacy that Berestovskaia transmits on and off the ice I have not seen since Yulia... and that already places her at the highest level. If she slightly correct your TES you can surpass Akatieva and be she best of her generation...

 

[Alex65]

...

As for the others: My two favorite junior ladies were here today! Sadly, Adelia wasn‘t perfect, so she‘s only third. I‘m hoping she shows that 4T tomorrow and moves up a spot in the FS. Her energy and enthusiasm are still so wonderful to see and she‘s always a joy to watch. Also... those spins!! I‘m not sure about the program but Adelia can make me like everything she skates to. (quite similar to Aliona in that regard)

Liza Osokina was amazing, too. I loved how she sang along to her song while skating. So much energy, personality and sass. And those skating skills! She’s literally flying across the ice. Her jumping‘s good, too, although she still wasn’t in her test skates form. That entry into the lutz is great. She really is special and it makes me mad that her quality isn‘t rewarded more. Why is she so underscored in PCS? Imo, she‘s the best at the moment of the top 4 in that regard. She has to clean up her FCSp a bit, though, she‘s losing a lot of speed on it and the position, while unique, looks a bit messy.

Zhilina is a very special talent. Congrats on the 3A+3T. Incredible jumping technique. The rest, however, is still not all that impressive to me. I don‘t see how she could ever get more PCS than Osokina when she‘s obviously less invested in her program and doesn‘t perform at all. Also, she stumbled a few times. It‘s okay, she‘s got time - but right now she‘s focusing mostly on TES and that should be reflected in her PCS. Imo, she‘s quite a bit behind all of the others in the top 4.

Sad for Alina Gorbacheva, hopefully she can bounce back tomorrow.

Overall, the standings are correct, I would probably just close the gaps a bit. Osokina should not be 5 points behind Petrosyan who made a mistake. Similarly, the PCS should be different, too, in my eyes, though I realise this is highly subjective.

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Does a spin with such a long journey deserve these bonuses?

 

[nussnacker]

She has to clean up her FCSp a bit, though, she‘s losing a lot of speed on it and the position, while unique, looks a bit messy.

Same, I had a different impression from Osokina as a spinner on test skates compared to her 2 recent outings. Her spins really impressed me at test skates, her recent two performances weren't overall on par with her test skate outings, but mostly spins became really noticeable, because of how slow she was in some positions. Hopefully she can clean her program up by junior nationals, it's a shame she's struggling a little now. It's already better than last time, although hesitant, there were no major mistakes. So I can see how by JrNats or Moscow Championship she makes enough progress to improve her results.

 

[Lzbee]

They are. She's a bit sloppy with holding her positions long enough so she often loses levels. She's such a great spinner so it's odd that they are not always level 4s.

Hmmmm, out of curiosity, is it possible to get the bonus on a level 3 spin or does it have to be level 4?

 

[nussnacker]

Hmmmm, out of curiosity, is it possible to get the bonus on a level 3 spin or does it have to be level 4?

Has to be Level 4 and avg GOE+4. Other levels won't earn bonuses.

 

[Amei]

Kamila's quads from this competition have got me like:

I think they might've fixed the timing and axis issues, and it's just gorgeous, beautiful, amazing, incredible. It's so tall it looks like there's enough for a 5th revolution.

I like this FS dress more, and it reminds me of the dress of this cutie pie here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5zJJkydCEk

Her first quad toe still had a wild looking axis. Her FS dress is less ugly than the 1 at her last Cup event.

Kamila is brilliant, but I don't see Anna Shcherbakova far away from her. If Kamila makes mistakes, which she often does and which is perfectly normal for a skater who includes multiple quads, 3As, triple-triple combinations, then Anna has every chance to beat her with her 4F or 4Lz or both. Her only problem is the short program, because she doesn't have a 3A. And I don't see anyone else coming close to them. Well done by Tutberidze!

Agree, the only thing that sets her apart at this moment from Shcherbakova is her ability to do the triple axel in the SP, and Shcherbakova has mentioned that she was working on the triple axel.

I was tired just watching Osokina. She's a star!

Was surprised to see that Zhilina got higher PCS than Osokina here. Osokina was so engaged in the choreography and interpretation of that program. Poor Veronika unfortunately had a few trips in the program and though this was my first time enjoying one of her skates, she still does lack the engagement and expression in her programs. Just a bit confused on the PCS scoring.

Politics is the only explanation in my opinion that Zhilina beat Osokina in PCS, as good as Zhilina is she had stumbles today and still won in skating skills and seemed a bit nervous whereas Osokina is just oozing personality during her performance.

I thought Osokina was being coached by Buyanova at CSKA as she was with her at test skates but I've not seen her at either of the cup stages with Osokina.

 

[Fluture]

I always appreciate your opinion. Just suggest taking a look at this rotation:

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

youtu.be

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Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

youtu.be

Does a spin with such a long journey deserve these bonuses?

Thank you for the videos!

Hm. And you're right, there is some pretty obvious traveling in those spins. I understand that bonuses are given for spins with all 4s and 5s? From a feeling while watching, I'd probably give +4 to the second spin (so a bonus) and +3 for the first one. (no bonus)

Let's take the ISU guidelines again and check whether my feeling was right.

1) good speed and/or acceleration during spin
2) good controlled, clear position(s) (inc. height and air/landing position in flying spin)
3) effortless throughout
4) maintaining a centered spin
5) creativity and/or originality
6) element matches the music

For the first spin (CCoSp4), I think she definitely checks the first three bullets. The spin's not centered, so she doesn't get bullet point 4. Points 5 and 6 are the hardest because they're the most subjective. Is the spin original/creative? She's flexible and her positions are great but for me, they're not exactly unique, we've seen many ladies with spins like that. Originality or creativity, for me, would mean something like Osokina's spins. So, it's basically the last point that decides whether or not she'll get +4 and a bonus. There are moments when I felt the spin matched the music, for example, when she changes position and moves her head upwards (at around 1:12), I think, right to the musical accent. Also afterwards, when the music picks up and she raises her leg (at around 1:22-23). However, I felt that this was not timed perfectly. I can't explain why but she was either a split second too fast or too late (can't tell from watching). Either way, it wasn't quite as well done and with the traveling and other imperfections (+my personal bias going into this exercise), I wouldn't award her that GOE point and thus no bonus either.

Now, the second spin (FCSp4) travels when she takes her first position but unlike the first spin, it's perfectly centered afterwards. As for the bullet points:

I'd say she checks the first three easily again. Again doesn't get the fourth due to travel. I also wouldn't call it original or creative. It's a beautiful spin but one we've seen a lot before. The last bullet point is a similar case to the CCoSp. The way she enters the spin certainly matches the music quite well (at 1:52-1:54). But later there's a very obvious cue and the music (1:59-2:01) changes but she stays in the very same position, not acknowledging this at all. So, I probably wouldn't give her that bullet point either.

Which is...interesting. I basically end up with +3 for each spin even though, during my original watch, I easily considered her spins to be +4 to +5 material. I do think they still are, in principle at least. If she centers them again - like she normally does - she's already at +4. If I wasn't so strict with the sixth bullet, she'd also reach +5 easily. The thing is, the last bullet is mostly about the choreography, not the skater themselves. I'm still not sure whether I judged correctly here - I realise it's very hard to match a spin so that it fits every musical cue.

So, I'll stop that novel now. It is a fascinating exercise, though, to judge by personal opinion first and then go check with the rulebook. Shows how difficult it actually is to apply all those criteria in real time (I'd say it's actually impossible). And the thing is - I just like Adelia's spins, I find their speed and flexibility aesthetically pleasing. Meaning: if I was a judge and judging this in real time, I'd hit those +4 and +5 buttons easily and without really thinking whether she actually fulfilled all the necessary criteria. So, yeah... I kinda understand where the bonuses are coming from, even if it's probably not quite right?

 

[Vandevska]

Liza Osokina is very entertaining, and I agree that she should've gotten higher PCS than Veronika. I think she has ! on the flip though, not really e, but ! almost for sure.

Alina Gorbacheva is showing 3A potential, 2A really high and with a lot of distance.

Great that Veronika did 3A+3T, however I think she focused so much on it and so the stumbles happened.

I quite liked Sofia Samodelkina's performance today, and I don't particularly do at other times. I enjoyed it quite a bit, and partly it's because she seems to enjoy it a lot too.

It's uncanny how much Adeliya reminds me of Evgenia lol. From the jumps (though still better than Zhenya's at that age, at least most of them), to the performance, to the looks ahahah.

Such talented skaters Veronika and Sofia are.

Needless to say, the juniors were so much more entertaining to watch during this cup. Amazing and bright future awaits us (or is it already here? )

 

[Flying Feijoa]

Another thing is the way she lands the quads, it's a bit of an iffy landing, in a way as if her body is not strong enough (I don't exactly mean "strong" but I can't think of another word to describe what I mean right now) to stabilize it upon landing. I have a theory that it might be because she's super flexible and it is messing with her a bit due to how limber she is.

Maybe because her pelvis twists to the side a lot on landing? It's kind of like a first arabesque in Balanchine versus Vaganova technique. Balanchine technique lets you twist the pelvis away from the supporting leg which gives a larger range of motion because the the leg actually moves sideways with respect to the hip joint instead of backwards. Vaganova requires the hips to be square as possible in the direction you're facing.

Most skaters have some level of pelvis twisting but hers is really pronounced. From what we've been told in ballet, it makes it harder to balance (arabesque pirouettes have to be square-hip) and increases lower back muscle imbalances. I guess she's still young and strong so she can cope - it's just not biomechanically optimal, because she has to use extra energy to hang on to the landing and it looks 'iffy'.

 

[Amei]

That's true and she is still much better technical skater than Kostornaya element for element except the 3A which in the end was still the reason she got sidelined and her PCS/GOE depressed. Was it at the GPF where her SP got underscored which in previous seasons would be at least 82+. The judges started expecting 3A and quads in programs and those who couldn't land them started seeing their scores fall. There are exceptions like the ridiculous scoring given to Sakamoto in her LP but as far as I can see the judging is trending towards that direction.

I disagree that she was a better technical skater last year than Kostornaia last year; in the SP she did not back-load her combination which cost her and specifically to the GPF she didn't have the flow or the speed that Kostornaia did in and out of elements.

 

[Vandevska]

Maybe because her pelvis twists to the side a lot on landing? It's kind of like a first arabesque in Balanchine versus Vaganova technique. Balanchine technique lets you twist the pelvis away from the supporting leg which gives a larger range of motion because the the leg actually moves sideways with respect to the hip joint instead of backwards. Vaganova requires the hips to be square as possible in the direction you're facing.

Most skaters have some level of pelvis twisting but hers is really pronounced. From what we've been told in ballet, it makes it harder to balance (arabesque pirouettes have to be square-hip) and increases lower back muscle imbalances. I guess she's still young and strong so she can cope - it's just not biomechanically optimal, because she has to use extra energy to hang on to the landing and it looks 'iffy'.

Thank you for the further analysis, I enjoyed reading this a lot.

I am not very knowledgeable on this topic, but I've heard similar things in multiple sports, that being more flexible makes you more injury prone, essentially there are pros and cons to it. It seems to be similar in cheer leading too, some super flexible flyers often have back problems, I've also heard that it's harder to balance too. I don't remember which interview it was, apparently rhythmic gymnastics helps for figure skating, but you mustn't overdo it.

 

[sclloyd]

Kamila is brilliant, but I don't see Anna Shcherbakova far away from her. If Kamila makes mistakes, which she often does and which is perfectly normal for a skater who includes multiple quads, 3As, triple-triple combinations, then Anna has every chance to beat her with her 4F or 4Lz or both. Her only problem is the short program, because she doesn't have a 3A. And I don't see anyone else coming close to them. Well done by Tutberidze!

You forget that Sasha's top combined score in this season's events is higher than Anna's (alas by only two points, but two points nonetheless). And that is including the horrible overscoring in the first cup event.

What you say makes no sense. Sasha (and maybe even Aliona if she returns to past season's form) can beat Anna and Kamila. It is nothing more than who can perform the day of. That is how competitive and close the ladies field is atm. There is no way to declare a winner before hand. One fall, a stumble, a missed rotation on a spin, a step out. Even just one of those mistakes can completely change the podium, regardless of planned content.

And not that we'd want to predict who. I have a soft spot for Aliona but asking me to pick my favorite Russian lady is like asking a mother to choose their favorite child. It cannot be done. Their merit is what they can bring to their performance on competition day. Until we see the whole field together the same competition, we can leave out comments about coaches.

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

The podium in the Junior Nationals will be:

Akatieva vs Samodelkina for the gold

Berestovskaia vs Petrosyan for bronze

The beauty and delicacy that Berestovskaia transmits on and off the ice I have not seen since Yulia... and that already places her at the highest level. If she slightly correct your TES you can surpass Akatieva and be she best of her generation...

Berestovskaya is a gorgeous performer, but she definitely needs to improve in skating skills. She lacks the speed that some of the other ladies have, and thus her jump entrances look forced and slow.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

So, I'll stop that novel now. It is a fascinating exercise, though, to judge by personal opinion first and then go check with the rulebook. Shows how difficult it actually is to apply all those criteria in real time (I'd say it's actually impossible). And the thing is - I just like Adelia's spins, I find their speed and flexibility aesthetically pleasing. Meaning: if I was a judge and judging this in real time, I'd hit those +4 and +5 buttons easily and without really thinking whether she actually fulfilled all the necessary criteria. So, yeah... I kinda understand where the bonuses are coming from, even if it's probably not quite right?

I like the job you are doing But keep in mind that those are just recommendations for the judging, not the strict rules. Your job as a judge is to judge at the moment of performance, not to analyze every single detail into the pieces. So, lets say that in your opinion two different spins checked literally 3 bullet points each - now, there is nothing wrong to give one +4 and the other +2, because the first one may be close to all the other bullet points or just had something more at that one point of judging, and the second one is far away to check rest of them, for example. If the spin is done with extreme flexibility and extremely fast (a la Lipnitskaya or Lambiel), the criteria for centering that spin will be different comparing to the centering of some other spin without those characteristics etc etc

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

It looks like Nastya Tarakanova is still at least friendly with Tutberidze Team. She follows all their Instagrams (including Eteri + Daniil) and Anna, Daria, Maiia all follow her back too.

 

[Jontor]

I like the job you are doing But keep in mind that those are just recommendations for the judging, not the strict rules. Your job as a judge is to judge at the moment of performance, not to analyze every single detail into the pieces. So, lets say that in your opinion two different spins checked literally 3 bullet points each - now, there is nothing wrong to give one +4 and the other +2, because the first one may be close to all the other bullet points or just had something more at that one point of judging, and the second one is far away to check rest of them, for example. If the spin is done with extreme flexibility and extremely fast (a la Lipnitskaya or Lambiel), the criteria for centering that spin will be different comparing to the centering of some other spin without those characteristics etc etc

Very well said Baron...

I always love Fluture's compassionate posts as well, even though they can turn into novels (if there should be a Fluture book published with all her comments...it will be like ten volumes). I'd buy that book series!

My little thought about this is that the main problem (but it is also its strength!) with figure skating is that you can never get an objective opinion. People always have different tastes and that shows in judging too.

@Fluture, who desperately tries to be objective, fails also every time, because it is obvious what she likes and don't like, and who she likes and don't like... And I am the same too....but isn't that what makes figure skating fascinating? Isn't it fantastic that there are so many different opinions and tastes out there? For me, that is one of the things I love about this sport.