2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[Alex65]

I'm not the original poster - Flanker was. And I disagree that he was insulting, if anything I think you're being rather rude and insulting.

I do not and do not desire to give Anna a priority at least in some kind of jump. I'm merely stating the facts. You argued that she wasn't the first one to land a ratified 4Lz. I merely corrected you and said she was (just not the first one internationally.) Those are facts. You're the one that's needlessly trying to put a skater down.

OK. Ask yourself the question: why does ISU not ratify results in domestic competitions? IMO, because there is no hope for the objectivity of the protocols. Everyone understands this. So, this 4Lz that you are pointing to was very Ur. And this is indisputable. He would not get ratification in international competitions. The first 4Lz of Trusova was not ratified precisely for this reason, although it was performed better.
Then let's look at the pre-season skates as a kind of Russian competition. Why can't we? There were also spectators and judges, the whole world could see it. After all, it is important to performance of the jump is not in training. This was not a training session. Let's ratify this. Why not? Probably because it does not fit into a convenient paradigm? There is no reason for me to humiliate Anna's achievements. They are great and undeniable. But I don't like it when tell a lie, when they do it not by mistake, but deliberately. In making the brackets of relevant circumstances.

 

[Amei]

OK. Ask yourself the question: why does ISU not ratify results in domestic competitions? IMO, because there is no hope for the objectivity of the protocols. Everyone understands this. So, this 4Lz that you are pointing to was very Ur. And this is indisputable. He would not get ratification in international competitions. The first 4Lz of Trusova was not ratified precisely for this reason, although it was performed better.
Then let's look at the pre-season skates as a kind of Russian competition. Why can't we? There were also spectators and judges, the whole world could see it. After all, it is important to performance of the jump is not in training. This was not a training session. Let's ratify this. Why not? Probably because it does not fit into a convenient paradigm? There is no reason for me to humiliate Anna's achievements. They are great and undeniable. But I don't like it when tell a lie, when they do it not by mistake, but deliberately. In making the brackets of relevant circumstances.

Shcherbakova was and is the first senior lady skater to land a quad lutz in competition at CS Lombardi trophy and skate America she landed 2 quad lutz jumps including 1 in combination. Trusova is and was the first in a junior competition to land a quad lutz (I dont believe shes done 2 in 1 competition or the jump in combination). Both have records to their names for "firsts".

I'll never understand the vitriol that gets slung around the topic of who was the first to land xyz jump and was it an ISU ratified competition.

 

[Alex65]

Shcherbakova was and is the first senior lady skater to land a quad lutz in competition at CS Lombardi trophy and skate America she landed 2 quad lutz jumps including 1 in combination. Trusova is and was the first in a junior competition to land a quad lutz (I dont believe shes done 2 in 1 competition or the jump in combination). Both have records to their names for "firsts".

I'll never understand the vitriol that gets slung around the topic of who was the first to land xyz jump and was it an ISU ratified competition.

Trusova is the first of women, Shcherbakova is the first of adult women. OK?

 

[Magill]

Trusova is the first of women, Shcherbakova is the first of adult women. OK?

OK .
I'll never understand the vitriol that gets slung around the topic of who was the first to land xyz jump and was it an ISU ratified competition.

 

[Vilord]

Russian Fed also uses the Russian Cup final for World team consideration. I don't agree with postponing nationals because it will open a can of worms - what's the "threshold" for number of sick skaters for it to be moved, what if <insert name> skater(s) get sick then why can't it be moved again, etc. This isn't the first time skaters have had to miss ice time before nationals or miss nationals due to illness, there's an alternative event for under-performers at Nationals.

I agree that postponing Nationals this late will only bring more problems. What they can do at this point is ether cancel the event alltogether (Its rusfed we are talking about so I find that unlikely) or let the event proceed but accept that it will be a deeply flawed event due to several top contenders having been ill and off the ice in the last month leading up to the event.

What I however hope they do is that they dont base all eventual world teams selection on this event. With the Cancelletaion of Euros the it seemed rusfed intended to host another (hopefully national competition) to replace it. I think Using this event or as you mentioned the Russian Cup final as selections competition would make more sense. Especially if one of the favoruites who have been known (or suspected) to be ill lately should underperform at nationals.

Deciding potential worlds teams later than normal is probably a good Idea anywhay since a lot can happen with a skaters form between december and april. Especially in year like this when most got a late start to the season and have had the autum training broked up by illness or time of ice due to Covid.

 

[Edwin]

Any competition is probably only to proof to the 'coaches council' the choice of the federation was right.
Nevertheless, with so many skaters weakened by quarantine and/or covid, FFKKR will probably pay more attention to any competition and might even organise a few in between New Year and Russian Cup Finals.

Regarding the Nationals, everything is ready, beautiful medals and comemorative statuettes have been created. Let's hope fror the sporting part, the championships will be a success without drama along the boards and in the press, both before, during and after the event.

Tomorrow is sort of closing date for application.

Training groups: https://fsrussia.ru/files/docs/competitons/2021/rusnat2021_training_groups.pdf , nicely divided between the teams to avoid conflicts.

 

[Lunalovesskating]

Is this were nominations to Worlds will be decided after so many skaters have been sick? They should have postponed it, there's no reason to rush anyway with Euros cancelled.

I think they may use the Final Cup again, especially with Sinitsina/Katsalapov, their No. 1 Ice Dance team, being out of Nationals. They certainly would not want them to miss Worlds (if it takes place). They were the only ones able to beat the French so far.

 

[flanker]

OK. Ask yourself the question: why does ISU not ratify results in domestic competitions? IMO, because there is no hope for the objectivity of the protocols. Everyone understands this. So, this 4Lz that you are pointing to was very Ur. And this is indisputable. He would not get ratification in international competitions. The first 4Lz of Trusova was not ratified precisely for this reason, although it was performed better.
Then let's look at the pre-season skates as a kind of Russian competition. Why can't we? There were also spectators and judges, the whole world could see it. After all, it is important to performance of the jump is not in training. This was not a training session. Let's ratify this. Why not? Probably because it does not fit into a convenient paradigm? There is no reason for me to humiliate Anna's achievements. They are great and undeniable. But I don't like it when tell a lie, when they do it not by mistake, but deliberately. In making the brackets of relevant circumstances.

You are right in one thing. There truly is no reason for you to "humiliate Anna's achievements," but obviously people are the species who do many things without a reason.
It is not a lie to say Anna was the first lady who landed first clean quadruple Lutz, because she did that a week before Sasha, the lie is to deny it. There was no claim "first who landed quad Lutz internationally", nothing bad or wrong in the original statement, because Anna landed fully rotated (unless you join the "I've-watched-it-a-thousand-times-in-a-slow-motion" camp) quad Lutz at the 2nd stage of the cup 2018 a week before Sasha landed hers in Yerevan. You could have just reacted the way "But internationally Sasha is recognized as the one who landed it in Yerevan," it would be a right statement and it could possibly lead to a normal discussion without inapproppriate claims about a "deliberate lie", but this option was obviously off the table since the very beginning.
BTW here is no reason to erase the results or achievements of the national competitions with some backup precisely in this field. For instance indisputable thing is that while Miki Ando is recognized by ISU as the first lady who landed a clean quad, it was her quad that was strongly UR (and thus IMO Sasha should be recognized as the truly first lady to land a quad internationally), so stating the whole position just on the national vs. international achievement (that even wasn't in any way disputed) and using it for assaulting other people of making "deliberate lies" is just a quarrel for the purpose of a quarrel.
In a short way: acting the way "in domestic competitions there is no hope of objectivity, therefore stating that Anna landed quad Lutz before Sasha in a competition is nothing but a deliberate lie by an evil person who just wants to - whatever" is not how a normal decent conversation is done.

 

[Alex65]

You are right in one thing. There truly is no reason for you to "humiliate Anna's achievements," but obviously people are the species who do many things without a reason.
It is not a lie to say Anna was the first lady who landed first clean quadruple Lutz, because she did that a week before Sasha, the lie is to deny it. There was no claim "first who landed quad Lutz internationally", nothing bad or wrong in the original statement, because Anna landed fully rotated (unless you join the "I've-watched-it-a-thousand-times-in-a-slow-motion" camp) quad Lutz at the 2nd stage of the cup 2018 a week before Sasha landed hers in Yerevan. You could have just reacted the way "But internationally Sasha is recognized as the one who landed it in Yerevan," it would be a right statement and it could possibly lead to a normal discussion without inapproppriate claims about a "deliberate lie", but this option was obviously off the table since the very beginning.
BTW here is no reason to erase the results or achievements of the national competitions with some backup precisely in this field. For instance indisputable thing is that while Miki Ando is recognized by ISU as the first lady who landed a clean quad, it was her quad that was strongly UR (and thus IMO Sasha should be recognized as the truly first lady to land a quad internationally), so stating the whole position just on the national vs. international achievement (that even wasn't in any way disputed) and using it for assaulting other people of making "deliberate lies" is just a quarrel for the purpose of a quarrel.
In a short way: acting the way "in domestic competitions there is no hope of objectivity, therefore stating that Anna landed quad Lutz before Sasha in a competition is nothing but a deliberate lie by an evil person who just wants to - whatever" is not how a normal decent conversation is done.

I insist on my point of view only because the statement: "She landed first ... (with clarifications blah, blah, blah) instantly turns into an absolute statement:" She was the first to do it. "
I can recall such attempts on this forum too.
I will also note the inaccuracy in your message: your link is the competition of the 4th stage of the Russian Cup. They took place in early November. The 2nd stage of the Cup was held on October 6. https://youtu.be/-jtxsUif7Ek?t=75 . Here the jump 4Lz is clearly under-rotated. Sasha jumped 4Lz https://youtu.be/WRStp6GLfjM?t=168 in the JGP of Armenia in Yerevan on October 12. Be attentive
Added: God knows, I have made every effort to provide correct and polite answers despite your obsessive desire to insult me in your every post

 

[nussnacker]

Sofia Akatieva did 2 quads and a 3A in one program. Those are not ISU ratified, but she was still only a second lady after Alysa Lui to jump a quad and a 3A in one program, and it doesn’t mean that it never happened, it’s a bad dream, she never “actually” did it, it doesn’t matter or doesn’t count. She still did it, even if it’s not ISU ratified.
And speaking about local vs ISU competition, Sofia’s jumps looked a lot less suspicious to me compared to Alysa’s from last year, just saying. So the argument that local competitions are per definition wrong in their assessments and international ones can never make a mistake is not correct, at least in this case, in my view.

 

[Alex65]

Sofia Akatieva did 2 quads and a 3A in one program. Those are not ISU ratified, but she was still only a second lady after Alysa Lui to jump a quad and a 3A in one program, and it doesn’t mean that it never happened, it’s a bad dream, she never “actually” did it, it doesn’t matter or doesn’t count. She still did it, even if it’s not ISU ratified.
And speaking about local vs ISU competition, Sofia’s jumps looked a lot less suspicious to me compared to Alysa’s from last year, just saying. So the argument that local competitions are per definition wrong in their assessments and international ones can never make a mistake is not correct, at least in this case, in my view.

It was my opinion why ISU does not take into account the results of national competitions. Maybe I'm wrong . I'm not an ISU after all).
The wording "actually did" can lead any discourse to a dead end. I am not a supporter of this path. Or it is necessary to stick to the rules - or completely ignore them consistently.

 

[Skatesocs]

This thread is going to turn me into @NadezhdaNadya if this "who landed when" continues, because literally my first thought when I saw it was happening AGAIN was to think that, actually, Veronika Zhilina was the first to land a 4Lz.

 

[nussnacker]

It was my opinion why ISU does not take into account the results of national competitions. Maybe I'm wrong . I'm not an ISU after all).
The wording "actually did" can lead any discourse to a dead end. I am not a supporter of this path. Or it is necessary to stick to the rules - or completely ignore them consistently.

well, ISU itself doesn’t always stick to the rules, in fact first ratified quad lutz in men was performed at a local competition with only 3 participants, not an ISU sanctioned international competition.

The point I have is that, local attempts and jumps still go down in skating history. Surya and Sasha Cohen, although aren’t the ones to get their quads ratified, are still recognized as those who contributed to skating history and history of quads in ladies. Anna will be part of that book too. First quad lutz performed in international ISU competition is undoubtedly Sasha’s title. But it doesn’t invalidate that Anna landed hers too locally. So both statements are correct in their own way, the question is just what people exactly mean when they say their “first”: do they mean internationally or both internationally and locally. And whether it’s worth to take offense every time and make a huge shabang out of this

 

[nussnacker]

This thread is going to turn me into @NadezhdaNadya if this "who landed when" continues, because literally my first thought when I saw it was happening AGAIN was to think that, actually, Veronika Zhilina was the first to land a 4Lz.

Ahahhaha, I thought about this too. We should also probably invalidate Mroz’ quad lutz because he had prerotation, so actual “real” first quad lutz is by Jin.

 

[Skatesocs]

Ahahhaha, I thought about this too. We should also probably invalidate Mroz’ quad lutz because he had prerotation, so actual “real” first quad lutz is by Jin.

Similar achievement as his IMO! Before Jin, everyone did attempt pre-rotated 4Lz in competitions. He changed the game in that sense, showing that, no, actually a correct 4Lz *is* possible - and looks much better!

I hope Zhilina inspires people to learn it the correct way too! Some were saying maybe it's impossible for women to land a true 4Lz, but now they can't say that since Zhilina is doing it.

 

[Alex65]

If we are to be completely consistent, the first "non-instagram" 4Lz live was here: https://youtu.be/CAUURXxFTi8?t=33

 

[nussnacker]

If we are to be completely consistent, the first "non-instagram" 4Lz live was here: https://youtu.be/CAUURXxFTi8?t=33

Sure, exactly! It depends on what the person who’s talking about this means: “first ever on a video?”, “first landed in any competition?” or “first landed in ISU international competition?”. Everyone has their own cut/meaning of what makes it first, that’s all I’m saying.

 

[flanker]

I insist on my point of view only because the statement: "She landed first ... (with clarifications blah, blah, blah) instantly turns into an absolute statement:" She was the first to do it. "
I can recall such attempts on this forum too.
I will also note the inaccuracy in your message: your link is the competition of the 4th stage of the Russian Cup. They took place in early November. The 2nd stage of the Cup was held on October 6. https://youtu.be/-jtxsUif7Ek?t=75 . Here the jump 4Lz is clearly under-rotated. Sasha jumped 4Lz https://youtu.be/WRStp6GLfjM?t=168 in the JGP of Armenia in Yerevan on October 12. Be attentive
Added: God knows, I have made every effort to provide correct and polite answers despite your obsessive desire to insult me in your every post

So, there was this conversation:

GINO: "Anna had not very good first season."

ME: "Depends how you look at it.... was the first lady to land clean 4Lz (note: at the cup stage, she landed two, the one in combo was clean, but there was a step-out on the subsequent 3T)"

YOU: "It wasn't, but you can keep trying"

Aaand I insulted you, right.

I made a mistake by linking wrong vid, OK, that's right, thank you for the correction, I was inattentive. While that doesn't change a thing on any conclusion or statement I or @chasingneverland made. Even if for you personally it is UR jump, which is wrong to me (and that's not act of me insulting you, that's simple stating of not just my own conclusion), it definitely doesn't justify your claims about a "deliberate lie" or me insulting you when in fact you are impudent and rude here. There was no conflict before, only you brought it. As I said:

"You could have just reacted the way "But internationally Sasha is recognized as the one who landed it in Yerevan,"

Or you could've said "that's wrong statement, because 1. Sasha landed 4Lz internationally and 2. Anna's 4Lz was UR to me", or just countless normal reactions. No, you jumped to the conclusion "evil hater wants to deliberately change my reality" and said "It wasn't, but you can keep trying". Which is anything but a decent reaction from a person who thinks he has the right to reproach other people for their behaviour.

When you react normally, everything will be OK, no reason for a quarrel even if our opinions are very different. But you usually react as if you've just seen enemy of the people, supposing all the worst purpose behind absolutely anything I say.

Edit: BTW whether ISU recognizes achievements from domestic competitions or not and why is not a question here at all. We here discuss domestic competitions on a daily basis, layouts, executions and of course particular elements and there is no reason for not calling a (quad) Lutz a (quad) Lutz even on domestic event, whether it was landed on nationals, cup stage or any other event. Otherwise you can easily finish with the statement that on Sunday 19 January 2020 Liverpool didn't defeat Manchester 2:0 because Premier League is not "FIFA competition".

 

[silveruskate]

That is a little sad, the first time Sasha did a 4Lz to any kind of audience. Not enough people there for it to be a real wow moment.

Zhilina's 4Lz could become the gold standard. But things like prerotation and height don't necessarily matter to GOE judges. In reality the main consideration is just "good landing".

 

[flanker]

Small inviting to the Russian Natioanls by several skaters - Stepanova/Bukin, Misha Kolyada, Anna Shcherbakova and Alexander Samarin answer their meaning about Chelyabinsk and the upcoming championships.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CI5JaCQJ_PN/