2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[chasingneverland]

Well great they all suck.

I will say though that whatever injury Sasha has its not contagious. No-one's going to suddenly develop a similar injury by standing in the same room with her.

Anna could have got an exemption from Nats and it wouldn't have hurt her at all, because the last "image" they have of her is winning Stage 2 with a massive score. Sasha on the otherhand had the Rostelecom embarrassment.

The Russian Figure Skating Fed, being the group of jerks they are though, decided to move the goalposts regarding spots, releasing a statement, that Sasha now has to fight for a spot in 3 FURTHER competitions.

How nice of them to clarify this after Sasha competed. If I was Plushy I'd be furious, utterly furious! If they had said that before perhaps he would have withdrawn her, he withdrew Aliona.

If Plushy wants to call for the disbandment of the entire Russian Figure Skating Fed, then I'm all for it.

They're destroying the sport.

True. They all do suck. Where is your outrage at Mishin for allowing Sofia to skate with a fever at test skates btw? (I assume she also tested negative for COVID and if she didn't that's even worse.)

Anna, however, had a negative COVID test at nationals. So it's reasonable for them to assume, as she didn't have COVID, she couldn't give it to her competitors.

Secondly, they actually said before (although admittedly on the eve of RusNats) that RusNats wouldn't determine the World's team and that they were looking at other competitions. (And that was probably always going to be the case. And if you're going to be outraged, it's not Sasha you should be outraged about. She's probably going to World's. (It's probably one of Aliona/Liza who aren't.)) Also, I doubt Plushy is completely, utterly furious as that saves Aliona even more (as she already missed both a Cup of Russia stage as well as Russian Nats and has had less than her standard showings and doesn't have her 3A back yet.) If you're going to be outraged, be outraged for Makar who placed second at RusNats (and for whom arguably the rules were made) and who is probably NOT going to World's if there's any chance Dmitri can get back in time (as reigning Euro champion) or maybe even Artur can make it back (as the Euros silver medalist.) Especially as the men only have two spots.

Despite the prior announcement, Anna, Sasha, and Liza all wanted to compete. In fact, Anna refused to withdraw multiple times, including literally before her FS warm up.

 

[Magill]

First of all, an opinion is by definition not definitive it's subjective.

Second of all, the whole point is that we CAN'T say that she definitively had it. It hasn't been substantiated. So saying she's lying about having pneumonia/not having COVID and that reports are inconsistent is false.

There have been no contradictory statements. All statements have said that 1. she has pneumonia, 2. she has a negative COVID test (at nationals), and 3. she has a fever. It's not contradictory for her to have had COVID and pneumonia. It's also not contradictory for her to have not have had COVID and still have had pneumonia. There are even multiple forms of pneumonia (three main forms and various types) and over 30 different causes. It's also not contradictory for her to have a fever and have pneumonia. Fever is a symptom of pneumonia. In fact, it's actually rare to have pneumonia without a fever. It's not even contradictory for her to have gotten COVID after her team was sure she didn't have it due to a false negative or even a later infection.

Thirdly, even just the fact that as even you stated "there's a wide field left for doubts" means that nothing is definitive. Definitive means conclusively.

Finally, actually the only confirmation of COVID tests that have been reported have been negative (at nationals). (Goshov, Anna, her parents, and her coaches all agree here

Ludwig • Find your English sentence
definitive opinion - German translation – Linguee
definitive opinion - Dutch translation – Linguee

How many do you need?
Goodnight and please do not drag me into this endless discussion any more. Good night!

 

[anonymoose_au]

True. They all do suck. Where is your outrage at Mishin for allowing Sofia to skate with a fever at test skates btw? (I assume she also tested negative for COVID and if she didn't that's even worse.)

Anna, however, had a negative COVID test at nationals. So it's reasonable for them to assume, as she didn't have COVID, she couldn't give it to her competitors.

Secondly, they actually said before (although admittedly on the eve of RusNats) that RusNats wouldn't determine the World's team and that they were looking at other competitions. (And that was probably always going to be the case. And if you're going to be outraged, it's not Sasha you should be outraged about. She's probably going to World's. (It's probably one of Aliona/Liza who aren't.)) Also, I doubt Plushy is completely, utterly furious as that saves Aliona even more (as she already missed both a Cup of Russia stage as well as Russian Nats and has had less than her standard showings and doesn't have her 3A back yet.) If you're going to be outraged, be outraged for Makar who placed second at RusNats (and for whom arguably the rules were made) and who is probably NOT going to World's if there's any chance Dmitri can get back in time (as reigning Euro champion) or maybe even Artur can make it back (as the Euros silver medalist.) Especially as the men only have two spots.

Despite the prior announcement, Anna, Sasha, and Liza all wanted to compete. In fact, Anna refused to withdraw multiple times, including literally before her FS warm up.

I was upset at the time. But at least Sofia withdrew in the end.

I'm not sure why we're making excuses for the Russian Figure Skating Fed, my Christmas wish would be for the skaters of Russia to rise up and overthrow them.

Honestly they couldn't have messed up things more if they tried. I'm honestly expecting them to claim herd immunity next.

As for Anna, if she refused to withdraw she should have been withdrawn! It's not rocket science.

Now a dangerous precedent is set, no coach will EVER be able to withdraw their skater because 3 time National Champion Anna S didn't and triumphed.

If you thought Russian Ladies figure skating was a bloodbath before then it's about to become a literal one.

And when a young lady is terribly, horribly injured, crumbled on the ice...

How will we all feel then?

 

[Amei]

These are not "proclamations" -- whether you like them or not. These are logical inferences that follow immediately from the collection of inconsistent statements made by the Tutberidze camp, Shcherbakova and her parents, and Russian Federation officials. All of these inconsistent statements cannot hold true simultaneously, so it must be the case that at least a subset of these statements are lies.

Has Shcherbakova, her coaches or her parents made any inconsistent statements? Based on what I've seen the 'inconsistent' statements are coming from the Fed official

 

[chasingneverland]

I sure do!

That was idiotic. Thankfully Sofia seems not to have had COVID, but once again the recklessness is off the scale.

Everyone though is claiming Anna is a smart girl...but what she did was incredibly stupid and selfish. Sure she got her third title, but at what cost? No-one even knew she was having fevers until yesterday! She could have passed on whatever she has to anyone. It might not be COVID sure, but whatever it was, it gave her pneumonia. I recently discovered there's a pneumonia vaccine (my father recently got the shot), I always thought it was a side effect of another infection, not one in itself.

WTH?

Imagine if you're Sasha and you ended up with it? How would you feel knowing that your old teammate and friend basically gave no **** for yours or anyone else's health?

Anna tested negative for COVID. How is that any different than Sofia? If you're going to use the argument that it might not be COVID but you can still pass it on, you have to use that argument for Sofia as well. (She had a cold and a fever and was crying because she was so sick and she still skated.) There are also numerous types of pneumonia and not all of them are contagious - in fact there are over 30 different causes of it.

Anna also isn't the only one who came to nats sick nor the only one who had COVID recently. Considering all the recent cases of COVID/pneumonia, I doubt she's the only one. Anna's not even the only one who had pneumonia at the time of the 5th stage/Rostelecom and still came to Russian Nats. She's also not the only one with laser focus on skating/winning in spite of everything else. Also, Anna literally had a doctor with her at RusNats and consulting her. Doctors take hippocratic oaths to not do harm. That includes to others. Now, while he may have violated his oath, that's not on Anna.

 

[readernick]

​

Well great they all suck.

Well here is something that I can agree with percent.

 

[Decoder]

Don't you think that Anna's health is none of your busyness?
I can't believe people here discuss health issues of 16 y. o. girl who didn't ask them to.

You have to understand that this is a trick/approach some people here and there always use: expressing big concerns, imagining all possibilities, mixing up contradictory reports/comments, and launching attacks. Yesterday we were witnessing one of the greatest performances in figure skating, and today we saw these disgust accusations.
I put those people in my ignore list, but their posts still show up as "ignored content" when I see the responses by others. Well, this is the life in GS anyway.

 

[Draculus]

As for Anna, if she refused to withdraw she should have been withdrawn! It's not rocket science.

Such decision (to force someone against his will to do/not do something) are made based on written rules/laws agreed on previously. Not a rocket science really.

 

[anonymoose_au]

Anna tested negative for COVID. How is that any different than Sofia?

Sofia's illness way back in September and it's clear it didn't cause an outbreak.

But that was luck, pure luck, they should have learnt from that.

This outbreak in my community that I keep talking about? It seems to have occurred because of lackluster quarantine regulations regarding aircrew and exemptions. Regulations that failed before, but were not addressed, now our state Government is claiming it was unforseen, when it clearly wasn't. It was only amazing luck that this didn't happen before. I see the same thing happening here except the Russian Figure Skating Fed haven't had such luck but continues to ignore it.

Doctors take hippocratic oaths to not do harm. That includes to others. Now, while he may have violated his oath, that's not on Anna.

There's a bizarre narrative going on here, either Anna is mature enough to make her own decisions and accept the consequences of those decisions or she isn't.

In this instance there are two:

1. She's now 3 time National Champion
2. She's getting called out for selfish and irresponsible behaviour

She doesn't get a pass just because everything worked out.

If I drive home drunk, but don't kill anyone, I'm still an irresponsible idiot for doing so.

ETA: And I can still be charged for doing it too! Even if I was on a deserted road before the cops showed up to breath test me, I can even be charged if they breath test me in my own driveway having got all the way home!

 

[chasingneverland]

I was upset at the time. But at least Sofia withdrew in the end.

I'm not sure why we're making excuses for the Russian Figure Skating Fed, my Christmas wish would be for the skaters of Russia to rise up and overthrow them.

Honestly they couldn't have messed up things more if they tried. I'm honestly expecting them to claim herd immunity next.

As for Anna, if she refused to withdraw she should have been withdrawn! It's not rocket science.

Now a dangerous precedent is set, no coach will EVER be able to withdraw their skater because 3 time National Champion Anna S didn't and triumphed.

If you thought Russian Ladies figure skating was a bloodbath before then it's about to become a literal one.

And when a young lady is terribly, horribly injured, crumbled on the ice...

How will we all feel then?

I agree Anna should have been withdrawn. But that's not on her. She wanted to compete. She's not the only one. There were discussions about Liza also almost withdrawing. She actually did have COVID earlier but she didn't withdraw here. (I assume she did test negative here as well.) However, the dangerous precedent was set not when Anna competed here but when Sofia competed at test skates. (Also the very culture is dangerous and that's not new: see Evgenia repeatedly and numerous before her.)

I actually argued before her FS that they should withdraw her. Very vehemently I might add (and met strong opposition haha). (For the record, I also argued the same for Sasha and Liza. I said they'd already said it was a "motivational camp" and that it wouldn't determine the national team/Worlds, so they should withdraw for their own health and that it wasn't worth it. (None of them were withdrawn.)

I don't think we're making excuses for the Fed. More arguing that they DID say so ahead of time so it's not exactly a surprise. I fully expected it. (In fact I had a post on here saying that they basically said they reserve the right to pick whoever regardless of RusNats - business as usual.) They have messed things up entirely. In fact, Russia as a whole has. (Their COVID tests are shockingly inaccurate.) The fact is the entire Russian Euros and World team got COVID, pneumonia, and/or were injured. It's also not the first time skaters have skated seriously injured/ill and continued to skate when they should be withdrawn (including with head injuries and even including juniors) and been hailed as heroes. (Not just in Russia either - US has some similar stories amongst other countries.) The culture is wrong. That's not on Anna though and that's not a dangerous precedent she established. It's, unfortunately, been well established before her. She's just the latest.

 

[Decoder]

And about a million of other causes. How many times I had fever in my life? Countless times. Was it covid? Not at all, naturally. OMG people stay sane, it looks like it's not in fact covid itself, but the paranoia it causes in people's minds that is more dangerous. Anna was tested for covid, the test was negative both when she had pneumonia and before the competition and that's all we need to know about the covid cause.

Sorry, you recently admitted "in RLT someone else becomes of me" or something like that and I think this is it, because this came too far. Fever means covid, respiratory problems mean covid, actually negative covit test still means ćovid.

I truly don't know why I'm wasting time wich such useless discussion, it's nearly 2 a.m. here, I go to bed.

Haha, you said something similar before about not wasting time on those nonsenses,
I am self-contradictory here. On one hand, I like to read your responses. On the other hand, I hope you can ignore them. Well, better not ignore anyone because you started this thread.

 

[Mathman]

Ludwig • Find your English sentence

I think that the term "definitive opinion" is used primarily in a leagal or quasi-legal context: "The Supreme Court issued a definitive opinion." The idea is that, although interpretations of law are "opinions" rather than facts, the body making the ruling has the authority to officially "define" what the interpretation will be.

I think it would be suspect to say that any old average Joe can issue a "definitive opinion." Though maybe a skater's doctor could.

 

[readernick]

Because this virus is hugely infectious, have you seen the stats out of the US? Out of the UK?

Yes the flu is a thing, but in a lot of countries right now, COVID has such a tight grip that yes, in fact it probably is more likely that it's that.

I had a fever yesterday actually, thankfully it's gone today. You know what I didn't do while I had it? Run around and possibly expose it to every damn person in my suburb.

It's common sense, although it seems the old saying is true: "For being common, common sense is incredibly uncommon."

But then I'm from a country willing to shut down the entire area I was in over 15 cases. Even then it has still grown to a cluster of 122.

But, Anna is 16 and shouldn't be required to do the responsible thing. The adults around her and particularly the RF are the blame. Feeling disappointed at Anna is not really appropriate in my opinion. She just showed how determined she is .. Frankly, every large FS event in Russia has probably become a super spreader event. That goes beyond what one determined 16 year old did. It is about the organization. RF and even the ISU who refused to intervene despite written complaints are to blame. Not lovely, determined, and reckless ( because what 16 year old isn't reckless) Anna.

 

[ali0125]

Let me put it this way. Goshov definitively said she had had COVID which means he did say it in an authoritative manner and using grammar implying he knew it for sure and that was his definitive opinion. Still, stayed short of substantiating his claim. So we do not know if she definitively had COVID. Neither do we know she definitively did not have it. It was his definitive opinion but there's a wide field left for doubts going both ways. None of us saw any test, either positive or negative. We are in no position to have any definitive opinion of our own in the matter. We are just the public, the audience, on the receiving end of opinions and statements made by others and in no position to investigate them ourselves. All we can say is that they are contradictory.
Now, I'm tired and let me just bow out of this very interesting discussion, thank you

I'm not surprised at all if it was/is COVID. Some people just want to win by any means at any costs it's a shame that the sport governing body was not doing anything to stop such behaviours, which in a way is encouraging crazier things to happen in future.

 

[chasingneverland]

Ludwig • Find your English sentence
definitive opinion - German translation – Linguee
definitive opinion - Dutch translation – Linguee

How many do you need?
Goodnight and please do not drag me into this endless discussion any more. Good night!

Don't engage then.

Definitive from Webster's English dictionary:
1. serving to provide a final solution or to end a situation
2. authoritative and apparently exhaustive

That is quite literally not the case here. There is nothing final or authoritative about his opinion or any speculation about Anna's COVID status. So, by definition, it is NOT definitive.

 

[chasingneverland]

I think that the term "definitive opinion" is used primarily in a legal or quasi-legal context: "The Supreme Court issued a definitive opinion." The idea is that, although interpretations of law are "opinions" rather than facts, the body making the ruling has the authority to officially "define" what the interpretation will be.

I think it would be suspect to say that any old average Joe can issue a "definitive opinion." Though maybe a skater's doctor could.

That's exactly why it's wrong to say a definitive opinion in this case. Thanks.

Really only her doctor could say that and he has from what we know diagnosed her with pneumonia not COVID.

 

[Magill]

I think that the term "definitive opinion" is used primarily in a leagal or quasi-legal context: "The Supreme Court issued a definitive opinion." The idea is that, although interpretations of law are "opinions" rather than facts, the body making the ruling has the authority to officially "define" what the interpretation will be.

I think it would be suspect to say that any old average Joe can issue a "definitive opinion." Though maybe a skater's doctor could.

"The rankings (Paris, New York, Sydney and Barcelona finish 1, 2, 3, 4) matter less than the strong, definitive opinions (Aleppo's souk "is the most vibrant and untouristy in the entire Middle East" and Shere Khan is the "best Indian restaurant on Curry Mile" in Manchester, England).
3" - quote from New York Times
"Bush seems to be a stronger man with more definitive opinions" - quote from New York Times
"As far as I'm concerned – and I'm sure you want my definitive opinion on this ... " - quote from The Guardian
All come from the link above.
NYT and The Guardian's journalists surely speak poor English and do not understand what they say

 

[anonymoose_au]

But, Anna is 16 and shouldn't be required to do the responsible thing. The adults around her and particularly the RF are the blame. Feeling disappointed at Anna is not really appropriate in my opinion. She just showed how determined she is .. Frankly, every large FS event in Russia has probably become a super spreader event. That goes beyond what one determined 16 year old did. It is about the organization. RF and even the ISU who refused to intervene despite written complaints are to blame. Not lovely, determined, and reckless ( because what 16 year old isn't reckless) Anna.

But at the same time, people were and are still claiming that Anna's old enough to make her own choices.

Which is it? It can't be both.

Unless you're here in which case Anna's a hero who fought through the impossible to win when it's positive comments.

But then when it's negative suddenly it's everyone's fault but hers.

 

[NadezhdaNadya]

I'm not surprised at all if it was/is COVID. Some people just want to win by any means at any costs it's a shame that the sport governing body was not doing anything to stop such behaviours, which in a way is encouraging crazier things to happen in future.

Of course she wants to win at any cost! If she did not, she would have improved her horrific technique! Her excessive pre-rotation, her wrong edges, her poor skating skills. But she does not care what is fair. I remember her English language interview after Skate America - she was so proud of herself and just oozing confidence! She said with so much pride that she landed two quad lutzes... Mikhail Kolyada, Boyang Jin, Nathan Chen and Yuzuru Hanyu are the ones who really do land quad lutzes. Quad lutzes with minimal pre-rotation and with 3.75 revolutions in the air. Unlike Anna... Why they bother to have textbook technique if someone like Anna gets 5 GOE for "quad lutz". Does Anna realizes that Alyona and Rika have much better technique than her!!!

 

[chasingneverland]

Sofia's illness way back in September and it's clear it didn't cause an outbreak.

But that was luck, pure luck, they should have learnt from that.

This outbreak in my community that I keep talking about? It seems to have occurred because of lackluster quarantine regulations regarding aircrew and exemptions. Regulations that failed before, but were not addressed, now our state Government is claiming it was unforseen, when it clearly wasn't. It was only amazing luck that this didn't happen before. I see the same thing happening here except the Russian Figure Skating Fed haven't had such luck but continues to ignore it.


There's a bizarre narrative going on here, either Anna is mature enough to make her own decisions and accept the consequences of those decisions or she isn't.

In this instance there are two:

1. She's now 3 time National Champion
2. She's getting called out for selfish and irresponsible behaviour

She doesn't get a pass just because everything worked out.

If I drive home drunk, but don't kill anyone, I'm still an irresponsible idiot for doing so.

ETA: And I can still be charged for doing it too! Even if I was on a deserted road before the cops showed up to breath test me, I can even be charged if they breath test me in my own driveway having got all the way home!

1. We don't actually know that Anna will cause an outbreak. We don't even know she's contagious. In fact, I might actually assume she isn't because she's had these fevers (at night) since November (by her own admission) and Alina, Kamila, Daria, Maiia, and Morisi, etc. (all of whom she trains with) all seem fine. She has a doctor who was there the entire time (according to Ted) consulting her. He's the one who took an Oath to do no harm. That includes to other skaters/people. He's the one that's accountable. Not a 16 year old Anna without a medical degree who has only been diagnosed with pneumonia.

2. Anna is a 16 year old girl and a minor - yes, even in Russia she's a minor. She is legally not even required to make her own decisions. That's on her doctors/parents/coaches. (I would assume you're an adult and therefore legally responsible for your own actions/decisions.)

3. Insulting Anna's intelligence is quite frankly wrong.
Here's the information she has:
(1.) She tested negative for COVID. That's the only disease that there is concern for widespread infection at least from RusFed and all other perspectives, particularly those in a position of authority over her.
(2.) Having tested negative she would assume she can't pass it on.
(3.) She's a 16 year old figure skater who wants to win and doesn't view a fever and inability to breathe as a limiting factor.
(For that matter neither did an 18 year old Sofia (fever), a 17 year old Aliona (she also struggled to breathe through her routines (with a prior positive COVID test) and Plushy pulled her - she herself was determined to compete), or for that matter a 24 year old Liza (who also is clearly still not well at RusNats (with a prior positive COVID test) and barely got through her skate).
(For comparison, a 16 year old Sasha also was determined to skate through a "serious injury" that required injections to get through.)