2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[Draculus]

These girls risked their health for a competition that except for one was ultimately pointless. This wasn't the Olympics, or Worlds, or even Euros or GPF.

Hmm, that's interesting. Risking health for Worlds is ok, but risking health for Nationals is not, am I getting you right?

 

[anonymoose_au]

there is a worlds this year I don't think of Sasha has anything more to prove. They have to take someone capable of scoring 240 or more.

But in the meantime Sasha is left hanging...I wonder, in the short-term adrenaline is very good...long term it is damaging. If I was Sasha not knowing if I'll have that spot - especially if I decided not to go to the competitions in the belief they'll pick me anyway - would cause me actual physical pain, just from the stress and uncertainty. If I had an actual injury on top of that? It would be like torture.

Sasha is no doubt stronger than me mentally, but it will still be on her mind. What a lovely Christmas present!! The Russian Figure Skating Fed is so thoughtful!

As for going virtual? Well that's the ISU being their typically idiotic Luddite selves. To make virtual Worlds happen arrangements need to start now, but no, they're waiting to see if it can be held in COVID ravaged Sweden.

Actual footage of the ISU right now:

https://makeagif.com/i/eNmdoT

 

[Mathman]

OMG! He is so lovely

Is he a man of courageous principle and steadfast conviction? Is he kind to his mother? Does he like dogs and small children?

 

[chasingneverland]

While Aliona will feel like she was robbed, and in a direct contradiction to claims here regarding how only Anna could withdraw herself, she was withdrawn by Plushy, she wanted to go.

So guess who's she's gonna blame? (But hey for most you that's a big old bonus.)

I DID say that Aliona wanted to compete at RusNats (and that she was withdrawn by Plushy because of her doctors - and she still wanted to fight through). I actually used her as an example to defend Anna.

I really hope she doesn't blame Plushy. I think he made the right call there. (And didn't make the right call for Sasha btw.)

(That doesn't mean what Anna and Sasha did that night wasn't amazing and beautiful. It just never should have happened.)

 

[anonymoose_au]

Hmm, that's interesting. Risking health for Worlds is ok, but risking health for Nationals is not, am I getting you right?

It's a matter of priorities, yes. The Worlds is actually an event that matters, with prize money.

Me taking on a person twice my size for the Hell of it = Suicidal

Me taking on a person twice my size for a million dollars = Still dumb, but at least understandable.

Nice of you to miss the point and not give a damn about those Sherpas, but hey none of us knew them so who gives a toss.

 

[chasingneverland]

Liza was at 3rd and 4th stages and couldn't withdraw from fifth stage.

Oops sorry. I might have messed up there. That's the one I couldn't find an article on but took that info from another site as I can't read Russian.

Regardless, according to her own socials, she DID break her leg so the injury still stands which was the point.

 

[anonymoose_au]

I really hope she doesn't blame Plushy

You can hope that and I can hope that. But why shouldn't she? It was fine for Anna, are you suggesting Aliona isn't as stong as Anna - I don't actually believe this, but judging by some people's rhetoric here, you should always skate, always.

Plushy's not just a fake coach and horrible human being, he's also a career ruiner! Maybe he should be stripped of his citizenship and drowned in an ice lake for his treachery. We could sell tickets!

 

[NadezhdaNadya]

Now you are being shallow! Is he a man of courageous principle and steadfast conviction? Is he kind to his mother? Does he like dogs and small children?

And what is your opinion, I wonder?
I am reading in Russian the love stories of Mishin and his wife and Moskvina and her husband.
Mishin is roughly 13 years older than his wife. She was his student since she was a teenager and he fell in love with her. She did not like him in the beginning so he had to woo her for several years. They married when she was 21-22. In 1976.
Moskvin was roughly 12 years older than his wife. She was his student since she was 15-16. They married when she was 22-23.

 

[chasingneverland]

Well, the key point is in your needless. Who is the judge? Who decides is risk calculated or not?
You deny Anna to be the judge here and give your opinion. Basically you are telling that you better than Anna know, what is needed for her, was the risk needless or not (without any data about her health).
if you aren't - then you would rather not judge her decision. But you do.

First of all, I have defended Anna here. I suggest you do some reading before jumping to judgements and conclusions - the same ones you seem to be urging others to take.

Second of all, I have argued (furiously) that Anna did nothing wrong here. And praised her (repeatedly) for her FS here.

Thirdly, it remains to be seen if it was a calculated risk. That's what I've argued. That's the whole point, that you are, repeatedly, missing. We still don't know the long-term outcomes of allowing her to skate. Same with Sasha, Liza, etc.

So we don't have all the information to make a decision on if it was a needless risk.

Here is what we do know:
1.She is a 16 year old girl. So her parents are still legally her guardians.
2. Before RusNats began we knew that RusNats would be viewed as a "motivational camp" and not the sole determining factor for the World's team - unlike most years. So withdrawal wouldn't be a nail in the coffin in her career. (In fact, of the 4 2020 Euros champions that Russia had, only B/K did NOT withdraw from RusNats 2021. Aliona, for example, had already withdrawn.)
3. She, at the very minimum, had a fever the day before her FS.
4. She had pneumonia.
5. And this is the most important one. By her OWN words, EVERYONE advised her to withdraw. This includes her parents (who are her legal guardians), her coaches, AND her doctor. And while, yes, you are right, that WE don't have any data about her health, they - parents, doctors, coaches - DO. In fact they have all of it and, even up to the 6 minute FS warm up, they STILL asked her to withdraw.

 

[Scott512]

But in the meantime Sasha is left hanging...I wonder, in the short-term adrenaline is very good...long term it is damaging. If I was Sasha not knowing if I'll have that spot - especially if I decided not to go to the competitions in the belief they'll pick me anyway - would cause me actual physical pain, just from the stress and uncertainty. If I had an actual injury on top of that? It would be like torture.

Sasha is no doubt stronger than me mentally, but it will still be on her mind. What a lovely Christmas present!! The Russian Figure Skating Fed is so thoughtful!

As for going virtual? Well that's the ISU being their typically idiotic Luddite selves. To make virtual Worlds happen arrangements need to start now, but no, they're waiting to see if it can be held in COVID ravaged Sweden.

Actual footage of the ISU right now:

https://makeagif.com/i/eNmdoT

Move worlds to Saint Petersburg or Sochi and build a bubble.

I hope sasha is not eating herself up worried about not making a worlds team that may not happen. Her not making the world steam would be the dumbest thing I've ever seen in figure skating and I've seen a lot of dumb things. Let's say Sasha will score of the turn 225 and 245 at a world championship no one else will besides Anna and Kamilla and Kamila aint gonna be there. Scores matter and the federation knows this just because they haven't officially named Saussure to the world senior doesn't mean anything bad for her.

 

[Draculus]

It's a matter of priorities, yes. The Worlds is actually an event that matters, with prize money.

Me taking on a person twice my size for the Hell of it = Suicidal

Me taking on a person twice my size for a million dollars = Still dumb, but at least understandable.

I see good base for your arguments.
So do you have something like following table so we can apply it to Anna?

Competition	Body temperature threshold justifies the risk
Nationals	37
Euro	37.7
World	38
Olympics	40

Nice of you to miss the point and not give a damn about those Sherpas, but hey none of us knew them so who gives a toss.

Sorry, bad analogy is like kitten with a trapdoor. Who are those Sherpas in FS world in your story?

 

[Scott512]

But in the meantime Sasha is left hanging...I wonder, in the short-term adrenaline is very good...long term it is damaging. If I was Sasha not knowing if I'll have that spot - especially if I decided not to go to the competitions in the belief they'll pick me anyway - would cause me actual physical pain, just from the stress and uncertainty. If I had an actual injury on top of that? It would be like torture.

Sasha is no doubt stronger than me mentally, but it will still be on her mind. What a lovely Christmas present!! The Russian Figure Skating Fed is so thoughtful!

As for going virtual? Well that's the ISU being their typically idiotic Luddite selves. To make virtual Worlds happen arrangements need to start now, but no, they're waiting to see if it can be held in COVID ravaged Sweden.

Actual footage of the ISU right now:

https://makeagif.com/i/eNmdoT

That video means you don't think much of the ISU. Neither do I.

Figure skating is a great sport but I fear it's still going to be a niche sport 5 or 10 years from now.

 

[chasingneverland]

Being "minor" in this case means you cannot vote, cannot be in the army and are limited in some business activities. But you can have sex without restrictions (even marry - though with some difficulties).
You are fully responsible for you action, can be criminally prosecuted, go to prison, etc.

Actually, according to Russian law, parents have the right and are under the duty to care for the health, physical, psychological, spiritual and moral development of their children. Parental responsibility ends when a child reaches the age of eighteen – the age of majority under Russian law (Art. 61 (2))

So, while at 16 Anna could be tried for committing a crime, you are tried differently when you're under the age of majority then when you're not.

 

[anonymoose_au]

I see good base for your arguments.
So do you have something like following table so we can apply it to Anna?

Competition	Body temperature threshold justifies the risk
Nationals	37
Euro	37.7
World	38
Olympics	40

Sorry, bad analogy is like kitten with a trapdoor. Who are those Sherpas in FS world in your story?

Yeah sure use the table.

Or Anna could have used the intelligence she's apparently famous for and not opened this can of worms.

Bravo Anna.

PS. There are no Sherpas in this scenario, because despite Plushenko proving you could withdraw a minor athlete against their wishes Eteri, her team and parents just pretended they couldn't do anything and are all equally negligent.

 

[chasingneverland]

What I find a bit disingenuous about this forum right now is that since Sochi the conversation about Russian ladies is that their careers are short, when Worlds was cancelled back in March people on here said things along the lines of 'it might have been Kostornaia/Trusova/Shcherbakova's only shot at a World championships' '1 of them likely never goes to Worlds', and now everyone seems to be shocked and alarmed that an athlete basically threw caution to the wind, ignored the potential for some negative long-term ramifications to her health and decided to compete. Some of the positive long-term benefits of what happened this past weekend: 1 thing we know for sure: Regardless of whether or not she ever steps foot on Olympic ice Shcherbakova has earned a place in Russian figure skating history that only 2 other women have accomplished and she did in a much more difficult time in Russian ladies figure skating. A possibility from her national title this past weekend: next year when it comes time for Olympic team selection the fact that she was able to win 3 consecutive national titles over top of most of the ladies who will also be vying for an Olympic team spot means she might have punched her ticket to the Olympics already and all she has to do next year is not completely meltdown.

Too many people are taking a binary approach at looking at things.

It isn't contradictory to acknowledge that Anna, Sasha, and Aliona may have lost their only guaranteed chance at a World championship title and may even not all make it to worlds, while still questioning whether it was a needed risk (especially as RusFed already said beforehand RusNats would NOT determine the team and other events would be taken into account). I actually made a post about Anna/Sasha/Aliona's career a couple days ago where I argued that Kamila has already proven she is capable of beating them (and she's not even a senior yet.) (Whether she does remains to be seen but that holds true for all four of them - and many other skaters.)

It's also not contradictory to acknowledge that and still say this decision and others wasn't necessarily the most responsible. In fact, I've argued strongly against just blaming Anna and pointed out numerous instances to explain that this wasn't an anomaly or an outlier and I refused to single her out for blame. However, I've also argued that the Fed should never have let any of this happen.

It also isn't contradictory to praise Anna (and Sasha) for that they did - which I still think is one of the most amazing, stunning, beautiful moments I've ever witnessed - and question why it was even allowed to happen in the first place.

It's also not contradictory to say while it may have paid off here it sets a very public and very dangerous example, although I refuse to say it's unprecedented. Everything Anna (and others) did here, had precedent that Anna herself would have seen play out. It's not contradictory to be happy it seemed to have worked out and that they had stunning skates here (and Anna is now 3x National Champion!! and was just simply magical and ethereal while Sasha skated the cleanest and loveliest program I've ever seen from her) and both did wonders to strengthen their claim to World's spots (with Anna already being named) and still question what the long term effects may be.

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

Regarding the reason Aliona didn't hug Sasha? I don't know and I'm honestly not interested to know. The reason people called her a diva? I don't know and I'm not interested to know.
I'm just not sure why you bring Aliona being called a diva into the conversation and how is that even relevant to this situation? Are you implying that Anna was the actual diva all along?
You're making some really harsh judgements about her character and accusing her of putting people's health at risk. But you don't seem to have any valid reasons to back up those claims.
Well according to sportesxpress, a reliable news source, Gorshov (or whatever his name is) said that not only was Anna tested negative for covid, but also was under the supervision of a medical team during the whole event. He clearly stated that SHE DIDN'T BREAK ANY RULES.
By the way, in Alberta Canada if a child has a fever, shortness of breath etc but is tested negative for covid, she is not considered a risk and not required to isolate by law. (Ontario has different rules).
So it's not just Rusfed rules. Even in some canadian provinces Anna in her current condition with or without a fever is considered a clear case, and no threat to people's health in terms of covid.
Just because you think so is not a good reason for calling her and her parents selfish irresponsible citizens who have put people's lives in danger. These are very serious accusations and just crossing the line.

Okay, I don't want to make this a Covid thread or be overly negative but first:
1. A negative Covid test isn't a 100% security that you don't have Covid.
2. As we've seen with previous reports, RusFed saying someone doesn't have Covid means literally nothing (*cough* Sinitsyna Katsalapov).

I didn't say she nor her parents were irresponsible, clearly you didn't read my actual post. I said the decision, and how the officials accepted her decision, was irresponsible. YOU SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO REFUSE A TEMPERATURE CHECK IN THE MIDDLE OF A PANDEMIC. She tested negative before, but she literally interacted with several skaters, and possibly others. Calling a decision irresponsible because it could have put people at risk is completely fine. There's a fine difference between "the child is not considered a risk and not required to isolate by law" and "put child in a rink full of people without masks". And Gorshov (or whatever his name is) saying she didn't break any RusFed rules is... a weak argument, have you seen RusFed's rules? Like, coaches not wearing masks correctly, no one social distancing, audiences sitting together... no one has come out and said: "No! That's against our rules!" I have never said anything about Anya being irresponsible, I think her team and the officials at this event are the ones that irresponsible. I totally understand why she did what she did, I don't understand why others didn't stop her.

 

[chasingneverland]

You can hope that and I can hope that. But why shouldn't she? It was fine for Anna, are you suggesting Aliona isn't as stong as Anna - I don't actually believe this, but judging by some people's rhetoric here, you should always skate, always.

Plushy's not just a fake coach and horrible human being, he's also a career ruiner! Maybe he should be stripped of his citizenship and drowned in an ice lake for his treachery. We could sell tickets!

No, I don't know why you always imply that people must be insinuating negative things about Aliona. I NEVER said nor suggested that. Please don't put words in my mouth.

First of all, just because it was fine for Anna (and Sasha), doesn't mean it was guaranteed to (and I would argue it barely was). In fact Anna's (and Sasha's) comments were ones of relief that they turned out to be "right" and everything turned out fine.

Second of all, it DIDN'T turn out fine for all of them. It didn't turn out fine for Liza. EDIT: I also don't think that means Liza is somehow less strong than them. That would be foolish. It was very obvious that Liza was giving everything she could (same as them.)

Finally, there's no guarantee just because it did for Anna and Sasha it means it would have for Aliona. And that has NOTHING to do with her strength, especially mental which I would argue was mostly what got them all (including Kamila and Daria) through their stunning, near-perfect skates. Remember, Aliona, only had about a week to get ready for RusNats and was off ice longer than any of the others leading into the season. She has been behind them all season long in terms of preparedness. (That's not shade on her - many of the factors were outside of her control and she did the best she could. It's just the way things played out.) So while all three (and Liza) had a setback - Aliona was probably less readily able to overcome it. That's NOT an indictment as to her mental strength. Also just because one CAN do something doesn't mean one SHOULD do something.

I actually think Plushy made the right call with Aliona.

(As a side note: you seem to be getting offended by perceived slights against Aliona and Plushy but you're the one that brought them into the discussion. You're also the only one who's mentioned Aliona's strength. No one else said that or even implied it. And for that matter, Plushy is also Sasha's coach and she's getting plenty of praise for her skate here.)

EDIT: For the record, I do think that if Aliona hadn't been withdrawn here, regardless of how the skate itself turned out, I think she would have performed/competed her heart out to the best of her abilities, like everyone else here. She is such a good competitor (see: her 3A's last season in spite of difficult practices.)

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

Plushy's not just a fake coach and horrible human being, he's also a career ruiner! Maybe he should be stripped of his citizenship and drowned in an ice lake for his treachery. We could sell tickets!

How can you write that while at Rostelecom Cup, Alena Kostornaia had three LESS weeks of training since her last 2+ weeks off-ice quarantine (and before that, she hadn't even recovered her previous level, though she was with TeamTutberidze, and believe me, I don't blame them for this, I have no clue as to the reason(s) Alena Kostornaia left, I just know she really felt an urge to leave), than her former teammates had at Test Skates? And on top of that she got one more two-week quarantine, and RusNats were a mere ten days after! And even health-wise she's not fully recovered!
We have absolutely no means to know if TeamPlushenko will be efficient with her at the moment. We just saw she was recovering satisfactorily her skating at 4th stage and Rostelecom.
Anna Shcherbakova was off-ice only five days, if I remember well, this is not the same at all, from all I can read.
Sorry if it was humour on your side, I confess I couldn't read the previous pages.

 

[anonymoose_au]

And for that matter, Plushy is also Sasha's coach and she's getting plenty of praise for her skate here.)

Oh didn't you get the memo? Any time Sasha does well? That's the magic of Eteri.

Any time she makes a mistake that's fake coach and literal human garbage Plushenko's doing. (Take a look at Insta, people there literally say it to his face when he posts anything to do with Sasha)

And I never said you thought that, I thought I made that clear, but you can't deny that by calling Anna brave and strong and right to fight
other posters are suggesting those who don't follow her example are not.

But it's a moot point anyway, Aliona can not blame Plushy all she wants, but there's probably hoardes out there who think Plushenko has ruined her career and will hate him for it. Even better it doesn't matter what he does, he'll always be wrong always!

Case in point:

Anna skating through the tail end of pneumonia - Such bravery!

Had she withdrawn - Oh thank goodness Eteri and team showed sense and kept her safe!

Sasha skating with an unspecified injury - Plushenko doesn't give a fig about her health, what a monster. He's so selfish and arrogant and an affront to human decency.

Had Sasha withdrawn - Plushenko is scared, he's a fraud and probably caused Sasha's injury with his incompetence, the Russian Figure Skating Fed should close him down!

I just figure I might as well type all this myself and cut out the middleman, I'm tired of getting hit in the face with Plushenko insults whenever I go on this board. Might as well make them myself, then I'm not surprised by them.

 

[Draculus]

First of all, I have defended Anna here. I suggest you do some reading before jumping to judgements and conclusions - the same ones you seem to be urging others to take.

If you were right in one case it does not mean that you are not wrong in others.

Thirdly, it remains to be seen if it was a calculated risk. That's what I've argued. That's the whole point, that you are, repeatedly, missing. We still don't know the long-term outcomes of allowing her to skate. Same with Sasha, Liza, etc.

And because all information (especially health condition) will never be fully open to public, it is possible for you to argue without limits, forever. There is always a place to "raise concern", always something is "to be seen". Never enough.
That's my point you are repeatedly missing.

So we don't have all the information to make a decision on if it was a needless risk.

Here is what we do know:
1.She is a 16 year old girl. So her parents are still legally her guardians.

I do not how about Australia, but in Russia parents cannot lock their 16 year old child at home, it's a crime.

2. Before RusNats began we knew that RusNats would be viewed as a "motivational camp" and not the sole determining factor for the World's team - unlike most years. So withdrawal wouldn't be a nail in the coffin in her career. (In fact, of the 4 2020 Euros champions that Russia had, only B/K did NOT withdraw from RusNats 2021. Aliona, for example, had already withdrawn.)

Anna thought differently (based on her interview prior to RusNat). For her it was very important to be there and not only because of Worlds.

3. She, at the very minimum, had a fever the day before her FS.

Do you have proof of that? It is really interesting where it comes from.
Well, I asked several times, checked multiply sources and was unable to find any proof of this. There is 1 very badly written article by rt-sport journalist where mentioned that "after pneumonia" she had a pattern of her body temperature raise to 38 at the evening for many days. Not during her Short, just "while recovering". And several articles that referenced rt-sport AND saying "that guy said she skated with 38", basically.

AND we have a clear statement from Gorshkov that Anna DID NOT skate with temperature, they had thermometers near rink.
So for me 3 is not "very minimum". If you can provide some credible source it would be nice.

She was not at her best form, it is obvious, she was lacking stamina. But still she finished her SP, did not fall, did not faint, nothing except "heavy breathing" that was gone after 5 min.

4. She had pneumonia.

That's the only point I can fully agree.

5. And this is the most important one. By her OWN words, EVERYONE advised her to withdraw. This includes her parents (who are her legal guardians), her coaches, AND her doctor. And while, yes, you are right, that WE don't have any data about her health, they - parents, doctors, coaches - DO. In fact they have all of it and, even up to the 6 minute FS warm up, they STILL asked her to withdraw.

And? It is her life, her decision. In an interview her mother told "it is important to allow children to make mistakes".
Everybody (probably you too) says that Anna is very intelligent and smart - so why do you not trust her?

Yes, all advised her to withdraw - but do you know why? I doubt that reason was "there is a a real risk you will never will be able to skate". In her interview (prior RusNat) answering reporter question "what if, may be better to withdraw?" she talks about "may be I do not finish program due to lack of stamina but I have to try". Eteri also talked about stamina.

That "risk" - "do not finish program due to lack of stamina" for me does not sounds too high. And for Anna too.