Judging Critiques/Continuation of Plushenko’s Allegations

[Scott512]

Interesting how Adelina beat Yulia many times at Russian Nationals and we never heard a peep out of Yulias coach and many people think Yulia should won one or two Nationals.

 

[Scott512]

Agree, Plushenko's always been like this - the big problem with the behavior now, he's a coach not a skater, and judges can be vindictive (they shouldn't be but....) so his mouthiness and outright accusations doesn't just potentially impact him now but his skaters as well.

Accusations of bribery and fraud will not go over well coming off a PED scandal that has ruined the reputation of Russian sports. Then you smear your own country's judges accusing them of this and that damaging the reputation of his own compatriots. If plushie doesn't care about this it will continue.

 

[anonymoose_au]

He can make his points to the Federation in a more productive manner.

That's true, although I wonder if that ever works

Like would the Russian Figure Skating Fed actually have any interest in changing their ways? It's not like they need to, they have an abundance of excellent skaters. If they wanted to, they could dump Aliona and Sasha and it would effect Russia's ability to get 3 spots by precisely 0%

As I see it the only way to make a change happen in this situation would be to embarrass the Fed.

Which I guess is a really dumb strategy, but YOLO.

 

[anonymoose_au]

Agree, Plushenko's always been like this - the big problem with the behavior now, he's a coach not a skater, and judges can be vindictive (they shouldn't be but....) so his mouthiness and outright accusations doesn't just potentially impact him now but his skaters as well.

Plushy would know all about judges vindictiveness, remember the Joe Inman email? It was basically and all-points bulletin to mark down Plushy and Brian Joubert the next time you see them!

It's not hard to imagine shady stuff like that could still be going on.

I'm a bit surprised though that so many here want Plushy to keep quiet because even if Daria and Anna have unclear Lutz edges, "Ssshhhh! We want them to get away with it."

How unfair is that?! For all skaters from all Feds big and small.

Obviously, I'm not silly enough to think Plushy would be happy to see Russian skaters getting dinged internationally, but I'm willing to see him suffer if it actually works.

 

[Scott512]

That's true, although I wonder if that ever works

Like would the Russian Figure Skating Fed actually have any interest in changing their ways? It's not like they need to, they have an abundance of excellent skaters. If they wanted to, they could dump Aliona and Sasha and it would effect Russia's ability to get 3 spots by precisely 0%

As I see it the only way to make a change happen in this situation would be to embarrass the Fed.

Which I guess is a really dumb strategy, but YOLO.

What's yolo?

I just think I this point it's doing more harm than good. Like you pointed out I actually thought of this earlier without writing it anywhere they could sit Sasha and alyona but that would almost never happen. There's less than 1% chance that that would ever happen certainly with KV not yet senior eligible internationally virtually no chance it happens.

I think sasha is safe no matter what Plushie says. She has never been a problem full she does is work and work and work and never say a dam thing.

Next year with KV joining Anna and sasha and having alyona in the wings you've got a really strong team again. An almost unbeatable team. I mean do you say what Canada and the United States has to offer as competition? Japan is deep and good. Korea has 1 or 2 girls but Russia should control things for the near future.

 

[anonymoose_au]

Russia should control things for the near future.

They should, in ladies especially, but they're already all so good, why let them off for poor technique on certain jumps? It's not a crime to have a wonky Lutz or flip, plenty of posters have pointed out that even if Anna did get a '!' she still would have won, so what's the big deal?

I mean I can see why a coach, any coach would be annoyed that their student is getting called left and right, but the others aren't. How do you motivate your skater to do better in that situation? "Look, I know so-and-so over there has a bad edge, but they only notice yours so we're going to have to take hours and hours out of your training time to fix it, even though that pretty much never works. Life sucks, get used to it."?

Sasha could devote a huge amount of time to fix her flip, but at what cost? She'd have way less time to develop in PCS and GOEs and ends up right back where she started "The jumping bean who can't do anything else."

Meanwhile Anna and Daria get time to improve their presentation and spins secure in the knowledge that they don't have to worry about unclear edges. So they look like beautiful artistes while Sasha has to slog away like a robot. Then if she wins people aren't pleased, they might think sure she deserved it, but our beautiful sport is the loser today.

What's yolo?

You only live once, it's probably old slang now but basically it's saying we've only got one shot so give it all you've got even if it's crazy.

 

[Scott512]

They should, in ladies especially, but they're already all so good, why let them off for poor technique on certain jumps? It's not a crime to have a wonky Lutz or flip, plenty of posters have pointed out that even if Anna did get a '!' she still would have won, so what's the big deal?

I mean I can see why a coach, any coach would be annoyed that their student is getting called left and right, but the others aren't. How do you motivate your skater to do better in that situation? "Look, I know so-and-so over there has a bad edge, but they only notice yours so we're going to have to take hours and hours out of your training time to fix it, even though that pretty much never works. Life sucks, get used to it."?

Sasha could devote a huge amount of time to fix her flip, but at what cost? She'd have way less time to develop in PCS and GOEs and ends up right back where she started "The jumping bean who can't do anything else."

Meanwhile Anna and Daria get improve their presentation and spins secure in the knowledge that they don't have to worry about unclear edges. So they look like beautiful artistes while Sasha has to slog away like a robot. Then if she wins people aren't pleased, they might think sure she deserved it, but our beautiful sport is the loser today.



You only live once, it's probably old slang now but basically it's saying we've only got one shot so give it all you've got even if it's crazy.

I agree.

So many rushing girls are good they should dominate for a long time. I don't know how long 3A will last but I certainly will enjoy them while we can.

Sasha has nothing to worry about she will be on the world team this year she will be on the Olympic team next year. It's alyona who is in more of a tough spot because she lost to her triple axel.

Getting better judges domestically or teaching them all to judge skaters the same way would eliminate a lot of the issues.

As I've said before internationally and domestically the judges should be turned over every 5 or 6 years.

But the same skaters get huge scores internationally that they do domestically so are you saying the judges who gave Anya huge scores internationally like last season need to be replaced too?

I this point it's really like a cat chasing its tail.

The judges should do better they should be taught better and they should have report cards from the ISU or countries federations because they should have to earn the right to keep their jobs as judges like everyone else does and societee whatever they do.

 

[Anoosheh]

That's true, although I wonder if that ever works

Like would the Russian Figure Skating Fed actually have any interest in changing their ways? It's not like they need to, they have an abundance of excellent skaters. If they wanted to, they could dump Aliona and Sasha and it would effect Russia's ability to get 3 spots by precisely 0%

As I see it the only way to make a change happen in this situation would be to embarrass the Fed.

Which I guess is a really dumb strategy, but YOLO.

No they can't easily dump Aliona, and they won't. Even if she doesn't get her triple axel back....
She just needs to be reallyyy clean, no underrotations and hit all those levels. But if she shows up again with stamina issues I don't think rusfed will be forgiving and will probably choose someone else over her.

Sasha is a different story.

 

[Amei]

Plushy would know all about judges vindictiveness, remember the Joe Inman email? It was basically and all-points bulletin to mark down Plushy and Brian Joubert the next time you see them!

It's not hard to imagine shady stuff like that could still be going on.

I'm a bit surprised though that so many here want Plushy to keep quiet because even if Daria and Anna have unclear Lutz edges, "Ssshhhh! We want them to get away with it."

How unfair is that?! For all skaters from all Feds big and small.

Obviously, I'm not silly enough to think Plushy would be happy to see Russian skaters getting dinged internationally, but I'm willing to see him suffer if it actually works.

Well my comment that you quoted wasn't actually in to reference Shcherbakova or Usacheva being dinged on edges, but his skaters seeing the vindictiveness of judges, especially the domestic judges. Though I will say I find it to be in poor taste for an active coach to comment the way he has; as Rodina said - there's a process if you have complaints. In regards to Shcherbakova and Usacheva's edges at Nationals, there are certainly some videos/stills that show them being on the questionable side (!) and I've seen videos that show Trusova's flip edge was worse than how it was called, however I don't know that the angles we've been shown for any of the in question edges has included the angle that judges get to use, where we can say that the judges deliberately ignored the unclear or wrong edge. Perhaps spewing what he's spewed in the media is the way Plushenko feels the Fed will listen to him, however that doesn't mean I (or anyone else) has to agree with the manner in which he is going about it. *I also think that he needs to make sure that what he does spew in the media is accurate, there have been a couple of instances in these threads discussing things he's said where people have pointed out that what he's said is at best an exaggeration or at worst a outright lie.

 

[Amei]

No they can't easily dump Aliona, and they won't. Even if she doesn't get her triple axel back....
She just needs to be reallyyy clean, no underrotations and hit all those levels. But if she shows up again with stamina issues I don't think rusfed will be forgiving and will probably choose someone else over her.

Sasha is a different story.

Out of curiosity and slightly off-topic, why do you think that Kostornaia is somewhat untouchable? Sure she's got excellent PCS but PCS isn't that hard to grow, for instance last year Kostornaia in the GPF had almost 1.5 points in PCS over Shcherbakova in the SP and over 4 points in the FS, by the European Championships she scored less than 1 point over Shcherbakova in the SP and less than 1.5 points in the FS (and Shcherbakova was messier than Kostornaia in the FS at that event). And in TES she's not exactly getting huge scores or doing things that are untouchable.

 

[Scott512]

Well my comment that you quoted wasn't actually i to reference Shcherbakova or Usacheva being dinged on edges, but his skaters seeing the vindictiveness of judges, especially the domestic judges. Though I will say I find it to be in poor taste for an active coach to comment the way he has; as Rodina said - there's a process if you have complaints. In regards to Shcherbakova and Usacheva's edges at Nationals, there are certainly some videos/stills that show them being on the questionable side (!) and I've seen videos that show Trusova's flip edge was worse than how it was called, however I don't know that the angles we've been shown for any of the in question edges has included the angle that judges get to use, where we can say that the judges deliberately ignored the unclear or wrong edge. Perhaps spewing what he's spewed in the media is the way Plushenko feels the Fed will listen to him, however that doesn't mean I (or anyone else) has to agree with the manner in which he is going about it. *I also think that he needs to make sure that what he does spew in the media is accurate, there have been a couple of instances in these threads discussing things he's said where people have pointed out that what he's said is at best an exaggeration or at worst a outright lreat post. Fair points all the way around.

Your last sentence was the best point.

No they can't easily dump Aliona, and they won't. Even if she doesn't get her triple axel back....
She just needs to be reallyyy clean, no underrotations and hit all those levels. But if she shows up again with stamina issues I don't think rusfed will be forgiving and will probably choose someone else over her.

Sasha is a different story.

Sasha is safe. Because she can always score 230 to 240 points internationally. I also feel alyona can still make worlds this year but she needs to look good in the Russian cup final. Judges are very fond of her skating because it's so beautiful and so clean so she always has that advantage..

 

[FelineFairy]

Pardon for going off-topic (I like ballet very much, not so interested in skating judging problems ).
I think it's better to say that Mariinsky has the most 'pure/classical' technique - Bolshoi technique isn't inferior, but they are more open to adapting technique to neoclassical/contemporary dance and absorbing foreign influence when it's helpful.

Because of its traditional heritage, the Mariinsky's strength is in Petipa classics like Swan Lake or Sleeping Beauty. For theatrical and/or modern productions like Flames of Paris (or the Soviet-era ballets like Spartacus), Bolshoi is better. Even the theatre size affects the company style - the Bolshoi stage gives dancers more room to travel but requires more audience projection, resulting in boldness and drama compared to the Mariinsky's more intimate and refined style.

Zakharova and Lopatkina both trained at Vaganova (Mariinsky feeder school) so their technical foundations are similar. However, I also like many ballerinas who were trained at the Bolshoi Academy (Krysanova, Alexandrova, Osipova, Ananiashvili from bygone years). They tend to have strong jumps and turns and great acting skills. Zakharova, Merkuriev, Obraztsova etc. transferred between/worked in both companies and in recent years the Bolshoi has taken in more Vaganova students (e.g. Olga Smirnova) so this traditional Petersburg vs Moscow distinction is blurring a bit.

My teacher (Soviet-trained) thinks the Bolshoi male dancers are better than the Mariinsky ones and I have to agree. The current roster of Mariinsky principals has some great technical ballerinas (Tereshkina, Kondaurova, Somova, Novikova) but their men are so-so except for Kimin Kim (and Leonid Sarafanov who ran off to Mikhailovsky...) The good guys are retired

Anyway, in summary I'm glad ballet isn't a sport and we don't have to pick between two great companies. Okey dokey guys, have fun discussing Plushy's media scandals

Don't you like Xander Parish? But anyway, thank you for this interesting post. Would love to talk about it with you one day, if you get the wish, please write. I love ballet, too.

 

[Anoosheh]

Out of curiosity and slightly off-topic, why do you think that Kostornaia is somewhat untouchable? Sure she's got excellent PCS but PCS isn't that hard to grow, for instance last year Kostornaia in the GPF had almost 1.5 points in PCS over Shcherbakova in the SP and over 4 points in the FS, by the European Championships she scored less than 1 point over Shcherbakova in the SP and less than 1.5 points in the FS (and Shcherbakova was messier than Kostornaia in the FS at that event). And in TES she's not exactly getting huge scores or doing things that are untouchable.

Yes I don't think she's untouchable, she's actually very much beatable (with or without 3A).
She was already getting Hanyu level PCS and GOEs last year, so even if she gets her 3A back, she can't get much higher scores than she was getting last season.... and that is really no longer enough to make her competitive with the top ladies.

However, isn't Aliona (if clean) a better choice than Liza ? If she delivers what she's capable of, she can beat Liza.
Sasha is not as reliable as Aliona.
Maiia and Daria are good but not better than Aliona.... (Eteri girls usually do improve a lot, so who knows things can change by next year.)

Sasha is safe. Because she can always score 230 to 240 points internationally.

Yes but she's also capable of only scoring 198. She has inconsistency issues and that makes her spot unsafe.

 

[Scott512]

Yes I don't think she's untouchable, she's actually very much beatable (with or without 3A).
She was already getting Hanyu level PCS and GOEs last year, so even if she gets her 3A back, she can't get much higher scores than she was getting last season.... and that is really no longer enough to make her competitive with the top ladies.

However, isn't Aliona (if clean) a better choice than Liza ? If she delivers what she's capable of, she can beat Liza.
Sasha is not as reliable as Aliona.
Maiia and Daria are good but not better than Aliona.... (Eteri girls usually do improve a lot, so who knows things can change by next year.)



Yes but she's also capable of only scoring 198. She has inconsistency issues and that makes her spot unsafe.

198? Nyet. What happened in the Moscow GP was an aberration.. Sasha should not have skated in that event. Look at what she has scored internationally and domestically in the last 2 or 3 seasons. Big scores.

 

[Amei]

198? Nyet. What happened in the Moscow GP was an aberration.. Sasha should not have skated in that event. Look at what she has scored internationally and domestically in the last 2 or 3 seasons. Big scores.

Well I know everyone seems to love to pretend that Trusova's meltdown at Rostelecom was an anomaly and that she didn't have some really bad skates last year as well, but she did and if the Fed is ticked at Plushenko's antics they certainly have the ammunition to leave off Trusova if they wanted to.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

Don't you like Xander Parish? But anyway, thank you for this interesting post. Would love to talk about it with you one day, if you get the wish, please write. I love ballet, too.

Gosh, how did I forget about Xander! I saw him live in Giselle once. He has gorgeous lines and feet

 

[Scott512]

Well I know everyone seems to love to pretend that Trusova's meltdown at Rostelecom was an anomaly and that she didn't have some really bad skates last year as well, but she did and if the Fed is ticked at Plushenko's antics they certainly have the ammunition to leave off Trusova if they wanted to.

Leave her off for who?

Anna and Sasha certainly can go 1 and 2 or at least make the podium out of Worlds this year. No Sasha and you have only one on the podium unless aliona finds her form.

Plushies antics should not be used against Sasha. She practices hard she skates Hardin competitions and she reaches for the Moon.

 

[rollerblade]

In regards to Shcherbakova and Usacheva's edges at Nationals, there are certainly some videos/stills that show them being on the questionable side (!) and I've seen videos that show Trusova's flip edge was worse than how it was called, however I don't know that the angles we've been shown for any of the in question edges has included the angle that judges get to use, where we can say that the judges deliberately ignored the unclear or wrong edge.

Find out where the cameras are, and tailor the layout accordingly for those "questionable" jumps. If they can't fix the edge problems in time, clever positioning may turn those "e" into "!" and "!" into no calls. xD

 

[anonymoose_au]

Find out where the cameras are, and tailor the layout accordingly for those "questionable" jumps. If they can't fix the edge problems in time, clever positioning may turn those "e" into "!" and "!" into no calls. xD

Actually they interviewed a judge in Russia about this whole thing and that's basically what he said to do Apparently this is a well-known thing, but I was kind of shocked. Like if I was a tech controller I'd be more inclined to focus on those jumps knowing sheningans could be afoot.

I must say though I always love it when a skater does an epic jump right in front of the judges it looks so cool and is if they're saying. "Yeeeah, check this out!" (when they don't fall down of course...)

 

[Giltedge]

I think people should find their sippers and sink into a comfy couch with a cup of tea. The selectors are bright enough to recognise the difference between Yevgeny Plushchenko and Alexandra Trusova and sensible enough not to hold one's antics against the other.