Nathan Chen | Page 963 | Golden Skate

Nathan Chen

Sometimes I need to check myself whether I am too biased on my awe of Nathan, but for some reason, I just do not find the feedback and commentary of Dave Lease and Jonathan Beyer to be all that objective of Nathan. Perhaps this was already discussed in this forum or in others, but has anyone found their criticism of Nathan to be objective? Alternatively, are there other skating recap channels on Youtube you find to be more objective?
I often find myself thinking, that there's a discrepancy between what a majority of figure skating fans are looking for and enjoying in a program, and what at least a certain portion of Nathan's fans like. Or maybe it is just me, ha. I think many of Nathan's fans don't enjoy overly pompous gestures and over-acting, or too many arm flourishes that don't look organic or natural. What others celebrate as great performance chops will sometimes even look cheesy or overly dramatic to me and doesn't feel genuine, to the point where I can't take it seriously. But I've never been a fan of musicals and the like, so maybe also plays a part in it, it's just not the type of entertainment/performance that speaks to me.

Nathan also doesn't have that classic posture (shoulders back, butt sticking out) and I believe many skating fans find that unappealing, because he looks too 'jock-ish' and as if he's not in 'presentation mode' (or not enough).
Personally, this is actually one of the things that I love about Nathan, because it looks much more natural to me, and not like he's straining and striking a pose all throughout the program, because to me a 'good posture' always looks put on (although I admit that Nathan has a bad habit of pulling up his shoulders too much ;)).

But apart from all that, it can't be denied that he is extremely jump focused and that often takes away from the other beautiful qualities of his skating or movement vocabulary, and he rightfully gets called out for that (not recognising that he has those beautiful qualities is what bothers and perplexes me though).
 
I like that Nathan is starting to own what he wants and does not want to do, and his team can appreciate and supports his vision.
 
As for other commenters Justin Laem is pretty good. He's just a fan and doesn't pretend to be some expert or insider. Nevertheless he likes Nathan but also provides constructive criticism without being catty or vicious.
 
I often find myself thinking, that there's a discrepancy between what a majority of figure skating fans are looking for and enjoying in a program, and what at least a certain portion of Nathan's fans like. Or maybe it is just me, ha. I think many of Nathan's fans don't enjoy overly pompous gestures and over-acting, or too many arm flourishes that don't look organic or natural. What others celebrate as great performance chops will sometimes even look cheesy or overly dramatic to me and doesn't feel genuine, to the point where I can't take it seriously. But I've never been a fan of musicals and the like, so maybe also plays a part in it, it's just not the type of entertainment/performance that speaks to me.

Nathan also doesn't have that classic posture (shoulders back, butt sticking out) and I believe many skating fans find that unappealing, because he looks too 'jock-ish' and as if he's not in 'presentation mode' (or not enough).
Personally, this is actually one of the things that I love about Nathan, because it looks much more natural to me, and not like he's straining and striking a pose all throughout the program, because to me a 'good posture' always looks put on (although I admit that Nathan has a bad habit of pulling up his shoulders too much ;)).

But apart from all that, it can't be denied that he is extremely jump focused and that often takes away from the other beautiful qualities of his skating or movement vocabulary, and he rightfully gets called out for that (not recognising that he has those beautiful qualities is what bothers and perplexes me though).
I must say one of the things I love about Nathan is that he is not trying to be a Yuzuru :biggrin: That is exactly the reason which allows me to appreciate them both for what they are as they bring so different qualities and energies with them and still, they are both SOOOO great, so amazingly talented and enjoyable. I think some people have found it difficult in the beginning to deal with the fact that this young lad was taking away titles from the seemingly untouchable master but I hope by this time they have all learnt to appreciate them both. I also think the unquestionable and obviously sincere respect and admiration of Nathan for Yuzu adds to this and - again - allows us to appreciate them both and serves as a teaching to us all. I really respect Nathan for this. And I must say, apart from his amazing talent, he really seems to be such a nice and wise person indeed. Kudos! And it is really a pleasure to watch him develop and grow so beautifully! (And, shhh, I love his simple costumes! IMHO, they fit him well, just like the eleborate shirts do fit Yuzu... )
 
What others celebrate as great performance chops will sometimes even look cheesy or overly dramatic to me and doesn't feel genuine, to the point where I can't take it seriously. But I've never been a fan of musicals and the like, so maybe also plays a part in it, it's just not the type of entertainment/performance that speaks to me.

I consider myself a fan of musicals (as well as ballets, operas, and everything pompous and dramatic lol), yet I also wince at some of the so called "great performances" in figure skating. To me performers in the former category (musicals, ballets, operas etc) are trained to pull off dramatic acts with conviction, authenticity, and skills, whereas many figure skaters in their attempts to be flashy often look put upon and amateurish (if not out-right cringey) in comparison.

Sometimes I need to check myself whether I am too biased on my awe of Nathan, but for some reason, I just do not find the feedback and commentary of Dave Lease and Jonathan Beyer to be all that objective of Nathan. Perhaps this was already discussed in this forum or in others, but has anyone found their criticism of Nathan to be objective? Alternatively, are there other skating recap channels on Youtube you find to be more objective?
I often find TSL obnoxious and toxic in their commentary and their willingness to do everything for a scoop, so I try to stay as far away from them as possible. They also never get Nathan - they seem to be only able to appreciate the more traditional type of skater. Figure skating being a subjective sport, it's almost impossible to find objective channels, but I do occasionally enjoy listening to Flutzes and Waxels and Ice Tea podcast (used to listen to Ice Talk as well but haven't checked them out after host change). Don't think they're on youtube though.
 
I must be the only who really liked the costume lmao 😂 thought it had this artsy minimalist flair that worked really well with the program. And I think it really enhanced his lines and adds more flow to his skating which really helps with this program (I’ve also been waiting forever for a costume that doesn’t swallow his neck). It’s much closer to what I would envision for this program than the generic blue blouse from SA - now THAT’s from a
middle age woman’s wardrobe.
While I didn't like the fit of the FS costume, I agree it worked better with the program than the generic blue blouse since it had a dystopian sci-fi feel to it.

As for other commenters Justin Laem is pretty good. He's just a fan and doesn't pretend to be some expert or insider. Nevertheless he likes Nathan but also provides constructive criticism without being catty or vicious.
I sometimes watch Justin Laem but his videos can get frustrating since his level of technical knowledge is "regular fan" and he's usually not updated on the skating news, even those covered in the USFS PR articles. Like they kept mentioning that Jimmy Ma trained in Texas even if he has new coaches this season and has also moved to Boston.

TSL doesn't like Nathan and never has. They don't like anything he does and downplay everything while constantly saying other people can beat him. And no, they aren't objective or interested in that. They have their favorites and everything else is just drama for them. They said Alysa should not go to nationals so she wouldn't embarrass herself and it was too late for her to ever fix anything (at the old age of 15), basically calling her a lost cause, and we all saw how well she did.
I watch TSL because at least they're more knowledgeable about skating news and technical stuff, and there's not much else out there in terms of skating conversation. I find it funny though that they deem themselves experts when they're really a couple of very knowledgeable fans, so I take what they put out as opinions, FS fans will always have favorites and biases. They have a very specific aesthetic, very 6.0, and can't appreciate that trends have moved. Like it or not, Nathan is the current trendsetter. Many of the up and coming skaters seem inspired by his programs and even his (non) costumes. I also think we have different preferences; I could not understand why Dave could not appreciate Nathan's Chopin program, it was a good thing Jenny Kirk was still around then to set him straight. His current co-host is not as expert as Jenny and can't provide that counter perspective.

Nathan is also very versatile, his posture changes with each program unlike most skaters (even other top elites). I've seen comments about his raised shoulders; I found it appropriate since he appears to be skating a paso doble and/or flamenco. This shortened season is actually the best time to experiment. I also don't think Nathan would have the energy to do a fast dance in the FS given the tech that he is attempting for the first time; maybe next season when he is more comfortable with the backloaded quad combinations. I also find it laughable that TSL was previously pushing him towards Lori when it has been implied in interviews that he was not very comfortable working with her.

TSL is not terribly interested in providing serious commentary, particularly when it comes to men's skating. Like for ex in one episode they seemed to have the notion that Kolyada with his two 4Ts will challenge nathan because they like his programs more.
TSL seems to have no appreciation about the technical nitty gritty of elite training. Like there was one episode where they were bitching about Nathan's variable layouts without appreciating that he was building up to a desired layout since difficulty has to be gradually built up in the course of the season.

I was very nervous about Nathan's performance because he seemed tight this competition. He seemed more relaxed when he had Yale to give him context, this was giving me Olympic season vibes. But maybe it's also because he's increasing technical difficulty to a level he has not done before (backloading a flip combination in the SP, backloading 2 quad combinations in the FS). While we are used to his jumps being cleaner, I guess it was still a win considering that there was no crowd to give him a boost and he was mostly clean. His score would probably be higher with a simpler but cleaner layout but he needs to start building up the difficulty for future competitions.
 
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TSL seems to have no appreciation about the technical nitty gritty of elite training. Like there was one episode where they were bitching about Nathan's variable layouts without appreciating that he was building up to a desired layout since difficulty has to be gradually built up in the course of the season.
I was originally surprised that a lot of figure skating fans don't seem to understand this. The concepts of peaking and periodization are widely known amongst fans of most other sports, yet they somehow hardly ever get discussed by FS fans.

I was very nervous about Nathan's performance because he seemed tight this competition. He seemed more relaxed when he had Yale to give him context, this was giving me Olympic season vibes. But maybe it's also because he's increasing technical difficulty to a level he has not done before (backloading a flip combination in the SP, backloading 2 quad combinations in the FS). While we are used to his jumps being cleaner, I guess it was still a win considering that there was no crowd to give him a boost and he was mostly clean. His score would probably be higher with a simpler but cleaner layout but he needs to start building up the difficulty for future competitions.

I agree about the tightness and still think it was at least partially due to the fivepeat hype. USFS and the media made an awfully big deal out of it--they actually prerecorded a message from previous men's champs congratulating him for his accomplishment which they played before his gala performance. Hopefully he wasn't aware of that!


Japanese broadcast of the medal ceremony along with translation of the commentary


Nathan in the Biden inaugural parade promo
 
Nathan an exceptional athlete. His achievements in sport combined with academics are simply inspirational. I hope a lot of kids take him as an example in US and not only.
 
Prerecording congrats before the event is a bit much. Vincent did really well and who knows what could have happened if he actually landed his 4lz and 4F and Nathan had a few more mistakes (like the 3A at the end that has given him trouble). I do wonder if US nationals a bit more pressure than international events. Losing to Yuzu wouldn't be something shocking to happen and could happen pretty easily and nobody is going to fault him for that, but at nationals he's expected to win big.
 
There seems to be lots of hate going on about Nathan's FS (especially the step sequence) on twitter. Is it always like this? And how accurate is what they are saying?

Oh my, that's a can of worms that you don't want to open...

Let it suffice to say that there are people, many of whom are on twitter, who would hate Nathan no matter what what he says or what he does. Since I choose to ignore these people I can't tell you how accurate they are, but I can give my humble opinion that he has the most subtly expressive sequence in men's FS this season :wink:

I've also heard a lot of complaints about over-scoring. Granted that US Nationals are notoriously inflated, but 1) everyone is inflated, so as long as you compare within the same competition Nathan is not uniquely advantaged against the rest of the field; 2) the judges at this particular men's FS event were actually pretty stringent. I mean, I still don't understand how this 4F3T combo is only getting a GOE of +3.3...

https://twitter.com/NBCOlympics/status/1350935932971720709?s=20
 
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There seems to be lots of hate going on about Nathan's FS (especially the step sequence) on twitter. Is it always like this? And how accurate is what they are saying?
Really, the step sequence?? That's a first, care to elaborate? (or maybe it's his choreo sequence they have in mind?)

I mean, they often pick apart his elements technically and I've seen many times self-proclaimed experts claim that he not only messed up a step, but didn't even do certain steps in his step sequences to deserve the level 3-4 that he got (meanwhile those steps were clearly there for anyone with functioning eyes to see, so it's more than hilarious for them to be this desperate to disparage him).

But apart from that, yes there's always insane hate on Nathan, not only his skating but also him as a person, especially on Twitter but also elsewhere. It's reallys soured not only Nathan's skating for me, which I used to enjoy 'innocently' without picking it apart via the ISU rulebook, because it simply looked the most pleasing and beautiful to me out of all the skaters (those were the times, sigh). But it has also made it impossible for me to enjoy other skaters, especially Yuzu (obviously). I guess it's my own fault for not being able to stay away from the internet, I seem to be masochistic that way. :rolleyes:
 
I was very nervous about Nathan's performance because he seemed tight this competition. He seemed more relaxed when he had Yale to give him context, this was giving me Olympic season vibes.

I agree, the four times he performed a program at a major competition this season he seemed pretty tight, and I'm worried that Olys pressure (or skating-is-the-only-thing-in-my-life pressure) is eating at him again. Well, at least now he is vastly more consistent than back then so that's reassuring. On the other hand, the dip in performance quality after program debuts is giving me deja-vu vibes...
 
There seems to be lots of hate going on about Nathan's FS (especially the step sequence) on twitter. Is it always like this? And how accurate is what they are saying?
I’ve learned to ignore Twitter all together. It’s the source of so much unnecessary drama and meanness in every aspect of life. Sometimes I think the world would be a better place if Twitter didn’t exist.
 
I mean, I still don't understand how this 4F3T combo is only getting a GOE of +3.3...
Not that I think judges really look at and apply those 6 bullets for positive GOE thoroughly, but if we base our argument on those bullets, than Nathan didn't really hit that many of them. +3 seems fine depending on what measure a judge applies, I might even go lower if I wanted to be strict.
One thing this FS is lacking for me, is the placement of the jumps on the music, because that's one positive bullet right there, that a skater will get, even when the jump itself didn't have the best quality. As much as I hated Rocketman, the jump placement was better thought out for sure and made for a more effective program in terms of having those jump landings that felt more satisfying.

I agree, the four times he performed a program at a major competition this season he seemed pretty tight, and I'm worried that Olys pressure (or skating-is-the-only-thing-in-my-life pressure) is eating at him again. Well, at least now he is vastly more consistent than back then so that's reassuring. On the other hand, the dip in performance quality after program debuts is giving me deja-vu vibes...
Absolutely, I was gonna say the same thing, it makes me really worry for next season (or whenever and if Olys take place).
I don't care about him landing the jumps per se, I mean I do, because I want him to be happy with his performance and because messy jumps don't look nice, but what's more important is that he doesn't tense up so much during his programs, and sadly this is what happens when the jumps don't go well. I remember when I fell in love with his skating, it was the first half of the 2017/18 season and though his performances were rather sloppy jump-wise, his movement was so free and almost wild. But then Nationals happened and suddenly his body language was so much stiffer and cautious when he delivered his programs.
I guess this is true for every skater to some extent (which is why videos of practice sessions are so valuable), but since I follow Nathan so closely, it's particularly noticeable for me in his case.

For this season, his ISP skates + his SP at Skate America are my favourites so far.
 
I don't know if I'm too worried at this point. Practices at Nats seemed ok for the most part; he just made some mistakes in competition. That's fairly typical for him in the early part of the season. I remember he was amazing at 2018 GPF practice but didn't really put it together until 2019 Nats. With the season so bizarre on so many fronts I'm cutting everyone a little slack.
 
Not that I think judges really look at and apply those 6 bullets for positive GOE thoroughly
Ditto :p

This scares me?
Again, his tech is so much more stable now than they used to be so he might be a little bit more confident of himself. His jumps used to be all over the place during OPs, no wonder he didn't just his own ability. Also, I feel he looks more often nervous/cautious than relaxed in competitions in general, pre or post Olys, and there have only been a handful of situations that bring out that confident fire in him.
 
It seems as if it's more than just the jumps "missing" though... He looks kind of different in general. Maybe even sad to some extend?
In a normal year at Nats he'd be hanging out with his pals but this year everyone is mostly isolated from each other, so I can see how that could be depressing. Mariah hasn't seen Romain in forever so I wonder if that affected her performance this year.
 
There seems to be lots of hate going on about Nathan's FS (especially the step sequence) on twitter. Is it always like this? And how accurate is what they are saying?
Yeah, can of worms but some people just don't like anything he says or does for various reasons you can probably guess. It's not accurate, it's just bitterness. Jackie also really praised his step sequence which probably annoyed some people.

Fans of other skaters obsessing about nationals scoring that mean nothing is something else. :coffee:
 
One thing this FS is lacking for me, is the placement of the jumps on the music, because that's one positive bullet right there, that a skater will get, even when the jump itself didn't have the best quality. As much as I hated Rocketman, the jump placement was better thought out for sure and made for a more effective program in terms of having those jump landings that felt more satisfying.

I agree, MFD has a knack at weaving those jumps into the music. However watching nationals I realized for the first time that his 4T3T and 3A could be landed on the music, which was...somewhat satisfying? Especially given that I almost stopped breathing out of nervousness at that point.

A peeve I have about his SP is that he took out the spread eagle exit of his 3A and placed it in the entry instead (he probably wanted to do both, but gave up doing the exit in the competition due to lack of stability/nervousness). I loved it in ISP1 when he landed the 3A on a strum of the guitar and hit the spread eagle on another strum.
 
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