2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[NadezhdaNadya]

Well, sure. I'm just saying, that tends to be the justification for ladies a lot of it is more lenient, like no calls when there could be !, or ! when there could be e, etc. Like I said, I don't think it'd be a very big deal for Anna to have to be given -1 GOE for ! every once in a while.


More importantly. Amazing flexibility + totally unquestionable Lutz / Flip edges? Well that'd be Veronika Zhilina, look for her in JGP next season. She has triple axel and 3 different quads. For now.

Agree about Veronika. She is flexible and so are Yulia, Anna and Kamila, but she unlike them has textbook technique and minimal pre-rotation!
However, I must admit I do not care much about flexibility. Yuna Kim was not very flexible yet she is the greatest ever. Is Carolina Kostner very flexible? I do not think so. Normal flexibility is fine and OK. This after all is figure skating and not gymnastics.
It is better for the skaters to work towards achieving minimal pre-rotation than to work towards achieving extreme flexibility.
And there are such cases like Sasha and Elizaveta, rather exceptions, where the problem with flexibility seems to be big. They are not normally flexible, no - they look stiff most of the time, maybe that is why Elizaveta rarely gets high scores and Sasha had so many third places.

 

[Mathman]

Yuzuru Hanyu on quad lutz pre-rotation:
"Of course, the 4Lz is very difficult, but it's possible that everyone may be able to jump it, if they want to. It also depends on the type of skater. In my case, no matter how hard I practice, I can't pre-rotate it. It wasn't taught that way when I was young. Gradually, the 4Lz might stop being a lutz jump."

I think Yuzuru Hanyu hit the nail on the head. Back in the day, Lutz jumps could not be pre-rotated because of the technique that skaters were taught, involving the counter-rotation. Think about it. If you are rotating on the ice in the wrong direction, how can you simultaneously be pre-rotating in the right direction?

Nowadays the modern wiggly-wobbly edge technique makes pre-rotation possible, but at the expense of the uniqueness of the true classic Lutz jump.

 

[Amei]

More importantly. Amazing flexibility + totally unquestionable Lutz / Flip edges? Well that'd be Veronika Zhilina, look for her in JGP next season. She has triple axel and 3 different quads. For now.

How many of those has she actually landed in competition and how many are just done in shows/practice?

 

[Blades of Passion]

I think Yuzuru Hanyu hit the nail on the head. Back in the day, Lutz jumps could not be pre-rotated because of the technique that skaters were taught, involving the counter-rotation. Think about it. If you are rotating on the ice in the wrong direction, how can you simultaneously be pre-rotating in the right direction?

Nowadays the modern wiggly-wobbly edge technique makes pre-rotation possible, but at the expense of the uniqueness of the true classic Lutz jump.

YES, and what annoys me so much about all of this, is skaters like Shcherbakova are getting massive, game-changing amounts of points for "Quad Lutzes" that are really just 3.25 rotations in the air from a flat edge, whereas if you told Shcherbakova to go try a perfect 3.0 air rotation Triple Lutz from a deep outside edge, she'd likely never be able to do it to save her life. She gets TWICE as much credit for doing .25 more air rotations from a much weaker takeoff. How is this accurate of the athletic accomplishment on the ice?

In reality, the level of jumping these girls are doing has not actually progressed at all from what Midori Ito already accomplished in 1988 (maaaybe Trusova at her best can be said to have pushed the objective level of jumping, in a single program, forward). They've just found ways of modulating the technique to serve the superficial rules on paper, which are not currently an accurate measure of total skating ability.

 

[Pale]

YES, and what annoys me so much about all of this, is skaters like Shcherbakova are getting massive, game-changing amounts of points for "Quad Lutzes" that are really just 3.25 rotations in the air from a flat edge, whereas if you told Shcherbakova to go try a perfect 3.0 air rotation Triple Lutz from a deep outside edge, she'd likely never be able to do it to save her life. She gets TWICE as much credit for doing .25 more air rotations from a much weaker takeoff. How is this accurate of the athletic accomplishment on the ice?

These skaters follow the rules. What is the point of learning "a perfect 3.0 air rotation Triple Lutz from a deep outside edge" if it is not rewarded ?
That's just dumb. Athletes are competing to win, not to please trolls and haters.
And i am fairly certain she would be jumping a perfect rotation whatever if the rules originally gave her the most points for it. Why ? Cause Anna is an exceptional athlete and she is training at the best skating club in the world.
So it happens that doing additional .25 air rotations is out of reach for the vast majority of the ladies field. Hence i think the reward is accurate and completely justified. Not to mention that most skaters jump 2.5 air rotation triples, nobody bothers with 3.0 anyway.

 

[Shayuki]

These skaters follow the rules. What is the point of learning "a perfect 3.0 air rotation Triple Lutz from a deep outside edge" if it is not rewarded ?
That's just dumb. Athletes are competing to win, not to please trolls and haters.
And i am fairly certain she would be jumping a perfect rotation whatever if the rules originally gave her the most points for it. Why ? Cause Anna is an exceptional athlete and she is training at the best skating club in the world.
So it happens that doing additional .25 air rotations is out of reach for the vast majority of the ladies field. Hence i think the reward is accurate and completely justified. Not to mention that most skaters jump 2.5 air rotation triples, nobody bothers with 3.0 anyway.

Agreed. Obviously if rules required, say, 3.0 revolutions in the air for triples, that's what they'd do instead of 2.25. It's not like she couldn't do it, if she can jump quads. But in that case, we might not have much of a competition, because very very few ladies in the world could do that, and the sport would die. Small problem, right?

All of it just seems like the anger should be directed towards ISU for making the rules what they are. What's wrong with the skaters following them?

 

[chasingneverland]

Thank you.

People who keep arguing so fervently against any kind of pushback seem to be forgetting that nobody is saying Shcherbakova should have lost the competition overall. She was just very overscored. I even think her LP was quite magical and it's something I've watched several times, not out of obligation for a comparative analysis, but because I actually wanted to anyway. Yet, she was still overscored, in an apparent example of corrupt judging. These dualities exist.

Quite frankly, everyone was overscored, with the exception of maybe Sofia. So to bring up corrupt judging is to insinuate that she alone was a beneficiary of lenient, very enthusiastic, national scoring, which is, quite frankly, grossly misleading.

 

[chasingneverland]

Saying "Anna's lutz is on the wrong edge" is not the same as saying "I hate Anna because her lutz is on the wrong edge". It's a sport, critiquing technique is not the same as hating a person. It's fine if people disagree, but we're talking about her feet, not her worth as a person. Wanting a skater to correct a mistake means you appreciate their potential, it doesn't mean that you think if they're not perfect then they're trash.

Agreed. The problem is that doesn't apply for some posters who are clearly unwilling or unable to recognize any talent in a skater and choose to only see the negative, whether real or perceived. Constructive criticism is one thing, singling out only one skater is another.

 

[chasingneverland]

Veronika Zhilina landed real 4Lz in practice - underrotated though but with minimal pre-rotation.

I find it interesting that you forgive under-rotations while not pre-rotations. Isn't your argument directly related to number of revolutions in the air? Would that also not mean that Veronika also does not have a "real" 4Lz? Personally, I think you're looking for things to criticize Anna for and bring it up regardless of the prior topic of conversation - which is neither helpful nor constructive.

 

[chasingneverland]

He never says their technique is the ideal of what the sport should be. More assumptions and twisting of words.

I find it interesting that you're offended by this "twisting of words" but not about the insinuation that Anna "is so proud" and "annoying" about how "perfect" she is.

 

[Amei]

I find it interesting that you're offended by this "twisting of words" but not about the insinuation that Anna "is so proud" and "annoying" about how "perfect" she is.

There's nothing wrong with being proud of your accomplishments, based off interviews Shcherbakova has never seemed to be arrogant about her accomplishments. For anyone thinking negatively regarding Shcherbakova's character I would advise them to go look up the interview after the FS at 2020 Nationals where Shcherbakova is trying to contain her excitement about winning nationals in only what I can assume was respect that Kostornaia and Trusova were both beside her and upset at the fact they didn't win.

 

[lopsilceci]

I, too, love intricate entries and gorgeous flow out of jumps, but alas, there are other GOE bullets. And as much as I love, say, Daria's 3Lz from her SP (I just love her split jump!) I wouldn't hesitate to give it negative GOE.

But the thing about judges is that they should be able to judge based on what they see on the ice that particular day, not what they know about the skater. That's not some super difficult task that only a genius robot can do. I understand it may be difficult due to the fact that there's only one camera angle, but like, some of the slow mo camera angles at Russian Nationals exposed any and every fault with a jump. With the slow motion available I don't understand why Daria didn't get an "e" call. There is no GOE bullet for whether or not you get a heart attack before a skater goes into a jump, so a skaters inconsistencies really shouldn't be impacting GOE at all. None of the GOE bullets can be altered by previous knowledge that the skater might not land the jump. Does the fact that Sasha fell on her 4Lz at Rostelecom Cup take away from the quality of her 4Lz+3T at RusNats? No. And, even if consistency is rewarded, that still doesn't make sense. Tsibinova has been incredibly consistent this season, but where is her favorable judging? Kamila wasn't even all that consistent this season and yet she was rewarded.

And the fact that unclear edges are a widespread issue shouldn't take away from the fact that it is an issue. Just because 90% of skaters flutz doesn't mean that's okay. We should still take points off where it should be taken off.

I'm not talking about judges being too stupid to use their eyes vs genius robots.
I'm talking about humans being naturally incapable of being 100% objective.

The lack of proper technology aid is also not helping the judges do their job correctly but the ISU doesn't seem to care about technology.

What we usually see is that consistency helps build PCS and skaters with higher PCS benefit from higher GOE too.

In a field as deep as russian ladies, consistency alone is not enough, you also need strong technical content to get to the top.
Even then, we have seen that skaters with ultra c jumps on a bad day can be beaten by skaters with weaker tech that are having a good day, so, consistency can still take you far without the hardest jumps.

In Anna's case, she's consistent, one of the strongest in components, gets her levels in non jump elements and also does the hardest jumps. She also recovers quickly from mistakes and they don't affect her performance much mentally. She's definitely one of the most complete skaters currently competing and I don't see why any of her qualities should be diminished just because her lutz edge isn't perfect.

 

[Jontor]

Well if neither Aliona or Liza deliveres I can see Nugomanova or Guliakova (bronze at Rostelcom) being outsiders for that 3rd worlds spot.

Nugumanova or Guliakova? I can't see that happen. And I must say that I don't understand the push Guliakova seem to get from RusFed (Mishin power?) as there are a lots of girls I find are much better than her. Gubanova has always been better, and Tsibinova, Talalaikina and Samodurova all beat her at RusNats.
If Aliona or Liza and Little Liza don't deliver at Rus Cup Final, I'm pretty sure RusFed would send Samodurova again...unfortunately.

 

[Jontor]

No, Shcherbakova's quads are more heavily pre-rotated and thus don't get further around, if assuming both land exactly backwards in relation to the start of the takeoff. It's not "biased", she FACTUALLY gets less rotation in the air. A lot of what you are considering a "hate campaign" are very real flaws and very real problems in the scoring.


That's just weak judging, something we are trying to improve. There is no point in accepting an incorrect mentality just because it's how things go normally; reputation judging needs to be curbed.



Anna does not have "a lot better flow out". Her exiting edge is less stable, although she does cover it up with a leg extension. She doesn't have a more pleasing aerial position position, they are essentially the same, any small difference there is mere stylistic preference rather than technical superiority. She absolutely does not have "delayed rotation", LOL WHAT?! No no no. She spins off the ice on these jumps, this is an absolutely crazy assertion, you need to check out some actual delayed jumps to see what that really is.

And then finally is the lutz edge, which you try to ignore as if it's nothing. It's not nothing. Anna's flat edge is worse and needs to be accounted for properly. Trusova's more correct technique deserves +1 higher on GOE. Also, you have ignored the issue of Anna's 3Lz+3Lo in the LP, which was significantly weaker, and yet the scores did not accurately reflect it.

LOL! What is this nonsense?

 

[Amei]

Nugumanova or Guliakova? I can't see that happen. And I must say that I don't understand the push Guliakova seem to get from RusFed (Mishin power?) as there are a lots of girls I find are much better than her. Gubanova has always been better, and Tsibinova, Talalaikina and Samodurova all beat her at RusNats.
If Aliona or Liza and Little Liza don't deliver at Rus Cup Final, I'm pretty sure RusFed would send Samodurova again...unfortunately.

As long as Tuktamysheva doesn't completely meltdown and suffer from illness, I don't see the Fed sending Samodurova over her, Samodurova has under-rotation issues and would struggle to be in the top 5 at worlds, Tuktamysheva would likely be easily in the top 5.

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

I'm not talking about judges being too stupid to use their eyes vs genius robots.
I'm talking about humans being naturally incapable of being 100% objective.

The lack of proper technology aid is also not helping the judges do their job correctly but the ISU doesn't seem to care about technology.

What we usually see is that consistency helps build PCS and skaters with higher PCS benefit from higher GOE too.

In a field as deep as russian ladies, consistency alone is not enough, you also need strong technical content to get to the top.
Even then, we have seen that skaters with ultra c jumps on a bad day can be beaten by skaters with weaker tech that are having a good day, so, consistency can still take you far without the hardest jumps.

In Anna's case, she's consistent, one of the strongest in components, gets her levels in non jump elements and also does the hardest jumps. She also recovers quickly from mistakes and they don't affect her performance much mentally. She's definitely one of the most complete skaters currently competing and I don't see why any of her qualities should be diminished just because her lutz edge isn't perfect.

And I don't see why her lutz edge should be ignored simply because she is an amazing skater in other categories.

And why should skaters with high PCS get high GOE? Take Satoko Miyahara for an example. Such a great skater in terms of PCS but technically? Just because I'd give her all 9s in PCS doesn't mean I'd give her all 5s for her jumps.

And while I can understand maybe giving lower PE for an inconsistent skater because the judge is super scared the entire performance, I don't understand how inconsistencies in jumping for previous competitions can effect the SS and TR for a clean performance. The quality of skating skills really shouldn't be affected by whether or not you fell a few times a month ago, at a completely different competition.

 

[Jontor]

I agree with most of this post, but not this part. Honestly, I don't think Anya's +3Lo combos have much flow out of them, and this particular one, while probably one of her best, is not excluded from that category.

Maybe I haven't looked deeply enough but I don't see any delayed rotation in Anna's jumps? Maybe I've been spoiled by watching Polina Tsurskaya these past few days whose delayed rotation is really obvious. When one mentions things like "aesthetically pleasing" that automatically signals subjectiveness. I personally find Sasha's air position more aesthetic than Anna's, but I understand how one could believe the opposite. And even if Anna had better flow out of the combo (which again I disagree), Sasha had better flow and rhythm within the combo (it's the most effortless Lz-Lo I've seen in that aspect).

But I guess I agree with that last part, only if I saw these two next to each other I'd give Sasha the higher GOE. I think it's because I care more about the rhythm of +3Lo combos. Out of every +3Lo combo I've seen Sasha is the one who gets up into the 3Lo quickest, thus giving the jump more flow. It also makes it look effortless since it lacks that motion most skaters do where they like pull themselves up after sort of opening their position (Alina does this). Again, we are all biased. I've always found Sasha's +3Lo to be the best, while others think Anna's is. I don't think anyone is wrong, because we look at different aspects of the combo. So, I don't think people saying Sasha's 3Lz+3Lo is better only cares about the edges, I know I don't.

I agree with most of this. Although I am soooo tired of all this bashing of Anna, I agree her 3Lz+3Lo are usually not of best quality. She often lands the loop on a stand still. BUT, she did the best one she had done in years in the short program at RusNats. And then she had a good one at the free skate - but Sasha's was better! And was scored accordingly! Sasha's combo was scored higher! So, I don't understand what people are complaining about? It is plain manipulation of argument when you compare Sasha's combo from the free skate with Anna's from the short (like BoP did).
It's nitpicking and forced comparing that only shows that this argument comes from someone that just don't like Anna...period.

We all know that the best Loop combos belongs to Zagitova who had a fantastic height in her Loop and wounderful flow out of it. (If you haven't seen it, check out her Olympic skates... )

When it comes to Anna's 4Lzs, my opinion is that they are way better than Sasha's. Sasha has a fantastic takeoff, but she almost always land them with a big lean (that also often results in a fall). RusNats was not an exception in this case, that lean in both Sasha's quads was very obvious.

And all this talk about Anna's pre-rotation is just ridiculous...again, this argument comes from people that just don't like her. I would appreciate if these people just come clean and just say that to our face, instead of having silly arguments that sounds like rules that doesn't exist.

 

[Jontor]

90% of skaters have an unclear edge on at least one jump and other technical mistakes. It seems to be more of a big deal to some fans than to the ISU themselves.

Personally, I prefer an unclear edge jump with difficult entries and exists and good flow to a jump with a looong super simple entrance and exit with clear edge.
I just find the first type more impressive and satisfying than the other.

Also, another thing about the judging is that judges seem to appreciate consistency over pretty much anything else.
Sasha has never been as consistent as Anna or Aliona and that has probably held her scores back more than anything.
Besides from doing very technically difficult programs, Eteri skaters are usually super consistent across different competitions, which is why they sometimes seem to be favored by judges over other skaters who are more unpredictable.
Maybe that's not fair and and it would be more transparent if skaters were judged solely by what they show on the actual day of the competition and not their reputation, but until the day that judges get completely replaced by robots, it is what it is.

This

 

[Jontor]

YES, and what annoys me so much about all of this, is skaters like Shcherbakova are getting massive, game-changing amounts of points for "Quad Lutzes" that are really just 3.25 rotations in the air from a flat edge, whereas if you told Shcherbakova to go try a perfect 3.0 air rotation Triple Lutz from a deep outside edge, she'd likely never be able to do it to save her life. She gets TWICE as much credit for doing .25 more air rotations from a much weaker takeoff. How is this accurate of the athletic accomplishment on the ice?

In reality, the level of jumping these girls are doing has not actually progressed at all from what Midori Ito already accomplished in 1988 (maaaybe Trusova at her best can be said to have pushed the objective level of jumping, in a single program, forward). They've just found ways of modulating the technique to serve the superficial rules on paper, which are not currently an accurate measure of total skating ability.

Your argument is obsolete, as NO ONE is doing true Lutzes now. The whole idea of the jump is that it is done in the "wrong" direction.
Well, everyone since the late 90s goes into the Lutz nowadays in a straight line, then they change the edge just before jumping. It has NOTHING to do with counter-rotation anymore...in fact it is a new type of jump.

Which means this whole Lutz discussion is just silly, because the arguments are based on a jump that doesn't exist anymore.

 

[Jontor]

As long as Tuktamysheva doesn't completely meltdown and suffer from illness, I don't see the Fed sending Samodurova over her, Samodurova has under-rotation issues and would struggle to be in the top 5 at worlds, Tuktamysheva would likely be easily in the top 5.

Yeah you're right. Which means, that even if Kostornaia and Tuktamysheva underperforms, one of them will still be up for Worlds in Stockholm.