2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[colormyworld240]

Ladies with the best Lutz edges are always either less flexible or have some kind of extra difficulty with stabilizing their Flip edge to not clearly press onto to the outside, so it already balances out (really can't think of any Lady whose had amazing flexibility + totally unquestionable Lutz/Flip edges; and if they do, then good on them).

Currently, Kamila is very flexible with an outside edge lutz and inside edge flip. She has her own issues but she's one of the few with different edges. Alina in junior and the Olympic season was also quite flexible with distinct edges. And of course Zhilina but she has yet to skate internationally. Other skaters with distinct edges include Rika, Polina Tsurskaya, and Maria Sotskova who aren't extremely flexible but have average flexibility for skaters.

I, too, love intricate entries and gorgeous flow out of jumps, but alas, there are other GOE bullets. And as much as I love, say, Daria's 3Lz from her SP (I just love her split jump!) I wouldn't hesitate to give it negative GOE.

That's the thing, though. There are other GOE bullets. But the narrative with Anna is that she's always undeserving, stealing medals, placements, etc. That she has awful jumps because of her takeoff and doesn't deserve positive GOE. There's a complete disregard for the positives in her jumps - the other GOE bullet points. Yes, you can deduct the flat edge and the takeoff GOE bullet, but that doesn't mean she isn't earning the other bullet points.

Similarly, if a skater has a good takeoff, they get the +1 for that bullet but it doesn't mean they automatically get all the other bullet points as well.

So many posters seem to think that because of her flat edge, it should automatically be negative GOE, she doesn't deserve her PCS (and anything else). That there is no way she should win because she has a flat edge lutz.

 

[Mathman]

These skaters follow the rules. What is the point of learning "a perfect 3.0 air rotation Triple Lutz from a deep outside edge" if it is not rewarded ?

To me, the point is he same point as, if a pole vaulter wants to get credit for vaulting 6 meters, then he should be required to vault 6 meters.

And i am fairly certain she would be jumping a perfect rotation whatever if the rules originally gave her the most points for it... Not to mention that most skaters jump 2.5 air rotation triples, nobody bothers with 3.0 anyway.

Something of a condemnation of the whole sport don't you think?

 

[sclloyd]

I am searching for this English language interview of hers where is bragging about her two quad lutzes. I watched it last year. Can not find it now. But it is so obvious how proud she is there.

At risk of feeding the troll (while in agreement with many others here that her technique needs to improve in a few areas and that judging is somewhat flawed) I think it’s unfair to make such harsh judgements of someone speaking about their feelings in another language. I recall the interview your speaking of. The answers were very basic.
“How do you feel about your performance here” “I am very happy to have been able to land cleanly my jumps” and other answers like that were hardly gloating. Imagine you are a fifteen year old girl and you’ve just won your first international competition as a senior with a record setting performance. Should she not be happy about that? And that ignores all the other nuances of her interviews in Russian, where her thoughts on her performance were far more detailed, and she was not limited by her language. I have my favorites on ice but on character and will, I question none of the top Russian ladies. They outwardly seem bright and good natured. The sport is not the person, and attacks against Anna’s character regardless of how the judges score her or how you like her skating are totally unwarranted.

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

Currently, Kamila is very flexible with an outside edge lutz and inside edge flip. She has her own issues but she's one of the few with different edges. Alina in junior and the Olympic season was also quite flexible with distinct edges. And of course Zhilina but she has yet to skate internationally. Other skaters with distinct edges include Rika, Polina Tsurskaya, and Maria Sotskova who aren't extremely flexible but have average flexibility for skaters.

I mean for like one competition as a novice Kamila had a questionable lutz edge, but I'm happy to see she's fixed that issue. Well, to be fair, I think Rika has good flexibility. Masha also had pretty good flexibility (she has a better biellmann and I-spin than most).

That's the thing, though. There are other GOE bullets. But the narrative with Anna is that she's always undeserving, stealing medals, placements, etc. That she has awful jumps because of her takeoff and doesn't deserve positive GOE. There's a complete disregard for the positives in her jumps - the other GOE bullet points. Yes, you can deduct the flat edge and the takeoff GOE bullet, but that doesn't mean she isn't earning the other bullet points.

Similarly, if a skater has a good takeoff, they get the +1 for that bullet but it doesn't mean they automatically get all the other bullet points as well.

So many posters seem to think that because of her flat edge, it should automatically be negative GOE, she doesn't deserve her PCS (and anything else). That there is no way she should win because she has a flat edge lutz.

I totally think Anna deserved the win, but the thing is I think the top 3 should have been much closer (2-3 points at maximum). It depends on which jump we talk about, but for most of Anna's lutzes I think she'd probably get from 0 to +1 on them (I don't find her 3lz combos to be particularly effortless but her 4Lz is very aesthetic in that respect). I have other issues with her scoring (namely SS and spin GOE), but I do think it's flawed for one to say: "Anna didn't deserve to win because she flutzes!" since that's entirely untrue.

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

I also believe the ISU will probably never punish prerotation, at least not severely. Maybe they might publish a rule about it, but I seriously doubt it would be enforced. With the amount of skaters who prerotate, the sport would be severely pushed back in time, and we'll probably see many triple jumps be downgraded or URed. That just would not be beneficial to the ISU. They would also need to get technology capable of measuring angles of takeoffs and install more cameras. So alas, it probably won't happen. Maybe we could make "minimal PR" a GOE bullet that is necessary for +4/5 GOE?

 

[Mathman]

Your argument is obsolete, as NO ONE is doing true Lutzes now.

. (Maybe Boyang Jin or Mikhail Kolyda.)

Which means this whole Lutz discussion is just silly.

I don't think it is silly to lament the degradation of the sport.

 

[Vilord]

Is there a chance that ISU is going to apply its pre-rotation rule again?
They canceled it because of COVID.

Yuzuru Hanyu on quad lutz pre-rotation:
"Of course, the 4Lz is very difficult, but it's possible that everyone may be able to jump it, if they want to. It also depends on the type of skater. In my case, no matter how hard I practice, I can't pre-rotate it. It wasn't taught that way when I was young. Gradually, the 4Lz might stop being a lutz jump."

I think there is something coming for exess pree rotation probably after the olympics since its not only a thing in ladies quads but also some men. However I think there are several things the ISU needs to figure out about how to fairly score it and answering questions like:
What is allowed pree rotation?
How to accurately detect pree rotation?
Should it be penalised with < or GOE reduction?
Is it the job of the tech panel or the judges to identify?
etc

 

[colormyworld240]

I totally think Anna deserved the win, but the thing is I think the top 3 should have been much closer (2-3 points at maximum). It depends on which jump we talk about, but for most of Anna's lutzes I think she'd probably get from 0 to +1 on them (I don't find her 3lz combos to be particularly effortless but her 4Lz is very aesthetic in that respect).

It depends on which of the other bullet points you think she should get. I'd give her a ! and deduct the take off point because of the edge, but for her quad I'd give her height and distance, body position, on the music, and landing. That'd bring her to around a +3, which she does get internationally (and sometimes +4 too but I don't remember her having transitions into it here where as she normally does). I also think her other jumps have those bullets - the 4F, 3Lz, 3F, and 2A. However, she's not the only one who'd have a score change. Kamila and Sasha would also have to have their TES recalculated to see how much the different would be.

There's also no standard in the rules for what is considered good height and distance. Some may only consider Kamila's 4T to have that, in which case none of the other ladies' jumps would get that bullet. But apart from Kamila's 4T, the biggest jumps here were Anna and Sasha's 4Lz, and Anna's 4F. Same goes for triples.

 

[FelineFairy]

And I don't see why her lutz edge should be ignored simply because she is an amazing skater in other categories.

And why should skaters with high PCS get high GOE? Take Satoko Miyahara for an example. Such a great skater in terms of PCS but technically? Just because I'd give her all 9s in PCS doesn't mean I'd give her all 5s for her jumps.

And while I can understand maybe giving lower PE for an inconsistent skater because the judge is super scared the entire performance, I don't understand how inconsistencies in jumping for previous competitions can effect the SS and TR for a clean performance. The quality of skating skills really shouldn't be affected by whether or not you fell a few times a month ago, at a completely different competition.

It is not that I think that kind of judging is 100% correct, but it is universal and international. When Satoko has UR jumps, they are called now, but they were not often called internationally when she was No.1 in Japan.
As for overall PCS, the way they are judged in a corridor as it was explained to me, doesn't contribute to real evaluation of abilities. If judges NEED to be explained in advance what scores to award, where is the sense of the whole system?

 

[readernick]

And I don't see why her lutz edge should be ignored simply because she is an amazing skater in other categories.

And why should skaters with high PCS get high GOE? Take Satoko Miyahara for an example. Such a great skater in terms of PCS but technically? Just because I'd give her all 9s in PCS doesn't mean I'd give her all 5s for her jumps.

And while I can understand maybe giving lower PE for an inconsistent skater because the judge is super scared the entire performance, I don't understand how inconsistencies in jumping for previous competitions can effect the SS and TR for a clean performance. The quality of skating skills really shouldn't be affected by whether or not you fell a few times a month ago, at a completely different competition.

It shouldn't. Frankly, it feels like judges still do holistic judging with the IJS, when it isn't designed to be used that way. Anna for instance deserves high PCS in interpretation, but her SS is certainly not in the same range as her musicality. Yet, judges don't make that distinction. There just isn't enough differentiation between different elements and different PCS categories or GOE on different elements Why can't a judge give Anna a 9.5 in interpretation and a 7.5 in SS. Give her high GOE on her choreographic sequence, and +0/1 on her 4Lz. ( Yes, there are positives... her rotation position is lovely but also a few minuses including the edge)

Certainly, this doesn't just apply to Anna . It is something we see for most of the favorites. Last year, Alena ( who deserves high GOE on most jumps) wouldn't get penalized for her sometimes flat 3Lz edge and would get really high GOE on her rather ugly I-spin. She also got equally high marks in SS and interpretation. Even though she is the opposite of Anna and deserves 9.5 in SS and 8 in interpretation. I think the judges have a hard time judging in the IJS system. I wish they would be encouraged to use a wider variety of marks for more accurate judging.

 

[lappo]

A couple of questions:
- any news from Ksenia Sinitsyna?
- what is going on with Masha Sotskova and her (ex?) husband? And, more importantly, is she ok?
- a bit of a guess: what SP song was Alena refused that was one of the reason for leaving team Tuk (the song was given to another girl at team Tuk, it is not clear to me if as an SP or LP song)
Thanks!

 

[Resa]

Not really hating... It is just that Anna has the worst jump technique of all the top skaters and yet she is winning medals. She also has small jumps and poor skating skills yet she is praised.

The fact that she only wins over the other girls in domestic competitions says enough. Now, we can move on and not post about it every second day? It gets very tiring.

 

[Vilord]

It shouldn't. Frankly, it feels like judges still do holistic judging with the IJS, when it isn't designed to be used that way. Anna for instance deserves high PCS in interpretation, but her SS are certainly not in the same range as her musicality. Yet, judges don't make that distinction. There just isn't enough differentiation between different elements and different PCS categories or GOE on different elements Why can't a judge give Anna a 9.5 in interpretation and a 7.5 in SS. Give her high GOE on her choreographic sequence, and +0/1 on her 4Lz. ( Yes, there are positives... her rotation position is lovely but also a few minuses including the edge)

Certainly, this didn't just apply to Anna . It is something we see for most of the favorites. Last year, Alena ( who deserves high GOE on most jumps) wouldn't get penalized for her sometimes flat 3Lz edge, and would get really high GOE on her rather ugly I-spin. She also got equally high marks in SS and interpretation. Even though she is the opposite of Anna and deserves 9.5 in SS and 8 in interpretation. I think the judges have a hard time judging in the IJS system. I wish they would be encouraged to use a wider variety of marks for more accurate judging.

I agree. And frankly I think at least the PCS problem is that the judges just have to much to do. There was a suggestion a few years back that was to have two separte judging panels. One for GOE and one for PCS I think that could have helped slove the problem but I can see why for smaller competitions that could be difficult in practice.

 

[Resa]

A couple of questions:
- any news from Ksenia Sinitsyna?
- what is going on with Masha Sotskova and her (ex?) husband? And, more importantly, is she ok?
- a bit of a guess: what SP song was Alena refused that was one of the reason for leaving team Tuk (the song was given to another girl at team Tuk, it is not clear to me if as an SP or LP song)
Thanks!

Wait what, Sotskova is already divorced?

 

[Mawwerg]

The fact that she only wins over the other girls in domestic competitions says enough. Now, we can move on and not post about it every second day? It gets very tiring.

However could you name at least two girls who won over Anna in her last international season?

 

[Novalis]

The fact that she only wins over the other girls in domestic competitions says enough. Now, we can move on and not post about it every second day? It gets very tiring.

I would love to move on from this subject, but this sort of innuendo (quite naughty) is the last type of post that helps to achieve that goal.

Anna has won Russian Nationals three times in a row because her best performance in each season has been in this said competition. No reason to hint at other directions here.

 

[Lzbee]

I think there is something coming for exess pree rotation probably after the olympics since its not only a thing in ladies quads but also some men. However I think there are several things the ISU needs to figure out about how to fairly score it and answering questions like:
What is allowed pree rotation?
How to accurately detect pree rotation?
Should it be penalised with < or GOE reduction?
Is it the job of the tech panel or the judges to identify?
etc

They were going to introduce a full blade take off deduction for 2020/21 season but scrapped all the adjustments for that season. They may bring it back after Olympics since it was already considered.

Then again they also considered making Lutz and Flip the same base value which was unpopular with fans so maybe everything will be scrapped permanently.

 

[lappo]

Wait what, Sotskova is already divorced?

Apparently so... from what I gathered on another forum Masha's (ex?) husband is a nut case and posted unpleasant things about her on social media and apparently ended up in a mental facility. That's why I'm a bit concerned for Masha, who already had it very hard in the recent past.

 

[readernick]

I agree. And frankly I think at least the PCS problem is that the judges just have to much to do. There was asuggestion a few years back that was to have two separte judging panels. One for GOE and one for PCS I think that could have helped slove the problem but I can see why for smaller competitions that could be difficult in practice.

I also like this suggestion. However, I think it is difficult to get that many judges to participate in smaller competitions and would be a financial burden for small competitions also. However, it should at least be implemented at GP events, and major international competitions.

A couple of questions:
- any news from Ksenia Sinitsyna?

What is going on with Ksenia? Where is my favorite Russian girl this year? I hope she is okay. Her beautiful performances were definitely missed this year.

 

[nussnacker]

A couple of questions:
- any news from Ksenia Sinitsyna?
- what is going on with Masha Sotskova and her (ex?) husband? And, more importantly, is she ok?
- a bit of a guess: what SP song was Alena refused that was one of the reason for leaving team Tuk (the song was given to another girl at team Tuk, it is not clear to me if as an SP or LP song)
Thanks!

The last I heard of Ksenia she was back to training after healing her injury (end of October), there were also some interactions with her fan groups later on in November and December and that was it.
She’s probably just taking her time with gaining her shape back.

Im similarly worried for Maria, she’s been through so much, and erratic behavior of her (ex-)husband must be hard for her to take in. Hopefully he’ll be able to heal fully in that mental institution.