2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[Mathman]

Perfect technique is rewarded though. Yuzuru Hanyu has textbook technique and his jumps have minimal pre-rotation. He is:
- Two time Olympic champion...

Still, it is not really fair to use the accomplishments of the GOATS of the sport, like Hanyu and Kim, to criticize present day skaters who are just starting out in their careers. Who knows, maybe Anna will one day have a comparable list of achievments and honors.

 

[Blades of Passion]

These skaters follow the rules. What is the point of learning "a perfect 3.0 air rotation Triple Lutz from a deep outside edge" if it is not rewarded ?

They are following the rules in one sense, but the judges are not scoring properly, so they are getting more points than deserved. Bad judging that is so commonplace as to become completely normal is essentially the same thing as a rule - when entire programs are choreographed with an expectation of how a typical judge will score it. Regardless, the rules need to be changed. The more people think this kind of jumping is "perfect", or that the awful footwork we see these days is "perfect", the further away the sport gets from objectivity and improvements.

Obviously if rules required, say, 3.0 revolutions in the air for triples, that's what they'd do instead of 2.25. It's not like she couldn't do it, if she can jump quads.

That's totally incorrect, being able to jump a 3.25 rotation quad from a flat edge does not at all mean you would be able to do a 3.0 rotation Lutz from a deep outside edge. With the quad of that technique, the skater is generating the rotational ability by turning on the ice (especially with the toepick foot), NOT generating the rotation from their legs and the edge.

Anyway, the rule should not be 3.0 rotations in the air for a Triple, obviously. It's basically not even possible to do that for a Loop/Salchow/Toeloop. What we DO need to see is a complete system of assessing jump rotation fairly, with tech panels more closely looking at exactly where a jump leaves the ice, and excessive pre-rotation being subtracted from the landing point of the skater, to determine if they rotated enough or not.

The rules for grading GOE also need to be significantly changed. There needs to be more emphasis placed on height/distance of a jump and there needs to be a "rotation completed entirely in the air" bullet added to the GOE rules, so that there is a clear understanding of rewarding people who do that kind of top-quality jumping. It shouldn't be possible to get +5 GOE on a jump without jumping like that.

 

[NadezhdaNadya]

I found it:

"You wrote in social networks that now many people have problems with productions, because everyone is carried away only by the number of turns.

- Honestly: there are few interesting performances. Everyone began to focus on technology, chasing multi-turn. This is understandable: try to catch up with the guys with quads - no beautiful program will help here. And before there were many interesting programs, everything looked brighter somehow. Maybe I looked with different eyes then.

But this season, for example, I like Kostornaya's programs. For me Alena is a goddess on ice, charming. I also like Anya Shcherbakova's numbers very much. I used to do a lot with her when Tutberidze asked her to leave the group. I also left at that moment, and Anya and I worked a lot.

I don't think it will surprise anyone that we then collaborated with Anya. We worked together with Artemy Punin - he was engaged in her jumps. It was he who put the triples Shcherbakova, and not anyone else. Punin, by the way, is also a pupil of Tutberidze. He choreographed jumps, and I did programs and sliding with Anya. It was after this that Eteri Georgievna again took Shcherbakova to her group.

This is a normal situation because Eteri is already a great coach. She is now telling everyone: "Good girl, come with all the triplets - I'll take you." She already has such a solid track record, everyone strives for her, so there is no other way.

- What was Anna able to do before leaving the group?

- She jumped doubles and double axel, but there were serious mistakes, and no one wanted to do it. The coaches then had someone to work with, and there was no point in wasting time with Anya.

- And in which group did Shcherbakova study before returning to Tutberidze?

- None. Her parents paid for private lessons - that was all.

- At the "Crystal"?

- No. We worked with her on skating rinks in Snezh.com and in Kommunarka. This was in 2014-2015. And at the end of that season - in 2015 - Anya came to Tutberidze with all the triples. They took her right there. And now we see the result, - said Adonyev."

 

[Zora]

I'm just wondering, are there any examples of skaters who jumped for years on the wrong edge or with full blade assists and were then able to fix it? Obviously the above skaters aren't trying to fix theirs because they aren't losing any points and their coaches don't care, but would it even be possible to correct after doing it that way for so long if they tried?

Miki Ando was able to fix her severe Lip. For comparison: https://youtu.be/ANkkEMZUqG8?t=250 and https://youtu.be/x2KRWFCiyKA?t=336

Also Joannie Rochette had a flutz early in her career: https://youtu.be/SkDt6pyGeDM?t=64
Later her Lutz was perfect: https://youtu.be/WgfqIScnoCo?t=325

 

[chasingneverland]

There's nothing wrong with being proud of your accomplishments, based off interviews Shcherbakova has never seemed to be arrogant about her accomplishments. For anyone thinking negatively regarding Shcherbakova's character I would advise them to go look up the interview after the FS at 2020 Nationals where Shcherbakova is trying to contain her excitement about winning nationals in only what I can assume was respect that Kostornaia and Trusova were both beside her and upset at the fact they didn't win.

Agreed. I'm defending Anna. She's been nothing but humble.

 

[sclloyd]

I'm just wondering, are there any examples of skaters who jumped for years on the wrong edge or with full blade assists and were then able to fix it? Obviously the above skaters aren't trying to fix theirs because they aren't losing any points and their coaches don't care, but would it even be possible to correct after doing it that way for so long if they tried?

We saw improvements in both Kamila’s and Aliona’s lutz technique but I think a lot of that for Aliona had to do with entrance and focus. And Kamila still has blade assistance in a lot of her take-offs. So it may be possible to marginally adjust the technique, but it seems to me those with really persistent problems— like Zhenya— just become completely unstable? Though it may just take an insane amount of work and conditioning. Zhenya’a lutz edge was never really clear outside even with Orser, but it did start getting more flat, and even maybe outside once or twice in practices if I recall correctly. My assumption from these three ladies is then that— it is not impossible but likely takes a substantial amount of time to correct which would be better used on refining other skills that will increase their scores more than often uncalled edges.

 

[NadezhdaNadya]

Still, it is not really fair to use the accomplishments of the GOATS of the sport, like Hanyu and Kim, to criticize present day skaters who are just starting out in their careers. Who knows, maybe Anna will one day have a comparable list of achievments and honors.

Not only the GOATS Yuzuru and Yuna. But also Natchan Chen, Boyang Jin, Mikhail Kolyada, Carolina Kostner. They all have textbook technique and amazing achievements.
Alexia Paganini however is rather underscored and so is Veronika Zhilina to a certain extend. I do not get why?
And so is Tuktamysheva. (Because of her other problems.)

 

[Skatefan15]

Yeah, very interesting. If one can't press the 0.25x button on Youtube themselves, it might be of some value.

Lol, well based on the fact that a few on this forum were insisting that some skater’s had correct lutz edges, I thought this video would help clear things up (even though the edge mistakes are obvious in normal time ).
Along with showing slowed down videos, the YouTube video also shows the GOE each skater got, which was also interesting to me (like Sasha getting a 0 for her combo!!)

 

[Dawn825]

Miki Ando was able to fix her severe Lip. For comparison: https://youtu.be/ANkkEMZUqG8?t=250 and https://youtu.be/x2KRWFCiyKA?t=336

Also Joannie Rochette had a flutz early in her career: https://youtu.be/SkDt6pyGeDM?t=64
Later her Lutz was perfect: https://youtu.be/WgfqIScnoCo?t=325

Thanks. I have to be honest, I don't see a big problem with Miki's flip in the first video, but with Joannie I see the clear improvement.

How do you know that?
I think they are trying very very hard to fix their flaws, and their coaches do care.

You think Dudakov or whoever is drilling Scherbakova, Usacheva, and Khromykh on single lutzes with deep outside edges every day to try and fix their flutzes? I don't. And the fact that every notable skater besides Tsurskaya to come out of that camp does the significant prerotation proves the camp recognizes that the jumps are easier when partially rotated on the ice. I am sure the girls work extremely hard on many things, and I think their coaches care a great deal on how jumps are landed and scored.

Alexia Paganini however is rather underscored and so is Veronika Zhilina to a certain extend. I do not get why?
And so is Tuktamysheva. (Because of her other problems.)

I don't know about Zhilina, but for Paganini she has to deliver with some consistency to be considered a top lady and get the appropriate scoring. Same issue as with Tuktamysheva, racking up clean skates is the only way to get the judges to pay attention to you. Paganini might have really missed out on Worlds and this season being cancelled, if I remember right she skated pretty well at Europeans and could have continued to build on that.

 

[Shayuki]

Lol, well based on the fact that a few on this forum were insisting that some skater’s had correct lutz edges

Really? I decided to go against my policies and give that video a view.

The still is on the wrong frame, as expected - a typical Koola King cult fabrication. It's supposed to be earlier, which shows Shcherbakova has a slight outside edge, not flat edge. And even if she had shifted to flat at the correct time, it isn't even a !, but rather a -1 GOE without any marking - if that. Rather, she shifts to flat after the toe pick's already on the ice, which is whatever and not even -GOE.

Now, I'll go ahead and check whether every other jump had the still too late or just Anna to see whether it's a headhunting video or just a genuinely incompetent one.

edit: Haha, so for the other stills the pick's not even on the ice yet, but the still for Anna's way later. What an awful Anti-Anna propaganda video.

Here's the proper one:

For the slightly outside edge.

 

[NadezhdaNadya]

Thanks. I have to be honest, I don't see a big problem with Miki's flip in the first video, but with Joannie I see the clear improvement.


You think Dudakov or whoever is drilling Scherbakova, Usacheva, and Khromykh on single lutzes with deep outside edges every day to try and fix their flutzes? I don't. And the fact that every notable skater besides Tsurskaya to come out of that camp does the significant prerotation proves the camp recognizes that the jumps are easier when partially rotated on the ice. I am sure the girls work extremely hard on many things, and I think their coaches care a great deal on how jumps are landed and scored.


I don't know about Zhilina, but for Paganini she has to deliver with some consistency to be considered a top lady and get the appropriate scoring. Same issue as with Tuktamysheva, racking up clean skates is the only way to get the judges to pay attention to you. Paganini might have really missed out on Worlds and this season being cancelled, if I remember right she skated pretty well at Europeans and could have continued to build on that.

Not only Tsurskaya has textbook lutz with minimal pre-rotation, but also:
Tarakanova has (or had) textbook lutz with minimal pre-rotation:

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

youtu.be

Veronika Zhilina has textbook lutz with minimal pre-rotation.
Alyona has nice lutz too (not textbook technique but still very good technique).

 

[Shayuki]

Not only Tsurskaya has textbook lutz with minimal pre-rotation, but also:
Tarakanova has (or had) textbook lutz with minimal pre-rotation:

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

youtu.be

Veronika Zhilina has textbook lutz with minimal pre-rotation.
Alyona has nice lutz too (not textbook technique but still very good technique).

Actually I said Tsurskaya's Lutz wasn't textbook but it definitely was, not sure why I said that.

Tarakanova's Lutz isn't textbook though.

 

[NadezhdaNadya]

Actually I said Tsurskaya's Lutz wasn't textbook but it definitely was, not sure why I said that.

Tarakanova's Lutz isn't textbook though.

Did you watch Tarakanova's video - she has deep outside edge, pure toe pick assistance and minimal pre-rotation. You can watch in 0.25 speed.

 

[sclloyd]

Really? I decided to go against my policies and give that video a view.

The still is on the wrong frame, as expected - a typical Koola King cult fabrication. It's supposed to be earlier, which shows Shcherbakova has a slight outside edge, not flat edge. And even if she had shifted to flat at the correct time, it isn't even a !, but rather a -1 GOE without any marking - if that. Rather, she shifts to flat after the toe pick's already on the ice, which is whatever and not even -GOE.

Now, I'll go ahead and check whether every other jump had the still too late or just Anna to see whether it's a headhunting video or just a genuinely incompetent one.

edit: Haha, so for the other stills the pick's not even on the ice yet, but the still for Anna's way later. What an awful Anti-Anna propaganda video.

Here's the proper one:

For the slightly outside edge.

Yet you did the same thing— toe pick is not yet in the ice in this video, rather slightly above it. And it’s still not even “outside”. That edge on any skater would get a ! from me. What are the definitions of “clear” and “deep”? Certainly not this.

I’d also like to again lambast the tendency of this thread to assume that any critique of certain skaters is automatically propaganda against them.

 

[Amei]

The fact that she only wins over the other girls in domestic competitions says enough. Now, we can move on and not post about it every second day? It gets very tiring.

As a senior the only person to ever beat Shcherbakova was Kostornaia.

 

[Skatefan15]

Really? I decided to go against my policies and give that video a view.

The still is on the wrong frame, as expected - a typical Koola King cult fabrication. It's supposed to be earlier, which shows Shcherbakova has a slight outside edge, not flat edge. And even if she had shifted to flat at the correct time, it isn't even a !, but rather a -1 GOE without any marking - if that. Rather, she shifts to flat after the toe pick's already on the ice, which is whatever and not even -GOE.

Now, I'll go ahead and check whether every other jump had the still too late or just Anna to see whether it's a headhunting video or just a genuinely incompetent one.

edit: Haha, so for the other stills the pick's not even on the ice yet, but the still for Anna's way later. What an awful Anti-Anna propaganda video.

Here's the proper one:

For the slightly outside edge.

To be honest that edge still looks flat to me. She doesn’t have this ideal (or even very good) technique many claim she has (or at least that’s the way it comes across), if your technique was really that good you would stay on the same edge the entire time (like Boyang, Yuzu, Alexia P, Liza T, Rika, etc). The video is not “anti-Anna propaganda”, you can still be a fan of a skater and admit their faults. Her lutz at no point is outside during her takeoff (toe pick on ice and even slightly before). And like I said earlier, ideal technique would have the same edge the whole time :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VziXOiM8Jaw
I know this video shows her quad lutz from COC 2019, but her jump still looks the same as it does now.
I know she’s your favorite skater, so at this point we can just agree to disagree.

 

[NadezhdaNadya]

OK, so I found a topic about pre-rotation here in the archives from early 2016. There are criticized Uno, Miyahara and Fernandez. Way before KK videos about Sotnikova and way before Eteri quad girls. So I found this opinion of @Marin:
"Guys, this is cheating lol, it is like when soccer player kicks the ball with hand and it is counted as a goal, is it correct ? I don't know how to explain any more ....:sad4:
It is unfair to skaters who don't cheat and jump as it should be, they put all effort, why should they be judged equally? There should be some punishment for wrong take off
I am not mentioning again that prerotation + bad technique is dangerous and very risky first and foremost ....."

 

[Blades of Passion]

Here's the proper one:

For the slightly outside edge.

Her toepick is not in the ice yet. This is an incorrect way to call a jump, another attempt to overlook factual flaws just because you are a fan.

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

Actually I said Tsurskaya's Lutz wasn't textbook but it definitely was, not sure why I said that.

Tarakanova's Lutz isn't textbook though.

Back in 2017/18 and 2018/19 Nastya's lutz was definitely textbook but I took a look at her lutz from a few weeks ago (from her Russian cup performances) and she did prerotate at least 150 degrees.

Interestingly enough, from what videos I've seen, Alyona seems to have a better toepick and less prerotation with her lutz than with her flip.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Yet you did the same thing— toe pick is not yet in the ice in this video, rather slightly above it. And it’s still not even “outside”. That edge on any skater would get a ! from me. What are the definitions of “clear” and “deep”? Certainly not this.

I’d also like to again lambast the tendency of this thread to assume that any critique of certain skaters is automatically propaganda against them.

Nowhere is written that lutz edge should be deep and clear, the only written word is outside! If you want to give a skater benefit of a doubt, which is also stated in the ISU recommendations, you wouldn't call it as flat either, because it is not completely flat too.