USFS Announces Worlds team

[Blades of Passion]

Zhou finished sixth at the Olympics. That was a huge deal for him, and considering that he won a World medal the very next year, I don't see how you could argue that sending him to the Olympics didn't pay off for the USFS.

Sixth at Olympics doesn't mean anything (and Ross had the ability to finish there too). I'm sure he was happy to go and be at the Olympics, but it didn't get any extra coverage, and it doesn't give USA any additional points or anything. Ross beat him at the most important competition and had the seniority and his programs were more likely to spark viewer interest, which leads to more media coverage and more people wanting to get into figure skating (either as viewer or spectator).

Vincent could have won a Silver at 2018 Worlds AND his Bronze at 2019 Worlds. Being introduced as a World Silver medalist is more impressive than "6th place at Olympics". It's possible to say he could have won Silver at Worlds anyway and he simply messed up, but I think he would have been hungrier to prove himself and put everything into Worlds, if he hadn't gone to the Olympics. The same as Wakaba Higuchi skating her best LP ever there, after missing the Olympics.

 

[Colonel Green]

Sixth at Olympics doesn't mean anything (and Ross had the ability to finish there too). I'm sure he was happy to go and be at the Olympics, but it didn't get any extra coverage, and it doesn't give USA any additional points or anything. Ross beat him at the most important competition and had the seniority and his programs were more likely to spark viewer interest, which leads to more media coverage and more people wanting to get into figure skating (either as viewer or spectator).

If you look at Miner's career in the preceding few seasons, his result at nationals was much closer to a fluke than anything else; there's little reason to think he might have placed as high as Zhou ended up doing. And given that Zhou was a rising prospect, there was plenty of reason to consider sending him; and certainly reason to think he did benefit from going to the Olympics and getting that experience.

 

[Blades of Passion]

If you look at Miner's career in the preceding few seasons, his result at nationals was much closer to a fluke than anything else.

Skaters traditionally plan to peak at the Olympics, and also specifically at Nationals before the Olympics, to be named to the team. That's what he did. It was not the only time in his career he showed that level of skating, even if his most recent seasons were rougher. This why other factors must be taken into consideration; injuries and circumstances that have prevented someone from showing their peak ability. He did in fact have a big injury and then also started college; his skating leading up 2018 was about balancing the workload and maintaining his body.

Ross was underrated at times in the past (he should have been 2011 National Champ and 5th at that Worlds), so it was especially sad to see how horribly he was treated with the selection. Also to envision how much more support he would have received in his whole career if he had been judged as the 2011 champ. That title follows you everywhere.

 

[karne]

Skaters traditionally plan to peak at the Olympics, and also specifically at Nationals before the Olympics, to be named to the team. That's what he did. It was not the only time in his career he showed that level of skating, even if his most recent seasons were rougher. This why other factors must be taken into consideration; injuries and circumstances that have prevented someone from showing their peak ability. He did in fact have a big injury and then also started college; his skating leading up 2018 was about balancing the workload and maintaining his body.

But the skaters had also been told, well in advance, that Nationals was not the only consideration and that other events would be taken into consideration as well. As far as - well, everyone - was concerned, Ross managed to pull two good skates out of his butt at Nationals, but there was absolutely no evidence in the last two or three years to suggest that he would be able to do so again at the Olys/Worlds.

And also? Ross then had not one, but two chances to prove everyone wrong and that USFS should have sent him. Instead, he chose to sulk at home, while Jason and Max proved that they were worthy to be in the discussion. Their 4CC skates - just a week and a half after Nationals! - were absolutely testament to their strength and dignity.

I still would have sent him to the Olympics instead of Zhou and Zhou could go to Worlds.

If anything, the other outlying result was actually Zhou's. His Senior debut season was underwhelming at best. Everyone needs to be honest here: If someone had told us before Nationals that all of Max, Jason and Adam would blow that Nationals, they would have been laughed off the board.

Interestingly, Max and Vincent went head to head four times in the Olympic season, with the result being 3-1 in Max's favour. All three of Max's wins came in front of international panels. It was just horrible timing that the one result he didn't come out on top of was Nationals. But Vincent was the lowest ranked of the "five contenders" in terms of body of work going in to Nationals. Adam, Nathan, Jason and Max had all had far better seasons.

 

[Blades of Passion]

But the skaters had also been told, well in advance, that Nationals was not the only consideration and that other events would be taken into consideration as well.

They were not told in 2014, nor before the start of the 16-17 season (or maybe I remember wrong, someone look it up). If you have a multi-year plan, how are you supposed to adjust it with only a little more than 1 year's notice?

Ross then had not one, but two chances to prove everyone wrong and that USFS should have sent him. Instead, he chose to sulk at home, while Jason and Max proved that they were worthy to be in the discussion. Their 4CC skates - just a week and a half after Nationals! - were absolutely testament to their strength and dignity.

Well, "proving everyone wrong" means almost nothing here, because the decision was done and would not be reversed, and he wasn't going to continue competing after that season anyway. It was also a much different situation, because Jason and especially Max performed poorly at Nationals, they both were having trouble all season long (some decent results but never skating close to their best), and Max also did poorly the previous season. They knew they shouldn't be on the Olympic team.

If anything, the other outlying result was actually Zhou's. His Senior debut season was underwhelming at best. Everyone needs to be honest here: If someone had told us before Nationals that all of Max, Jason and Adam would blow that Nationals, they would have been laughed off the board.

Yeah, not only was his season leading up to Nationals underwhelming, he also had been getting generous tech calls for his cheated quads. Further reason for why I think he should have been off the Olympic team - he was capable of big tech, but needed to clean it up. He should have been given that feedback at the start of the season and the time to work on it, to peak at Worlds.

 

[Colonel Green]

Yeah, not only was his season leading up to Nationals underwhelming, he also had been getting generous tech calls for his cheated quads. Further reason for why I think he should have been off the Olympic team - he was capable of big tech, but needed to clean it up. He should have been given that feedback at the start of the season and the time to work on it, to peak at Worlds.

And yet...he finished sixth at the Olympics.

 

[Colonel Green]

They were not told in 2014, nor before the start of the 16-17 season (or maybe I remember wrong, someone look it up). If you have a multi-year plan, how are you supposed to adjust it with only a little more than 1 year's notice?

You really misunderstand what training to peak at the right time means. Nobody plans years in advance that they'll be bad-to-mediocre for most of the quad and then have a great skate at the Olympic-qualifying nationals.

Nor would anyone have needed to be told this anyway, after what happened in 2014 with Wagner and Nagasu (an even more clear-cut case of the correct decision being made).

 

[Blades of Passion]

You really misunderstand what training to peak at the right time means. Nobody plans years in advance that they'll be bad-to-mediocre for most of the quad and then have a great skate at the Olympic-qualifying nationals.

You misunderstand what was said. If someone has an injury and has decided to also put less time into skating to focus on other things, they clearly have different life circumstances/plan, and do not expect themselves to be immediate contenders. It should be expected that getting a Quad back and delivering perfect competitive performances will take more time. If the goal is the Olympics, they have a clear target they are trying to hit.

If it was known well enough in advance that a successful previous season before the Olympic season would be required for selection, then perhaps he would have put off school and fully focused on skating, knowing he would need to peak earlier. Beyond that, is the issue of if further injuries were preventing a peak. If someone is currently healthy for the Olympics, when they weren't before, how should it be considered?

Nor would anyone have needed to be told this anyway, after what happened in 2014 with Wagner and Nagasu (an even more clear-cut case of the correct decision being made).

That's a totally different situation. Wagner was THE top female skater 3 seasons in a row for USA heading into those Nationals. She medaled at the GPF right before Nationals. It was a given she would be going to the Olympics, unless badly injured. Nationals didn't matter for her.

The Silver medalist at Nationals in a 3-person team had never been passed over before either.

And yet...he finished sixth at the Olympics.

Again, meaningless in the context of things.

 

[karne]

They were not told in 2014, nor before the start of the 16-17 season (or maybe I remember wrong, someone look it up). If you have a multi-year plan, how are you supposed to adjust it with only a little more than 1 year's notice?

They were told before 2016-17. In fact, I'm pretty sure they were told the season before.

Well, "proving everyone wrong" means almost nothing here, because the decision was done and would not be reversed, and he wasn't going to continue competing after that season anyway. It was also a much different situation, because Jason and especially Max performed poorly at Nationals, they both were having trouble all season long (some decent results but never skating close to their best), and Max also did poorly the previous season. They knew they shouldn't be on the Olympic team.

How is it different? Miner had a terrible GP season. Even if you discard 16-17 as you bang on about, he hadn't done anything in the Olympic GP season to prove he deserved a spot on the team, as evidenced by the fact that he wasn't even being talked about in the run-up to Nationals.

Miner could have proven that his Nationals skate wasn't just a one-off, and chose not to - and I believe part of that was that he knew he could not repeat it.

Jason qualified for the GPF in the 17-18 GP season and Max won bronze (and won the free skate) at Cup of China with the best FS of his career until that point (including three clean quads) but uh, go off I guess.

He should have been given that feedback at the start of the season and the time to work on it, to peak at Worlds.

While I generally agree, it wasn't like the UR problem was new. JGP panels had been calling him UR for literal years. He'd got URs at JWC the season before. This shouldn't have been a surprise.

 

[Blades of Passion]

How is it different? Miner had a terrible GP season.

Yes I know. But I'm saying Jason and Max were not consistent leading up to Nationals, and then additionally bombed at Nationals. I don't think 2017 CoC is the best Max ever skated either. Yes he did 3 quads, but the program was very bland, most of the landings lacked quality, and he downgraded the 3Toe. Kurt Browning was sighing out of boredom on-air while watching the performance and making constant innuendos about how much was lacking in the program and how he didn't like this direction for figure skating.

Miner could have proven that his Nationals skate wasn't just a one-off, and chose not to - and I believe part of that was that he knew he could not repeat it.

Skating well takes motivation, emotional drive. It's no surprise if he wouldn't be able to repeat a top performance by going to an event that would only remind him of how badly his federation had just screwed him over and how his dreams were completely done.

 

[Mathman]

Sixth at Olympics doesn't mean anything.

It does.

Of the 7.8 billion people on Earth, quite a few of them have never finished higher than 12th at any Olympic Games.

I hope Karen Chen gets 6th at Worlds.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Well yes I appreciate it, but to 99.9% of the populace, they will never know about or remember it. That is, unless your skating is something that gets mass-shared in the media, which is not the case for Vincent. So realistically, his Olympic appearance did nothing better for USA than what Ross Miner was capable of, nor did it help him to peak at Worlds that season.

 

[Colonel Green]

Well yes I appreciate it, but to 99.9% of the populace, they will never know about or remember it. That is, unless your skating is something that gets mass-shared in the media, which is not the case for Vincent. So realistically, his Olympic appearance did nothing better for USA than what Ross Miner was capable of, nor did it help him to peak at Worlds that season.

It helped Vincent develop as a skater, and sixth at the Olympics does matter for how judges see you in the future.

 

[Blades of Passion]

It helped Vincent develop as a skater, and sixth at the Olympics does matter for how judges see you in the future.

How did it help him to develop as a skater? There is no evidence of that at all, I only see the opposite - he performed poorly at Worlds, where a Silver medal was within reach. Which is unquestionably something that helps a skater more in the eyes of judges than 6th at an Olympics.

If he had won a medal at 4CC before that Worlds he would've had plenty of clout with the judges to take him seriously as a medal contender too. He was already reigning Junior World champ.

 

[Colonel Green]

How did it help him to develop as a skater? There is no evidence of that at all, I only see the opposite - he performed poorly at Worlds, where a Silver medal was within reach. Which is unquestionably something that helps a skater more in the eyes of judges than 6th at an Olympics.

Have you ever read any interviews with skaters about the experience of going to the Olympics? It also affords practical competition experience at the highest possible level. And that could not but help him going forward (where, as we saw, he won a World medal the next year; and almost did that season, but for a bad free skate).

Vincent going to the Olympics was a success, plain and simple.

 

[Blades of Passion]

You keep ignoring his failure at 2018 Worlds, I'm not sure why. Your claim that his Olympic appearance "did nothing but help him going forward" is not too credible.

He also already would have won that medal at 2019 Worlds regardless, with the level of skating he showed prior to the Olympics, because the field in 2019 bombed. He already had the experience of a Senior Worlds in 2018 too; it's not as if the Olympics is the sole thing to draw upon. If he had been sent to 2018 4CC, then he also would have gotten the same/similar experience of sharing the ice with Shoma and Boyang, his main competitors for that 2019 medal.

 

[Colonel Green]

You keep ignoring his failure at 2018 Worlds, I'm not sure why.

Because I don’t think it’s relevant. He did really well in the short program and then had a rough free skate; so did a lot of more experienced people on that particular day.

Vincent was sent to the Olympics in the hopes he’d be a contender in the future. He not only had a strong showing at the Olympics, he did become a contender in the future; things worked out as the USFS hoped.

 

[Dawn825]

I haven't read this whole thread, or all the arguments. I don't know if Miner or Brown should have been on the team instead, or how they would have placed. I'll just say lots of people don't go to the Worlds after the Olympics because they've already peaked and are emotionally exhausted. Zagitova went and did poorly also, and people forgave her because she was brilliant at the Olympics and Worlds the next year. Sometimes people bomb at competitions, it happens. Perhaps more telling is the very inconsistent season he had before the actual Worlds in 2019. But then you talk about peaking at the right time, and 3 medals at Nationals, 4CC, then Worlds is exactly that. I'd say getting Bronze at that Worlds has done the most for his confidence and reputation, as well as how close he was to Nathan at this Nationals. But I think being 6th at the last Olympics will help him at the next one, when he's clearly improved since then. With so few competitions since then, it might count for more than it normally would.

 

[Apple1078]

I haven't read this whole thread, or all the arguments. I don't know if Miner or Brown should have been on the team instead, or how they would have placed. I'll just say lots of people don't go to the Worlds after the Olympics because they've already peaked and are emotionally exhausted. Zagitova went and did poorly also, and people forgave her because she was brilliant at the Olympics and Worlds the next year. Sometimes people bomb at competitions, it happens. Perhaps more telling is the very inconsistent season he had before the actual Worlds in 2019. But then you talk about peaking at the right time, and 3 medals at Nationals, 4CC, then Worlds is exactly that. I'd say getting Bronze at that Worlds has done the most for his confidence and reputation, as well as how close he was to Nathan at this Nationals. But I think being 6th at the last Olympics will help him at the next one, when he's clearly improved since then. With so few competitions since then, it might count for more than it normally would.

That is very true. The final group in the Men's free skate at worlds 2018 was chaotic.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Because I don’t think it’s relevant.

Not sure what to say when you think the World Championships isn't relevant. A very strange kind of reality-bending trying to happen here.

He not only had a strong showing at the Olympics, he did become a contender in the future; things worked out as the USFS hoped.

He was already going to become a contender in the future. Going to the Olympics did nothing to help with that.