2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[Vandevska]

Maybe nine volunteers on GS could assemble into a "panel of judges" for some competitions and make the "local" scores (plus eventually 3 more for tech panel)

Uuuuu this would be very fun! But if a judge is proved to be biased then there should be repercussions for them like in real world judging.

 

[NadezhdaNadya]

Stop picking and choosing the parts of people's quotes you agree with completely changing the tone of the post. It's completely disingenuous. The poster then went on to mention her strengths and that she WOULDN'T be as low as you preposterously stated.

What are you even talking about? The poster INDEED said exactly this:
Anna does not have the best skating skills or jumping technique (and sure, most of the time she is judged as if she does)
Go read some more.
What does the tone of the poster have to do with anything?
I think I hit a nerve with you. Now you are telling me what not to do.

 

[flanker]

Then by all means let’s compare.
The reason Anna is constantly the subject is because she wins competitions with excessive scores; and those scores deserve to be questioned, as do Kamila’s and even Sasha’s. But because Anna is the winner, the score becomes even more pertinent. I don’t believe she shouldn’t have won RusNats even with fair scoring. But do you think Sasha deserved a 0 GOE mark for a jump that every other judge scored 3 or 4? It is the same treatment as Liza got last year. There’s a reason the scores are scrutinized. Sasha gets rightfully called on an edge in the short, and Anna’s edge issues aren’t in the free. THAT IS WHY. It is about how the scoring always seems to favor certain athletes perceived as the favorite by the Fed. When it favored Zhenya she was the topic of discussion, now it’s Anna. The issue remains.

Anna was a "subject" even when she didn't win, that's for first. This unfavourism against her surely can't be reduced on russian nationals.

For the second, once again I remind that "singling Anna out" has nothing to do with "objectivity", I'll borrow my previous comparison, that's on the same level as when the fans of defeated football team shout "everything wrong with the goal". One "0" GOE (that has zero impact on the score) can surely can't justify such behaviour, esp, when you can find tons of similar causes concerning other skaters that don't cause the angry mobs.

At the cup stages Sasha's flip edge should've received "e" not just "!" but somehow no ranting about that. As for "Anna's edge", it was pointed here many times and IMO this "calling" is "we tried to shout Anna¨s edge this 20 times before so we can try it now as well no matter the reality". And I once again add that to me Sasha's second 4Lz was UR and wasn't called but don't practice this low behaviour.

 

[NadezhdaNadya]

First, Anna was a "subject" even when she didn't win, that's for first. This unfavourism against her surely can't be reduced on russian nationals.

For the second, once again I remind that "singling Anna out" has nothing to do with "objectivity", I'll borrow my previous comparison, that's on the same level as when the fans of defeated football team shout "everything wrong with the goal". One "0" GOE (that has zero impact on the score) can surely can't justify such behaviour, esp, when you can find tons of similar causes concerning other skaters that don't cause the angry mobs.

At the cup stages Sasha's flip edge should've received "e" not just "!" but somehow no ranting about that. As for "Anna's edge", it was pointed here many times and IMO this "calling" is "we tried to shout Anna¨s edge this 20 times before so we can try it now as well no matter the reality". And I once again add that to me Sasha's second 4Lz was UR and wasn't called but don't practice this low behaviour.

And at least one of Anna's quads was a Q. Was she deducted for that? No! It is not only her edges that are problematic.

 

[flanker]

why did yall have to wake up Nadya?

Odysseus also had to wake up Polyphemos to get out of his cave

 

[NadezhdaNadya]

"Hahaha" is the makeshift for an argument

You really made me laugh hard! Still laughing!
Honestly If I had been a ladies skater I would have retired already. It seems that the competition nowadays is how to execute the elements in the worse possible ways in order to have the highest scores! Cheers to Anna!

 

[flanker]

And at least one of Anna's quads was a Q. Was she deducted for that? No! It is not only her edges that are problematic.

It wasn't. I have to know that, I watched it in slow motion.

You really made me laugh hard! Still laughing!

That's the idea

 

[karina17]

Legend states that if you say Anna Shcherbakova three times into a mirror at midnight, NadezhdaNadya appears behind you and clubs you with a bat.

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

You posted your personal scoring here to compare it to actual scoring to defend the idea that Anna is somehow "singled out" (in the sense of favoured) as a response to the question where Anna should lose, so you can hardly expect the one-way exclusivity. It's not like other's scores are questionable and comparable but yours is not

If the cause for the endless complaining surrounding Anna's name here is "overscoring", then it rises several questions, of which one of the most important is "overscoring related to what". What is the standard. I guess I don't ask for much when I consider international scoring (with all possible and impossible complaints) as something that could be settled as a standard for this purpose. When it comes particularly to Anna, I think her senior int. scoring gives some quite stable foundations, 160.16 at the SA, 152.53 at the CoC, 162.65 at GPF and 159.81 at the Europeans, with more or less justified nuances against each other based on performance and mistakes at particular events (except the CoC of course, that was a fluke ). Facing the alleged overscoring with blatant underscoring even related to actual international scoring is like an essay with little base.

Actually I posted my scoring because someone couldn’t comprehend how one could possibly decrease Anna and Sasha’s 18 point difference to 0. And also because someone else asked me to. You can question my score, but not by comparing it to an international score? Espeically considering I've said that my scoring is different from international scores. (Once I rescored JGPF for fun and Kseniia Sinitsyna won). That's not even questioning it, that's just saying I'm biased because I'm not imitating international judges? I was never trying to? Since I'm not imitating international judges, her international scores aren't a guideline for my scoring. My guidelines are the rulebook and what I believe to be "exceptional" in each category. That's the subjectivity of scoring. It's not blatant underscoring either. So, if Sasha were to score a 170 internationally with 2 falls and a pop everyone would nod their heads and say: "yes that's correct" and then she does the same thing domestically and I give her a 140 and everyone would say: "NO! But she got a 170 internationally! You're wrong!" You believe international scores are correct. I don't.

 

[Adjesusluvsu]

You believe international scores are correct. I don't.

I wasn't in the original comment thread of this, but I think it's safe to say that most of us don't trust international or domestic scoring lol

 

[flanker]

Actually I posted my scoring because someone couldn’t comprehend how one could possibly decrease Anna and Sasha’s 18 point difference to 0. And also because someone else asked me to. You can question my score, but not by comparing it to an international score? Espeically considering I've said that my scoring is different from international scores. (Once I rescored JGPF for fun and Kseniia Sinitsyna won). That's not even questioning it, that's just saying I'm biased because I'm not imitating international judges? I was never trying to? Since I'm not imitating international judges, her international scores aren't a guideline for my scoring. My guidelines are the rulebook and what I believe to be "exceptional" in each category. That's the subjectivity of scoring. It's not blatant underscoring either. So, if Sasha were to score a 170 internationally with 2 falls and a pop everyone would nod their heads and say: "yes that's correct" and then she does the same thing domestically and I give her a 140 and everyone would say: "NO! But she got a 170 internationally! You're wrong!" You believe international scores are correct. I don't.

The actual line was "How do you suggest the judges forged the 18 point gap, and how would correct judging have brought the 18 down to 0". And you clearly start with "correcting" the RusNats score which exists in a world where also international scoring exists. The fact that your supposed "corrected" score differs just for pitiful four points from Anna's score from Europeans is the reason why to question the number you posted (and consider it blatantly underscored) and you also didn't write anything about that such number shouldn't be related to any judging, and that it should be somehow enclosed in your world. It's not "unrelated" if it actually is related to real judging (BTW RusNats judging is also related to other judgings, otherwise people wouldn't even start ranting about oversoring etc. It could be just claimed that national judging is not related to international with no further comparisons or complaints).

Your "example" has little to no value for this, it's completely hypothetical. There are questionable international scorings, that's why I also used Anna's scores from several competitions which are rather consistent, but not following that is not the reason why I consider you biased.

 

[Skatelife]

With all Nadya's reviews, Anna's FS video is almost hitting the 2M Views

 

[Vemvane]

With all the post-event rescoring that happens in this thread, we evidently need a figure skating version of the Spectator Judging app we have for equestrian sports. To quote from the linked article:

The app, available now for free download from iTunes and Google Play, allows audiences to get in the judges’ seats during competition and create real-time scores and rankings, which then sit side-by-side with official results on the arena scoreboards.

Users have the opportunity to score each movement throughout individual dressage tests or simply set the score at the end, with a raft of additional functions including comparing scores with fellow fans, and access to athlete and horse statistics.

This way everyone gets their chance to be a judge, to score the skaters as they think fit, and do it all in real time too.

 

[Shayuki]

I actually used a scoring calculator and while Anna won (as I believe she should have) I do believe the difference went from 18 to 2 points (which I hold onto as what should have happened).
1. SS from 9.57 to 8.5. (but of course I’d lower SS for everyone. I think the closest difference for SS from actual score to my score was Liza N. who I have 9.25. Next was Daria with 8.90.
2. Lutzes called ! and decrease of GOE.
3. Spins with lower GOE (normally I’d be okay with high GOE on her spins since she is a good spinner, but her spins at RusNats were kind of sloppy, BUT DARIA AND MAIIA AND LIZA AND SASHA AND ALYONA AND SEVERAL OTHERS HAVE ALSO SUFFERED FROM INCONSISTENT SPINS).
4. Choreo and steps with lower GOE. (only by a little though, maybe instead of +4 or +5 just a +3)
5. CO from 9.something to 8.5 and TR behind Kamila’s.
6. Id also lower PE/IN but I’d keep her first overall for those categories.
7. My scores for this event were like thirty points lower (for the top 3) since I really lowered PCS and GOE.

Why. Do. You. Think. That. A. Program. With. 2. Quads. And. 7. Triples. Objectively. Deserves. A. Lower. Score. Than. A. Program. With. 2. Quads. And. 6. Triples. ?

Domestic scoring ALWAYS gets overscored in relation to international scoring. You're complaining about general domestic overscoring which has NOTHING to do with what my post was about. My post was a counter to the allegation that Judges stole Anna the nationals. Whether the baseline scoring for the Russian nationals is 30 or 50 or 100 points lower has absolutely NOTHING to do with the RELATIVE scoring of the skaters.

You can well say that Anna deserved lower PCS, and I can well say Trusova deserved lower PCS. So?

You talk about spins. Question.

Do you think Trusova has better spins than Anna?

If not, what on earth are you arguing about?


If we talk about Valieva and the FS's, we probably could recognize a couple of things.

First, 6 triples vs 7 triples. Second, more difficult quads. Third, 3loop combo. All that amounted to? 7.55 higher BV. That's the objective score.

So we'd need to assume that Kamila Valieva, first time senior national participant who received some 10 PCS more than Anna did as a first time senior national participant, deserved to get more GOE and PCS by over 7.55 points. Well. That'd be simply unprecedented wouldn't it? Her scoring's already absurdly high for a first time eligible, isn't it? I mean, I like Valieva a lot, she's the only other skater I really follow in addition to Shcherbakova and in some aspects of PCS she's ahead, skating skills for sure, but Anna still is ahead in interpretation for example. As for quality, Valieva's jumps are hardly textbook themselves, especially her combos can be quite awkward.

And one would need to justify her getting some 7.55 more GOE and PCS in order to have her over Anna's superior base value. And base value of course is by far the most objective measure of a skate. Anna jumped 7 triples, Valieva and Trusova 6 triples, and a judge's opinion can't change that.

 

[chasingneverland]

What are you even talking about? The poster INDEED said exactly this:
Anna does not have the best skating skills or jumping technique (and sure, most of the time she is judged as if she does)
Go read some more.
What does the tone of the poster have to do with anything?
I think I hit a nerve with you. Now you are telling me what not to do.

LOL.

 

[Mathman]

I have a feeling mods are afraid of this thread.

We want to ban half of the contributors to this thread.

But we can't decide which half.

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

Why. Do. You. Think. That. A. Program. With. 2. Quads. And. 7. Triples. Objectively. Deserves. A. Lower. Score. Than. A. Program. With. 2. Quads. And. 6. Triples. ?

Domestic scoring ALWAYS gets overscored in relation to international scoring. You're complaining about general domestic overscoring which has NOTHING to do with what my post was about. My post was a counter to the allegation that Judges stole Anna the nationals. Whether the baseline scoring for the Russian nationals is 30 or 50 or 100 points lower has absolutely NOTHING to do with the RELATIVE scoring of the skaters.

You can well say that Anna deserved lower PCS, and I can well say Trusova deserved lower PCS. So?

You talk about spins. Question.

Do you think Trusova has better spins than Anna?

If not, what on earth are you arguing about?


If we talk about Valieva and the FS's, we probably could recognize a couple of things.

First, 6 triples vs 7 triples. Second, more difficult quads. Third, 3loop combo. All that amounted to? 7.55 higher BV. That's the objective score.

So we'd need to assume that Kamila Valieva, first time senior national participant who received some 10 PCS more than Anna did as a first time senior national participant, deserved to get more GOE and PCS by over 7.55 points. Well. That'd be simply unprecedented wouldn't it? Her scoring's already absurdly high for a first time eligible, isn't it? I mean, I like Valieva a lot, she's the only other skater I really follow in addition to Shcherbakova and in some aspects of PCS she's ahead, skating skills for sure, but Anna still is ahead in interpretation for example. As for quality, Valieva's jumps are hardly textbook themselves, especially her combos can be quite awkward.

And one would need to justify her getting some 7.55 more GOE and PCS in order to have her over Anna's superior base value. And base value of course is by far the most objective measure of a skate. Anna jumped 7 triples, Valieva and Trusova 6 triples, and a judge's opinion can't change that.

Yes I do. Because that's what my math says.

If the triples and quads are lower quality than that's just how it works in the system. Sorry.

Everyone in the top 5, probably even lower deserved lower PCS. Not just Anna. I gave Anna 71 in PCS, Sasha 67. I think I may have given Kamila 69. PCS is not just performance you know? In terms of transitions, I gave Kamila high points because hers were more difficult and plentiful (that doesn't mean I like them, but I mean, her program is packed with transitions). Skating skills also went to Kamila. PE, CO and IN were all led by Anna, and by 1 point (you may argue it should be lower, but as they are practically tied in everything else, with like a 0.1 difference, I think the 1 point is pretty big, especially given its for 3 categories).

I literally took points off for Kamila's lack of flow in combos. the lutz-toe got a 0 (air position+1, entrance +1, -2 for lack of flow). The toe-toe got a +2 (distance +1, air position+1, takeoff +1, -1 for lack of flow - it's less pronounced in that one IMO). I only gave her higher spin GOE (reason below) and choreo sequence GOE since it had better ice coverage and matched the music better. I gave all three of them +2 steps because honestly, none of them are great. Sasha's has better ice coverage, Kamila's has more flow, and Anna's matches the music the best. I think it might have been the spin GOEs + higher SS and TR that put Kamila as high as she was. I put in the numbers, the system calculates the score. I'm actually kind of confused on how Kami was so close when I think about it, but alas.... here we are.

And while Anna usually spins better than Sasha, her spins at RusNats were no where near her best. Excessive traveling for the first one (especially in the sit position) and lack of acceleration/deceleration in the second one. I gave Anna and Sasha both +2 for most of their spins, but I gave Sasha a +3 on her flying camel because honestly, it didn't travel, it had good positions, it had clear acceleration. Ergo +3. Usually I'd give Anna +4s, no question, but not today. Sasha also had a problematic last spin, and usually I'd give it +3 as well, but I gave it +2 instead due to the traveling.

 

[Scott512]

With all Nadya's reviews, Anna's FS video is almost hitting the 2M Views

It was an incredible free skate considering her condition. Anna is very clutch.

Someone please tell me Russian junior nationals is soon like this week. I dont know how much of Annas lutz's we can take.

 

[flanker]

It was an incredible free skate considering her condition. Anna is very clutch.

Someone please tell me Russian junior nationals is soon like this week. I dont know how much of Annas lutz's we can take.

It's only the next week, unfortunately. Though I can see another round then, like "why Sofia Akatieva this" vs. "why Sofia Samodelkina that" (remember Plushenko was calling CSKA into the alliance while all the lower competitions around Moscow are very proCSKA scored so "really Plushenko?" ) naturally followed by "Veronika Zhilina was robbed"

 

[renebaebae]

When I see how passionate fans are about clearly biased and unfair judging, I Imagine how the skaters themselves feel. Imagine trying your hardest and doing your best only to know that all the Ur and edges will be magically seen in that one camera angle but another skater's will never be seen and they will be consistently overscored.

Also for people saying that Anna will get -1 goe for an edge call, that's not true. Firstly, with the call, her goe cap will be 3 and then with -1 to -2 for the edge call, she will be getting 0 to +1 for that jump. That's about 11.5 or 12.65 Vs the >16 points she's getting for that 4Lutz. Might she still have won, yes, but that is uncertain when all her lutzes are called across the SP and the FP. That gives every one else a fair chance to compete. It's suffocating seeing a group of skaters consistently overscored and all their problems overlooked.