2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[Vilord]

Anna's 4Lz looks to have the same height. In the past, I think the calculations showed that Anna's 4Lz was actually higher, but I think Sasha's did get bigger since her first season of doing them and look about the same now. If you don't think Anna's 4Lz has good height and distance then the only quads to get that bullet point at nationals would be Kamila's 4T.

Anna's 4Lz and 4F look just as big as many men's quads (of course less than Kolyada's or Boyang's) who get the height and distance bullet point. It depends on what the cutoff is but from the measurements we've seen from the detailed post with Mishin's calculation method that was linked here before, correct me if I'm wrong but Anna's 4Lz was in the high 50s (cm), Sasha's 4Lz in the mid 50s, Sasha's 4T in the low 60s and I haven't seen measurements for Kamila's. That qualifies as good height for me.

Annas and Sashas quads at RusNats did not have the same height. It might have been different in juniors but I cant be bothered to go back and check. The heights at RusNats where approximately
Sasha 4Lz(+3T) 55cm (20 frames)
Sasha 4Lz 60cm (21 frames)
Anna 4Lz 27cm (14 frames)
Anna 4F 44cm (18 frames)


I did my calculations based on this video from rusnats since it included both skaters in the same video and the framerate therefore is the same. I got the framerate to be 30 frames/seconds when I checked. And used the following formula to extract the height of the jump

h=g/2*((frames/30)/2)^2

You can check its validity in for example this video that explanis it nicely.

Edit: Since Kamilla is also in that video doing quads I decided to do her as well

Kamilla 4T(+2T) 49cm (19 frames)
Kamilla 4T 44cm (18 frames)

Edit 2: This video was in not ideal to judge height since the frame rate isnt great and the image is sometimes a bit blurry which makes it hard to determine if they are actually still airborn or not. So there is probably a +1/-1 error margine on my calculated air frames. But it was the best I could find.

 

[FelineFairy]

Anna has been singled out for all sorts of nonsense for years.

I wasn't a fan of hers initially. Just a neutral viewer who would watch her programs. I thought she was very competent but I didn't pay close attention. It was the relentless criticism of her skating skills, weight, jumps and general abilities that actually made me focus on her more, to try and understand why there was such a dedicated campaign towards her alleged skating demise.

I became Anna's fan in the process

So yeah.... Anna gets picked on plenty and in the past the things said about her were absolutely ridiculous for a skater of her abilities. At one point someone suggested she might be sent back to juniors and that she might lose there to Kamila.

It wasn't constructive criticism. It was straight up fantasy hatred.

This is what I feel, too. When the trio appeared on the international junior stage, I didn't have favourites among them. I admired their abilities and watched them develop, and gradually warmed (in a different way, but still) to Anna and Sasha. One of the reasons was the unfair bashing of both. In the past, in this thread there was enough of negativity towards both. Now it is leaning more towards Anna, for two reasons, IMHO: the winner gets it all, including negativity, and, which I find extremely unpleasant, there are two people who don't criticize but openly hate, creating this repulsive flair of character assassination. Reasonable critical posts aimed at a normal discussion of flaws and even too emotional critical posts aimed at defending Anna's rivals would have been quite all right, but when the haters' posts constantly appear among them, the constructive ones also start being perceived as similar. One rotten apple spoils the bunch.
Of course there are also exaggerated critiques of other skaters, sometimes condescending style, but no one is keeping digging it as dedicatedly as in Anna's case at present.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Annas and Sashas quads at RusNats did not have the same height. The heights at RusNats where approximately
Sasha 4Lz(+3T) 55cm (20 frames)
Sasha 4Lz 60cm (21 frames)
Anna 4Lz 27cm (14 frames)
Anna 4F 44cm (18 frames)

There's absolutely no way that number is correct for Anna's 4Lz. It's definitely smaller than Trusova's, but less than half as much height can't be accurate, and I know she rotates fast and isn't doing full air rotation, but it's not possible to even hit the 3.25 rotations with such a low number as you've come up with. I can also tell just by looking at it, that she is jumping higher, and also that her own 4F is definitely not over 50% higher than her 4Lz.

 

[FelineFairy]

LOL, a mess. Everyone tries to promote their opinion, to have other people see their side of things. You're basically just arguing that you don't want to hear expert opinions if they do not align with your own. It's quite the contortion to say the desire to have proper judging of Lutzes, something everyone in skating knows is meant to take off from a clear outside, is some kind of "personal indoctrination".

You're incorrect about "preaching my own ideas as the only valuable ones". I constantly try to see all sides, and feel I've put more effort into doing exactly that, than virtually anyone else. The opinions I have are from multiple decades of skating experience and constant education on skating and other relevant arts and athletics. Not only that, but from constant analysis of skating scoring systems and discussing with other knowledgeable individuals (well tbh, they all aren't, but they are in appointed positions anyway, so...) about how to improve the rules/judging. When I see people writing opinions that clearly do not have an understanding of other viewpoints, or of skating history, or of basic facts about skating, then I become most fervent about pushing back against those things being said.

To start with, I appreciate your expertise and opinions. You know much more about this sport than I do.
What I possess is a judging experience and judges training experience (NOT IN FIGURE SKATING) of 20+ years. My viewpoint is that one cannot keep any sphere of art, sport, hobby in strictly set frames for a long time. Newcomers bring innovations, some of which are damaging, some neutral, some beneficial. And if by any chance the public starts loving the innovations so much that even the officials have to do something about it, then changes are imminent. During such period of changes it is important not to lose the old classic way of doing things but also not to close the door to innovations even if they seem ugly to the knowledgeable people keeping traditions. What I always suggest doing in my field in such periods of changes is slightly opening the door by formulating the rule as "allowed from.... to" (which would mean not allowing the totally obsolete and the extremely modern, but finding place for the old and the new) and letting time decide. It is sometimes better than formulating a mathematically strict rule and cutting off other possibilities. In case of a strict old rule and the predominance of cases not complying with it the judges will be forced to either disregard the rule which is always bad or kill something which they might like as a new tendency.
These thoughts are general, I am not trying to say something about jumps!

 

[Blades of Passion]

Interesting thought, although the current scoring system does operate on mathematically strict rules. There's definitely more room for options within the rules that what currently exists, though.

 

[Vilord]

There's absolutely no way that number is correct for Anna's 4Lz. It's definitely smaller than Trusova's, but less than half as much height can't be accurate, and I know she rotates fast and isn't doing full air rotation, but it's not possible to even hit the 3.25 rotations with such a low number as you've come up with. I can also tell just by looking at it, that she is jumping higher, and also that her own 4F is definitely not over 50% higher than her 4Lz.

I agree that it does sound unresonably low but that is what the math says. say I missed a frame (totally possible) and that the jump was actually 15 or maybe even 16 frames that would put her in the 35-40 cm range. The point would still stand that Sasha and Kamilla have significantly better height than Anna.

What you can see when watching the video (frame by frame) is that the pre rotation is exessive and then the jump is also slighly under so she doesnt actually spin much more than 3revs in the air compared to Sashas and Kamillas Quads that have just above 3,5 revs in the air. I was surprised how mush better her 4F was than her 4Lz when analysing them frame by frame because Sashas and Kamillas two quads where almost identical.

Edit: if you can find a better video with more frames per seconds I would happily redo the caculations for all of the jumps.

 

[Gabby30]

Anna fans telling people to kneel in front of her and then getting offendet when people point out her flaws and calling them "hater"....

 

[Bluediamonds09]

Where the hell are the mods???? And is it possible for them to permanently get rid of certain posters?

 

[Shayuki]

Anna gets singled out because the judges singled her out first - by crowning her 3 time national champion.

Really? Judges singled HER out?

In 2019 she got 0.8 PCS more than Trusova. Which is a massive underscoring, Trusova was not even close to her in PCS. Trusova fell, Anna did not fall. Anna won by less than 1 point. How is THAT "the judges singling her out"? How about Trusova just, doesn't fall instead? Whoa, crazy thought. And yes, Trusova fell on a quad, doing 1 extra quad over Anna. But a fall on a quad SHOULD be worth less than a triple, and IS.

In 2020 Anna jumped 3 quads. Kostornaya jumped 0 quads. Kostornaya got over 3 points more PCS. "Judges singled her out!". How about Kostornaya jumps some quads instead? Whoa, crazy thought!

2021 the difference was over 10 points. Where would you take those off, 10 less PCS? Yeah, right. If we want the Trusova angle, the difference was 18 points. How do you suggest the judges forged the 18 point gap, and how would correct judging have brought the 18 down to 0?

Shcherbakova had 2 quads, 7 triples.
Valieva had 2 quads and 6 triples
Trusova had 2 quads and 6 triples.

Tell me why 2 quads and 7 triples deserved to lose vs 2 quads and 6 triples. Go ahead.

 

[Shayuki]

Anna fans telling people to kneel in front of her and then getting offendet when people point out her flaws and calling them "hater"....

Telling people to not non-stop spam harrass a skater is not "telling people to kneel in front of her". And calling this "pointing out her flaws" is ridiculous. They've been pointed out numerous times, we're all aware. We've been aware for years. I'm sure there's no one in this thread who's NOT aware. It doesn't need to be pointed out for the 5435435th time. No matter the conversation, they don't ALL need to be derailed to complain about Anna's Lutz takeoff.

This is not "pointing out her flaws". Nice nickname, by the way. Shocker.

 

[nussnacker]

For those who were worried about Stanislava: she started working with Butsaeva in Moskvich. Butsaeva also coaches Erokhov and Yablokov.

Ушедшая из академии Плющенко Константинова нашла нового тренера

Участница чемпионатов Европы и мира, бронзовый призер Универсиады-2019 фигуристка Станислава Константинова планирует продолжить карьеру под руководством... РИА Новости Спорт, 25.01.2021

rsport.ria.ru

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

Really? Judges singled HER out?

In 2019 she got 0.8 PCS more than Trusova. Which is a massive underscoring, Trusova was not even close to her in PCS. Trusova fell, Anna did not fall. Anna won by less than 1 point. How is THAT "the judges singling her out"? How about Trusova just, doesn't fall instead? Whoa, crazy thought. And yes, Trusova fell on a quad, doing 1 extra quad over Anna. But a fall on a quad SHOULD be worth less than a triple, and IS.

In 2020 Anna jumped 3 quads. Kostornaya jumped 0 quads. Kostornaya got over 3 points more PCS. "Judges singled her out!". How about Kostornaya jumps some quads instead? Whoa, crazy thought!

2021 the difference was over 10 points. Where would you take those off, 10 less PCS? Yeah, right. If we want the Trusova angle, the difference was 18 points. How do you suggest the judges forged the 18 point gap, and how would correct judging have brought the 18 down to 0?

Shcherbakova had 2 quads, 7 triples.
Valieva had 2 quads and 6 triples
Trusova had 2 quads and 6 triples.

Tell me why 2 quads and 7 triples deserved to lose vs 2 quads and 6 triples. Go ahead.

I actually used a scoring calculator and while Anna won (as I believe she should have) I do believe the difference went from 18 to 2 points (which I hold onto as what should have happened).
1. SS from 9.57 to 8.5. (but of course I’d lower SS for everyone. I think the closest difference for SS from actual score to my score was Liza N. who I have 9.25. Next was Daria with 8.90.
2. Lutzes called ! and decrease of GOE.
3. Spins with lower GOE (normally I’d be okay with high GOE on her spins since she is a good spinner, but her spins at RusNats were kind of sloppy, BUT DARIA AND MAIIA AND LIZA AND SASHA AND ALYONA AND SEVERAL OTHERS HAVE ALSO SUFFERED FROM INCONSISTENT SPINS).
4. Choreo and steps with lower GOE. (only by a little though, maybe instead of +4 or +5 just a +3)
5. CO from 9.something to 8.5 and TR behind Kamila’s.
6. Id also lower PE/IN but I’d keep her first overall for those categories.
7. My scores for this event were like thirty points lower (for the top 3) since I really lowered PCS and GOE.

 

[Vilord]

I actually used a scoring calculator and while Anna won (as I believe she should have) I do believe the difference went from 18 to 2 points (which I hold onto as what should have happened).
1. SS from 9.57 to 8.5. (but of course I’d lower SS for everyone. I think the closest difference for SS from actual score to my score was Liza N. who I have 9.25. Next was Daria with 8.90.
2. Lutzes called ! and decrease of GOE.
3. Spins with lower GOE (normally I’d be okay with high GOE on her spins since she is a good spinner, but her spins at RusNats were kind of sloppy, BUT DARIA AND MAIIA AND LIZA AND SASHA AND ALYONA AND SEVERAL OTHERS HAVE ALSO SUFFERED FROM INCONSISTENT SPINS).
4. Choreo and steps with lower GOE. (only by a little though, maybe instead of +4 or +5 just a +3)
5. CO from 9.something to 8.5 and TR behind Kamila’s.
6. Id also lower PE/IN but I’d keep her first overall for those categories.
7. My scores for this event were like thirty points lower (for the top 3) since I really lowered PCS and GOE.

What where your actual scores? Just interested

 

[CrazyKittenLady]

For those who worried about Stanislava: she started working with Butsaeva in Moskvich. Butsaeva also coaches Erokhov and Yablokov.

Ушедшая из академии Плющенко Константинова нашла нового тренера

Участница чемпионатов Европы и мира, бронзовый призер Универсиады-2019 фигуристка Станислава Константинова планирует продолжить карьеру под руководством... РИА Новости Спорт, 25.01.2021

rsport.ria.ru

Thanks for sharing this update! I had a suspicion that she might want to move to SPB, so I'm a bit surprised she is still in Moscow, but I wish her all the best with Butsaeva! Maybe Yablokov can share some ice cream with Stasya at Moskvich.

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

What where your actual scores? Just interested

My computer was running out of space so I don't know my exact scores from a few weeks ago, but I did some calculations and it must have been something like: Anna 163, Sasha 164, Kamila 161 for the FS. But I put Anna ahead for the SP so she ended up winning the whole thing. But, I might be biased in certain ways so I could understand any swapping of the three for any segment honestly.

 

[Mawwerg]

Where the hell are the mods???? And is it possible for them to permanently get rid of certain posters?

I have a feeling mods are afraid of this thread.

 

[flanker]

My computer was running out of space so I don't know my exact scores from a few weeks ago, but I did some calculations and it must have been something like: Anna 163, Sasha 164, Kamila 161 for the FS. But I put Anna ahead for the SP so she ended up winning the whole thing. But, I might be biased in certain ways so I could understand any swapping of the three for any segment honestly.

Anna received 159 at Europeans with one fall one DR and one UR jump (and still had higher PCS than the one graciously given by you). So, just four points better marks, hell yeah

 

[Novalis]

My computer was running out of space so I don't know my exact scores from a few weeks ago, but I did some calculations and it must have been something like: Anna 163, Sasha 164, Kamila 161 for the FS. But I put Anna ahead for the SP so she ended up winning the whole thing. But, I might be biased in certain ways so I could understand any swapping of the three for any segment honestly.

I did my own scoring as well couple of days after the competition. I didn't save the actual protocols. But these are the FP ones:

Anna 173, Kamila 166, Sasha 164. So it was closer, but in the final score Sasha was still well behind Kami, as I gave her an 'e' in the short.

I don't claim to be unbiased either

 

[flanker]

I did my own scoring as well couple of days after the competition. I didn't save the actual protocols. But these are the FP ones:

Anna 173, Kamila 166, Sasha 164. So it was closer, but in the final score Sasha was still well behind Kami, as I gave her an 'e' in the short.

I don't claim to be unbiased either

Maybe nine volunteers on GS could assemble into a "panel of judges" for some competitions and make the "local" scores (plus eventually 3 more for tech panel)

 

[Novalis]

I have a feeling mods are afraid of this thread.

I have called out for mods once. Not to report anyone, but to ask about Liza Berestovskaya's lost fan fest (I made a new one). You just press the "report" on someone's post and write what you want to say. Worked splendidly.