2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[Vlad Karigov]

It is really sad to see how, due to the lack of common sense of her parents, a new skater is destroyed by being trained by someone who is several things except a coach... Zhilina is lost on the track, it shows that she lives with pressure, with discomfort and that what he least wants is the publicist by his side... how sad. Hopefully this serves as an example so that no girl goes to that camp knowing that she is attending - based on the statistics of recent years - her retirement as a skater...

 

[Fluture]

It is really sad to see how, due to the lack of common sense of her parents, a new skater is destroyed by being trained by someone who is several things except a coach...

She‘s primarily trained by her own mother, though...

 

[Vlad Karigov]

She‘s primarily trained by her own mother, though...

That's right, but after firing Rozanov she wanted to go with her daughter to find a new camp, however, she did not just leave because the publicist sold her a paradise of training environment for her daughter... and not seen today absolutely none of it... she's totally abandoned...

 

[Shayuki]

Ok, now we can get out our Swedish flags. Glad none of you jinxed it. We will ignore the fact that I was also posting like it was a done deal. Haha

“Tuktamysheva is set to become the first non-teenage Russian female singles skater to compete at worlds since Alena Leonova, who did so at 22 in 2013.”

What can you say, what can you freaking say?

The oldest since Elena Sokolova, it seems.

 

[readernick]

She‘s primarily trained by her own mother, though...

Additionally, she was very unsteady when Eteri trained her, too. It is just her personality. She isn't a natural competitor. She over-rotates jumps because she attacks them with too much power when she is nervous. It leads to falls. It isn't an issue most skaters have, but it is her problem. I do think someone should train her beside her mother. Her mom is obviously a very talented technician, but someone needs to help her come up with a better plan. She shouldn't be putting a 3A in the SP in juniors. It is too risky for a nervous competitor like Zhilina.

 

[Fantik]

Mastery of the blades?! Are you kidding?! Just because Aliona has better skating skills than Sasha or Anna, it doesn't make her the master of the blades! Is she considered master of blades in Russia? Because in Canada or Japan no one would call her that . Her SS is far from that type of title.

This is what we call mastery of the blades in Canada. You see how efficiently Patrick is doing his crossovers to produce speed? 2 pushes and he's already at the other side of the rink. Unlike Aliona's slow speed stsq and how she constantly looses speed with her edge-work in her stsq, Patrick actually utilizes his edges to GAIN speed.

When Aliona could do the same quality footwork as Patrick Chan's, the same deep edges and the same speed and fluidity, we can have a discussion about mastery of the blades.
But until then I would rate her SS only above average at best

I can't speak on what they think in Russia about Aliona's superior skating skills. See, nobody mandated me to do so and I doubt that anyone would ever do so, since I never visited that country.

Correct me if I am wrong, but in 45 years Canadian female skaters won the one and only golden medal at the Worlds. In view of absence of real achievements all you can talk about, guys, are some mythical superior Canadian edges. LoL!

 

[Fluture]

Additionally, she was very unsteady when Eteri trained her, too. It is just her personality. She isn't a natural competitor. She over-rotates jumps because she attacks them with too much power when she is nervous. It leads to falls. It isn't an issue most skaters have, but it is her problem. I do think someone should train her beside her mother. Her mom is obviously a very talented technician, but someone needs to help her come up with a better plan. She shouldn't be putting a 3A in the SP in juniors. It is too risky for a nervous competitor like Zhilina.

I do think there is valid criticism to Plushenko and his team for some of the choices they have made, not only when it comes to Kostornaya but Zhilina here as well. Bringing in a new advisor/coach in Morozov and then not having the two coaches communicate with each other is reckless and potentially dangerous. I‘m talking about Zhilina being told to start her program skating in another direction and her mother later on scolding her for it because she‘d had no idea. For an already nervous competitor - and a kid at that - this must be so confusing and it just shows a lack of professionalism. The 3A in the SP is another issue - obviously she can do it in training but in competition she falls even on other triples. If she had just skated a clean SP at Nationals and here with a 2A, 3F, 3Lz+3T, she would have placed a lot higher and had a better chance at making the national team next season.

On the other hand, I think it‘s pretty silly and overdramatic to attribute all of these skaters‘ troubles to Plushenko, as if he‘s personally ruining them. Like you said, Veronika‘s not a natural competitor and being primarily coached by your own mother is also always a challenge. So, why is this Plushenko‘s fault? He can‘t change her personality, it‘s something she‘ll have to grow into.

The lack of overall experience from most coaches at the camp there is concerning but I don‘t think everything‘s bad either. They seem to have pretty good conditions there, specialists and ice time. It‘s just that routine comes with experience and vice versa and they have to find a common ground. Maybe the transfer of so many top talents was too soon but I doubt the project‘s failed from the start. Or at least I hope it isn‘t..

 

[nussnacker]

Additionally, she was very unsteady when Eteri trained her, too. It is just her personality

Correct me if I’m wrong, but unsteady meant some minor mistakes, not these kinds of meltdowns she is having lately, where she ends up dead last. Let’s not pretend it’s the same thing.
Akatieva also wasn’t super consistent last season, even lost to Veronika once. This season she has shown a massive improvement in consistency of her jumps, for Veronika it unfortunately went in the other direction.

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

Wow! I just watched Sofia Akatieva's SP and I have to say she's improved a lot since Junior Nats. At Junior Nats I was kind of underwhelmed by her because it really didn't look like she was performing but today she seemed so much more natural and really used her face in the step sequence + hydro-blade.

 

[Minz]

I don’t know if this is already been said, but according to this NBC article, Russia has officially named the world team.

1. Anna Shcherbakova
2. Alexandra Trusova
3. Elizaveta Tuktamysheva

I don’t know about any alternaties though. I’ll check sports.ru and edit if there is news

EDIT: Just checked sports.ru. There is This article, which announces the world team, but nothing about alternaties.

 

[readernick]

I do think there is valid criticism to Plushenko and his team for some of the choices they have made, not only when it comes to Kostornaya but Zhilina here as well. Bringing in a new advisor/coach in Morozov and then not having the two coaches communicate with each other is reckless and potentially dangerous. I‘m talking about Zhilina being told to start her program skating in another direction and her mother later on scolding her for it because she‘d had no idea. For an already nervous competitor - and a kid at that - this must be so confusing and it just shows a lack of professionalism. The 3A in the SP is another issue - obviously she can do it in training but in competition she falls even on other triples. If she had just skated a clean SP at Nationals and here with a 2A, 3F, 3Lz+3T, she would have placed a lot higher and had a better chance at making the national team next season.

On the other hand, I think it‘s pretty silly and overdramatic to attribute all of these skaters‘ troubles to Plushenko, as if he‘s personally ruining them. Like you said, Veronika‘s not a natural competitor and being primarily coached by your own mother is also always a challenge. So, why is this Plushenko‘s fault? He can‘t change her personality, it‘s something she‘ll have to grow into.

The lack of overall experience from most coaches at the camp there is concerning but I don‘t think everything‘s bad either. They seem to have pretty good conditions there, specialists and ice time. It‘s just that routine comes with experience and vice versa and they have to find a common ground. Maybe the transfer of so many top talents was too soon but I doubt the project‘s failed from the start. Or at least I hope it isn‘t..

I don't know if Plushenko is providing a good training environment or not. I am certainly not a Plushenko fan. There are likely things that need to change. (like Zhilina should not primarily be coached by her mom) However, I just don't like the overreaction people here have to things like this. Skaters struggle. All skaters struggle at some point from competition nerves, or growth issues, or injury. In addition, it is normal for skaters to struggle for the first year after a coaching change. It is a change in a training environment, a change in a coaching style, perhaps a change in technique. I would just say people shouldn't overreact and suggest a skater immediately change coaches. Frequent coaching changes tends to lead to long-term problems. Give the skaters 18 months or so... if improvement is not seen by next year at this time perhaps a change should be made.

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

My main issue with the Zhilina thing thus far is the fact that her mom doesn't know that Morozov told her to start the program in the other direction. Like doesn't her mom coach her too? Shouldn't she be present in training? And it would make less sense if Morozov told her to do so without any practice beforehand.

 

[Shayuki]

Wow! I just watched Sofia Akatieva's SP and I have to say she's improved a lot since Junior Nats. At Junior Nats I was kind of underwhelmed by her because it really didn't look like she was performing but today she seemed so much more natural and really used her face in the step sequence + hydro-blade.

Yeah, she was absolutely breathtaking today. And very confident.

 

[Shayuki]

My main issue with the Zhilina thing thus far is the fact that her mom doesn't know that Morozov told her to start the program in the other direction. Like doesn't her mom coach her too? Shouldn't she be present in training? And it would make less sense if Morozov told her to do so without any practice beforehand.

My main issue is that they keep having her do layouts too difficult for her so she keeps having a bad experience after bad experience. Especially with her fragile personality I think they should be playing it a lot more safe. She clearly is afraid of competing right now, and of course if you are afraid that you'll fail then it becomes all the more likely... She might never be able to become one of those top notch competitors who deliver when it's needed the most, but they surely aren't making it any easier for her.

She indeed wasn't consistent last season either and almost never was skating clean, but it wasn't like now where any cleanly performed elements are a rarity.

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

My main issue is that they keep having her do layouts too difficult for her so she keeps having a bad experience after bad experience. Especially with her fragile personality I think they should be playing it a lot more safe. She clearly is afraid of competing right now, and of course if you are afraid that you'll fail then it becomes all the more likely... She might never be able to become one of those top notch competitors who deliver when it's needed the most, but they surely aren't making it any easier for her.

She indeed wasn't consistent last season either and almost never was skating clean, but it wasn't like now where any cleanly performed elements are a rarity.

well yes from a competition perspective that's what I'm worried about too - but in assessing the coaching situation... what is going on at AOP! She needs to be in a good coaching situation before getting to a good competition state.

 

[chasingneverland]

I disagree. Kamila, ok. But Daria is basically skating how Kostornaia was as a junior, with slightly less magic. And Maiia hasn't been impressive to me until today, definitely not more so than the 3A as juniors or first year seniors.

The 3A weren't doing this at 14, not as a collective unit. Kamila is far and away better - she's arguably better than they were at 15/16 and all of them got better then they were as juniors. Kamila at 13 (last year) almost broke all the records that they set at 14/15 and Daria wasn't far behind. They also matched what the 3A did internationally - winning everything and they didn't have two international seasons (although neither did Anna). Daria is also a year younger than Alena was - Alena was 15 in her last junior seasons. As for Maiia falling all the time, perhaps I should draw your attention to the JGPF for both Sasha and Anna, where between the two of them only one quad was landed cleanly. Anna in particular fell ALL the time at 14. I think she landed her 4Lz cleanly in one competition out of the first four. And Sasha was barely better. Kamila at 14 is more consistent and Maiia is right about the same. The difference is no one and especially not 14 year olds had done quads so it was groundbreaking. Now it's expected.

As for your questions, however... I was toying with a combination of raising the age limit and changing the scoring system, maybe creating separate panels for PCS and TES and having computers instead of humans do the analysis in terms of URs, edges, stuff like that. It‘s been done in Japan, they measured height, speed and length of jumps quite accurately and having actual numbers and parameters on what constitutes “good height and length“, might make it less subjective. Also, more camera angles. Just..keeping up with the times a bit.

If we talk about PCS - while those will always contain a subjective portion - speed and ice coverage have already been calculated using programs.

Now, the raise of the age limit could admittedly lead to a few “lost generations“ but eventually, it might force coaches to focus on more sustainable methods that would allow peaking at a later age. If you know you will have to hold on until you’re 17, you might not push yourself too far as a 14 year old, allowing a more gradual growth, rather than the explosive one we’re seeint today, where the rise is extremely fast but then so is the fall afterwards. Of course, I do realise that there might be severe drawbacks to this (e.g. too many talents stuck in juniors for too long, forcing them to give up sooner) and this is all very theoretical. But since we‘ve had this discussion ad nauseam, I‘m not going to rehash any more arguments.

It‘s also not just about someone beating my favorites. This happens all the time everywhere in life and it‘s completely normal. There’s always someone who’s better than you. My problem is not that Medvedeva was outclassed entirely, or Kostornaya after her, or that Petrosyan will be in the future - my problem is that it happens at a rate that I, personally, do not consider normal. For me, I just cannot wrap my head around the fact that 15 would be the peak age in any serious sport. But this is a matter of opinions and preferences. I don‘t mind watching the occasional teenager or kid excel in a sport, it can be pretty exciting to watch a youngster beat a grown adult. But when it‘s a sport where still competing as an adult is the rarity...well, I find it problematic.

So, all I can offer are a few vague suggestions and more complaints than solutions. I‘m aware of that. And it‘s why I‘m at least planning on making this my last post on the matter. It‘s a little off topic anyway.


How so, though? Skaters used to be around for many years not so long ago. Even in federations that regularly churned out new Champions. It’s just recently that the rising TES level has made younger and younger bodies required to pull off these feats before the wear and tear becomes too much.

And for other sports - well, even those that were pointed out to me as having traditionally young peaking ages had Olympic Champions in their 20s in 2016. And winning Worlds 8 years in a row is not what my argument is about - it‘s about having the capability of being in the running for a World’s title for a longer time than one or two years.

The thing with using computers is: (1) It increases the time taken to score a program because they would have to look at each jump. (They don't actually right now - they only look at the ones that are flagged as needing to be looked at. The rest are done live.) (2) It's not completely accurate unless you can install the cameras LITERALLY everywhere in the arena otherwise it'll be guessing and will make errors all the time and how is that different from people - and small federations won't have the money for that or the personnel. It would take even more money and people to be able to hold a competition meaning fewer would be able to do so and you'll have less competitions or they would raise costs to smaller competitions and then skaters of smaller federations wouldn't be able to go to them which is often when they get their technical minimums. (3) It's not as simple as "keeping up with the times" lol - it's actually INCREDIBLY complex and complicated - as other sports have found. And for that I'll use the example of GLT for soccer - which is much simpler than what you're proposing and still failed to be implemented. GLT (goal line technology) essentially just had to measure whether a goal was scored or not. In this the cameras just have to measure if one (1) object - a soccer ball - has completely crossed a single plane - the goal line. That's it. Fun fact: this is soooo expensive that only a few major leagues in Europe, where they can afford to pay players millions, can afford to use it - and it has messed up on several different occasions. Hawk-Eye and GoalControl are the most frequently used. GoalControl requires 7 cameras at each goal to correctly triangulate the position of one (1) soccer ball and it's size is standard. It also costs up to 500,000 euros to implement either Hawk-Eye or GoalControl. In this case - figure skating - you're dealing with multiple jumps and people of multiple sizes where more than one plane needs to be evaluated - both height and distance - and they won't be standard or stationary on either. Not to mention URs and edges.

So, your argument about knowing skaters need to peak later allowing for more gradual growth is throughly refuted by Sofia A. She has an unfortunately timed birthday and won't turn senior until the 2022-2023 season. Therefore she'll need to maintain her senior peak - if she wants to go to the Olympics in 2026 for three years. However, last year she wasn't even age eligible for juniors and her FS had two 3As and a 4T. And she's been landing quads and 3As two years since she was about 11/12. And that's knowing she had TWO years before she was junior eligible and she had a 3Lz-3Lo combo THREE years before being junior eligible and that she wouldn't turn senior eligible until 2022 and wouldn't go to the Olympics until 2026. (Viktoria Z has been doing the same thing and they're not the only ones.) They are realistic contenders to beat Kamila who can beat Anna and Sasha and Kamila isn't even age eligible!

NOTE: The argument for still learning 3A/quads younger even when you're years and years from getting to do them in international competition has to do with it's easier to maintain skills than learn new ones. You still have to go through growth sports and puberty but at least you've already learned how to do the skill - so your muscle memory is more engrained. Learning new ones afterwards is soo much harder and not just from a technical/aerodynamic perspective where you've already started incorporating it into muscle memory. It's harder from a mental aspect as well - kids are fearless whereas the older you get the more afraid you are. That not only makes it so you're more afraid to try new skills because you have to get over a greater mental block it also makes falls and injuries so much worse because it often means you'll tense up and land harder making injuries worse. Also you're heavier so there's more force behind it when you fall and more pressure exerted.Also if you do get injured you have more underlying chronic injuries, more wear and tear already to deal with so injuries are compounded even more. So no, raising the age won't help. It'll (1) make juniors even more intense and you'll actually have skaters who won't even make it to the upper echelons in juniors rather than seniors and will retire before ever even accomplishing anything and juniors and (2) make it so that so many more won't even make it to seniors.

As for the other sports, I'll answer that post in a while and show you the similarities.

 

[macy]

As much as i would have loved to see Aliona make the team, it wasn't realistic, and i'm happy for Liza. she earned her spot fair and square, and there really wasn't any justification to deny her the spot.

i'm extremely proud of Aliona for sticking it out and fighting through that program. she was visibly fatigued and likely left a good portion of the choreography out due to that, but she was mostly clean and she should be proud of herself. she had a really tough year and she came back and showed a solid skate. that's what a champion does. and i'm SUPER happy she is now wanting to stay longer than her original plan, retiring after next season. she has so much more to give to the sport and i'm so excited she's reconsidering.

i think she and her team now need to go back to the drawing board and make a plan for the next 11 months. not being on the world team gives her some extra time to begin preparations and getting her stamina back, and i hope it lights a fire within her to come back guns blazing next season. she has the opportunity.

it was 100% Maiia's day and it's awesome to see her put together a clean skate with 2 quads, which she's never come close to doing before. however i need to see her keep delivering next season for me to really consider her a threat to the olympic team. one great skate doesn't automatically make her a contender, but she's on the right track and i hope she continues the upward trend.

Daria is continuing to keep her name in the mix for next season for sure. she's become a pretty consistent skater this year, but she needs a 3A or quad next season. but she is so nice to watch- her skating is so light, graceful, fluid and soft.

Kamila did the experimenting at the right time. she didn't have anything to lose and this is all in preparation for next year where it will really matter. good for her for trying a harder layout and seeing where she needs to improve for next season, smart move.

now i will be cheering on our world team and wishing everyone else a productive off season

 

[Scott512]

Yeah. Eteri also has them do mini competitions too. So they're always competing and getting better.

That's why I don't think any of them are particularly shaken by what each other do - they already knew they could.

Ok, now we can get out our Swedish flags. Glad none of you jinxed it. We will ignore the fact that I was also posting like it was a done deal. Haha

“Tuktamysheva is set to become the first non-teenage Russian female singles skater to compete at worlds since Alena Leonova, who did so at 22 in 2013.”

What can you say, what can you freaking say?

Congrats to Liza. But aliona leaving TT really opened the worlds door for her and Liza kicked the door in!

The main thing at this point is for Aliona to get healthy this offseason get some kind of experience going to Worlds as of the first alternate as I expect her to be and come back stronger next season. if she gets healthy I expect her to get her 3A back in the offseason. If she does not it will not look good for young Sergei. He is coaching her Plushie is more of the advisor

I think Aliona skated okay yesterday. Hopefully it's something to build on. I would rather watch her skate than anybody and that's the best compliment a skater can get.

 

[chasingneverland]

I was talking about Sasha Cohen, not Trusova.
I did say in my previous comments that Trusova could have a longer career, didn't I?

I missed that, sorry. It's the Russian ladies thread so I automatically thought of Sasha T.

 

[starlight97]

i'm extremely proud of Aliona for sticking it out and i'm SUPER happy she is now wanting to stay longer than her original plan, retiring after next season.

Where did she say that?
All I heard was after her SP: "After today there is no tomorrow". Then after her FS: "I thought it was the end but now I have a more optimistic outlook"