2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[flanker]

Little more dancing with Anna, Daria, Sofia:

TikTok - Make Your Day

 

[Briananing]

Its an EXHIBITION. Kim Yuna doesnt do any jumps in her skating show and the crowd still scream for her and i dont think she feels shameful for being an olympic champion with no jumps. You're talking like Alina is out of a shape. She still looks athletic to me and it wasnt like she was huffing through her program.

Well to be fair, Yuna was trying to enjoy a "normal life" by doing muggle things, went back to school and barely touching the ice before she decided that she had enough rest and wanted to skate again 4 years later. Obviously she needs a lot of time to catch up, her fans know this and is grateful enough that she is back on the ice. After all Yuna's 2 last seasons as a figure skater were more of a gift from her to her fans, nation and juniors rather than for her own goal and desire.

So, Yuna situation can't be compared to Alina here who keep doing show and training albait not as intense. The fans expectation is clearly different. If Alina keeps falling like yesterday, it would certaintly hurt her reputation. I mean, who want a champion on their shows who keep falling down on every jump elements. She clearly was unable to jump her flip since the start of this season, why are they still keeping it is a mystery to me. I think rather than risking a fall, doing a more intricate no jump program or doing jumps that is comfortable for her should be the priority.

 

[Scott512]

Wait, wait. She is an Olympic gold medalist amd World Champion. Her skating is not exceptional for singles stadard? All I can say is, you have pretty high stadards if you regard the best ladies single skater of the past Olympic cycle as somehow not up to the mark.

Is is true, though, that ice dance is a separate discipline with its own skill set (edging, timing, partnering, lifts, etc.) A skater who excels in singles skills (especially jumping) will not automatically achieve equal success switching to a new game.

Exactly man!

People talk about the ladies in dance having great skating skills. If they did they would have skated singles a lot longer. Aliona has great skating skills. Very few can equal her skating skills. No lady in dance that's for sure. I think to think that Alina arguably the greatest female skater of her cycle and one of all time greats (she won everything) could not learn edging and timing for dance is preposterous!

It probably won't happen Alina will probably just skate in shows the rest of her career in that is fine. She certainly deserves to do what she wants with her career and life and ice dance is probably not on the table. I just brought it up because I thought it would be an interesting topic.

In closing I would you say if Kanysheva and Vasalieva can switch to dance then alina could as well if she wanted to. I doubt she will make the switch from singles to dance like other girls have done but I wonder if it's crossed her mind.

 

[Amei]

So, Yuna situation can't be compared to Alina here who keep doing show and training albait not as intense. The fans expectation is clearly different. If Alina keeps falling like yesterday, it would certaintly hurt her reputation. I mean, who want a champion on their shows who keep falling down on every jump elements. She clearly was unable to jump her flip since the start of this season, why are they still keeping it is a mystery to me. I think rather than risking a fall, doing a more intricate no jump program or doing jumps that is comfortable for her should be the priority.

My comments on Zagitova at the exhibition, had nothing to do with fan expectations but a statement that she had 3 really awful falls (I mean 1 of them ended with her on her stomach, very lucky she didn't smack her head on the ice) and was unnecessarily risking injury and she should drop the jumps down to doubles (less risky) or remove them, at least she should have done 1 of those 2 things after her second bad splat of the same night.

 

[hannahbanana]

Exactly man!

People talk about the ladies in dance having great skating skills. If they did they would have skated singles a lot longer. Aliona has great skating skills. Very few can equal her skating skills. No lady in dance that's for sure. I think to think that Alina arguably the greatest female skater of her cycle and one of all time greats (she won everything) could not learn edging and timing for dance is preposterous!

It probably won't happen Alina will probably just skate in shows the rest of her career in that is fine. She certainly deserves to do what she wants with her career and life and ice dance is probably not on the table. I just brought it up because I thought it would be an interesting topic.

In closing I would you say if Kanysheva and Vasalieva can switch to dance then alina could as well if she wanted to. I doubt she will make the switch from singles to dance like other girls have done but I wonder if it's crossed her mind.

Kanysheva and Zagitova had completely different levels of skating skills when they were competing so I’m not sure that comparison is favourable to Zagitova. Alina would be decimated by ice dance judges if she unwisely decided to switch to that discipline. The girl can’t even do crossovers and hops and cheats all her turns, and is very slow with bad posture

 

[silveruskate]

I think it's a bit sad that Alina's skating skills are being slated for no reason when really none of her big fans even brought this topic up themselves or said anything.

On the jumping...when you do doubles everyone starts saying you've lost your triples which isn't nice either. And I think in one of the warm-ups she landed a 3Lz. The simplest thing to say is Eteri won't let her continue to do these jumps when she thinks Alina won't be able to land them.

 

[Fluture]

Exactly man!

People talk about the ladies in dance having great skating skills. If they did they would have skated singles a lot longer.

That’s not how this works.

Aliona has great skating skills. Very few can equal her skating skills. No lady in dance that's for sure.

Kostornaya? Still, not how this works either. I‘d say her skating skills are certainly above average for a single skater but she‘s beaten even by other ladies (Miyahara, IMO, for example), not to mention ice dancers. Those normally have much better skating skills than any of the other disciplines because, you know, that‘s what they‘re drilling everyday.

I think to think that Alina arguably the greatest female skater of her cycle and one of all time greats (she won everything) could not learn edging and timing for dance is preposterous!

Erm. It might not have occurred to you but ice dance is actually a very difficult discipline that requires years and years of practice and effort. You cannot just switch there from single skating any time and expect to make it to the top - the skills expected/needed are vastly different. So, it’s definitely not just the place for single skaters who can‘t land their jumps anymore and suggesting that is pretty disrespectful to actual ice dancers and they time they spent to get to their level. Not to mention rather ignorant as well.

It probably won't happen Alina will probably just skate in shows the rest of her career in that is fine. She certainly deserves to do what she wants with her career and life and ice dance is probably not on the table. I just brought it up because I thought it would be an interesting topic.

In closing I would you say if Kanysheva and Vasalieva can switch to dance then alina could as well if she wanted to. I doubt she will make the switch from singles to dance like other girls have done but I wonder if it's crossed her mind.

Vasilieva switched to pairs, didn‘t she? And Kanysheva actually was known for her good skating skills, Zagitova never was. Yet Kanysheva‘s still struggling - or have you seen her in the top field of Russian ice dance yet, even in juniors? Dance is far from being my favorite discipline but it’s a hard one and I seriously doubt Zagitova - or honestly any of the other Russian ladies, including Kostornaya or Sinitsyna - could make it big there if they started at this point in their careers.

 

[Scott512]

I don't think this debate has a point in this place, guys. Alina is not competing in ice dance, not even expressed any intention to do so. All this was started by one note and for the three days it is just circling in trifle, so I ask to find something more useful, like how to revive the market with VHS.

OK let's change things up. The zagitova rule from 2018 where she back loaded at the Olympics who wasn't nearly as impact Ful as Chen doing 5 quads for the men. So when are the ISU gonna come up with a Chen rule? I think it should be no more than 3 quads for the men in the free skate.They stopped Alina cold in her tracks Because American journalists and figure skaters complained about her back loading. I expect them to do the same after Nathan wins the Olympics it next February. Dont you?

Funny how back loading wasn't an issue until Alina became really really really good.

 

[dhjh811]

That’s not how this works.

Kostornaya? Still, not how this works either. I‘d say her skating skills are certainly above average for a single skater but she‘s beaten even by other ladies (Miyahara, IMO, for example), not to mention ice dancers. Those normally have much better skating skills than any of the other disciplines because, you know, that‘s what they‘re drilling everyday.

Erm. It might not have occurred to you but ice dance is actually a very difficult discipline that requires years and years of practice and effort. You cannot just switch there from single skating any time and expect to make it to the top - the skills expected/needed are vastly different. So, it’s definitely not just the place for single skaters who can‘t land their jumps anymore and suggesting that is pretty disrespectful to actual ice dancers and they time they spent to get to their level. Not to mention rather ignorant as well.


Vasilieva switched to pairs, didn‘t she? And Kanysheva actually was known for her good skating skills, Zagitova never was. Yet Kanysheva‘s still struggling - or have you seen her in the top field of Russian ice dance yet, even in juniors? Dance is far from being my favorite discipline but it’s a hard one and I seriously doubt Zagitova - or honestly any of the other Russian ladies, including Kostornaya or Sinitsyna - could make it big there if they started at this point in their careers.

Exactly. I'm tired of some people viewing ice dance as some easy discipline, especially when they suggest a singles skater switch to ice dance once they get no longer competitive for singles skating. I just wonder what people who say these things think about ice dance... The top tier of skating skills for singles skaters would be considered bang average for ice dance.

 

[chasingneverland]

OK let's change things up. The zagitova rule from 2018 where she back loaded at the Olympics who wasn't nearly as impact Ful as Chen doing 5 quads for the men. So when are the ISU gonna come up with a Chen rule? I think it should be no more than 3 quads for the men in the free skate.They stopped Alina cold in her tracks Because American journalists and figure skaters complained about her back loading. I expect them to do the same after Nathan wins the Olympics it next February. Dont you?

Funny how back loading wasn't an issue until Alina became really really really good.

First of all, this is an absurd and ridiculous comment/arguement.

Second of all, they did come up with a Chen rule. Chen is the reason that you can't do repeat more than one type of quad without Zayaking. Especially as Chen actually didn't like 3A's and the rule almost forces you to do two 3As and 2 quads to maximize your BV whereas Hanyu did really like the 3A.

So the ISU actually DID come up with a Chen rule. It was at the same time too - after the 2018 Olympics. Arguably the rule is what DID force Chen to solidify all 5 quads - so he could do 6.

 

[chasingneverland]

I think it's a bit sad that Alina's skating skills are being slated for no reason when really none of her big fans even brought this topic up themselves or said anything.

On the jumping...when you do doubles everyone starts saying you've lost your triples which isn't nice either. And I think in one of the warm-ups she landed a 3Lz. The simplest thing to say is Eteri won't let her continue to do these jumps when she thinks Alina won't be able to land them.

This. Eteri isn't an idiot. She lets her skaters try difficult jumps that they can't always land but she never let's them just throw jumps that they're not landing in practice. Alina DID land a triple in warm-up.

 

[chasingneverland]

That’s not how this works.

Kostornaya? Still, not how this works either. I‘d say her skating skills are certainly above average for a single skater but she‘s beaten even by other ladies (Miyahara, IMO, for example), not to mention ice dancers. Those normally have much better skating skills than any of the other disciplines because, you know, that‘s what they‘re drilling everyday.

Erm. It might not have occurred to you but ice dance is actually a very difficult discipline that requires years and years of practice and effort. You cannot just switch there from single skating any time and expect to make it to the top - the skills expected/needed are vastly different. So, it’s definitely not just the place for single skaters who can‘t land their jumps anymore and suggesting that is pretty disrespectful to actual ice dancers and they time they spent to get to their level. Not to mention rather ignorant as well.


Vasilieva switched to pairs, didn‘t she? And Kanysheva actually was known for her good skating skills, Zagitova never was. Yet Kanysheva‘s still struggling - or have you seen her in the top field of Russian ice dance yet, even in juniors? Dance is far from being my favorite discipline but it’s a hard one and I seriously doubt Zagitova - or honestly any of the other Russian ladies, including Kostornaya or Sinitsyna - could make it big there if they started at this point in their careers.

This. You can't just wake up one day and decide you're going to dominate pairs or ice dance or any other discipline - no matter how talented you are in any of the other disciplines. Saying someone CAN shows a preposterous level of ignorance and hubris and a fundamental misunderstanding of the sport(s).

Twizzles for example are difficult even for the top athletes in ice dance who have devoted decades to it much less someone who has never done so.

Also, this whole argument is absurd. Alina has never said she even wants to compete again, much less compete in a different discipline. And while I understand people wanting to still see her compete - I do too if she wants too - she has never given any indication that she plans to return to competition. I also understand people recognizing that the ladies figure skating is deep and Alina even if she were to return to 2018 form would struggle to make it out of Russia. That's true. However, that doesn't mean it's realistic to assume she would in ice dance either, when the only translatable skill is one of her weakest and while ice dance isn't as deep as ladies, it's also not at all devoid of top talent. Again, this is not a slight at Alina - I love her - but all skaters have weaknesses. Furthermore, Alina herself has never even given an iota of indication that she plans to go to ice dance at all, so this entire discussion is ridiculous.

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

This. You can't just wake up one day and decide you're going to dominate pairs or ice dance or any other discipline - no matter how talented you are in any of the other disciplines. Saying someone CAN shows a preposterous level of ignorance and hubris and a fundamental misunderstanding of the sport(s).

Twizzles for example are difficult even for the top athletes in ice dance who have devoted decades to it much less someone who has never done so.

I'm not an ice dancer but I feel like twizzles wouldn't actually be the most difficult thing to master. The pattern steps seem really difficult to grasp (i mean come on none of the top ice dance teams got a level 4 on their finnstep after two years!) Also, singles skaters already do twizzles anyways. But yes, certainly it takes lots of work to be at the top of any discipline. But, there are some really swift and successful changes in recent memory. Vika Vasilieva for example, got triple throws and twists down after like what... half a year of switching? Maybe even less? Obviously that's not quite enough to "dominate" but still. Also with like Kadyrova/Balchenko. Iasmina switched only two seasons ago and now they are the fifth/sixth best Russian team, aka one of the top ten teams in the World. Also just four seasons after switching, F/G got seventh at Worlds and will probably dominate after 2022. It certainly is possible, but not simple.

 

[Amei]

OK let's change things up. The zagitova rule from 2018 where she back loaded at the Olympics who wasn't nearly as impact Ful as Chen doing 5 quads for the men. So when are the ISU gonna come up with a Chen rule? I think it should be no more than 3 quads for the men in the free skate.They stopped Alina cold in her tracks Because American journalists and figure skaters complained about her back loading. I expect them to do the same after Nathan wins the Olympics it next February. Dont you?

Funny how back loading wasn't an issue until Alina became really really really good.

I don't think that the back-loading rule was 100% because of Zagitova - numerous junior skaters were doing the 100% backloading as well, additionally the spirit of the bonus points for back-loading elements was to encourage balanced programs, Eteri saw the weakness of the back-loading rule and trained her skaters to do everything in the second half of the program and the programs weren't balanced it was a miniscule amount of elements then jump-jump-jump to cram into the bonus section. It only came about after the Olympic season because that was the first year it was done in the senior ranks, the junior ranks I feel gets a bit ignored by the ISU in regards to rule changes.

 

[Amei]

I think it's a bit sad that Alina's skating skills are being slated for no reason when really none of her big fans even brought this topic up themselves or said anything.

On the jumping...when you do doubles everyone starts saying you've lost your triples which isn't nice either. And I think in one of the warm-ups she landed a 3Lz. The simplest thing to say is Eteri won't let her continue to do these jumps when she thinks Alina won't be able to land them.

Well the topic of skating skills came up because someone mentioned that she should switch to dance that she would be excellent in that and Russia could use another strong team. Skating skills are generally the most translatable skill between singles skating and ice dance which is why they are getting discussed.

On the jumping...when you do doubles everyone starts saying you've lost your triples which isn't nice either. And I think in one of the warm-ups she landed a 3Lz. The simplest thing to say is Eteri won't let her continue to do these jumps when she thinks Alina won't be able to land them.

Well better to drop down to safely landing doubles in an exhibition than injure yourself trying to show you can still do triples (which I repeat my comment was about multiple really bad falls and injuries)

 

[Amei]

I'm not an ice dancer but I feel like twizzles wouldn't actually be the most difficult thing to master. The pattern steps seem really difficult to grasp (i mean come on none of the top ice dance teams got a level 4 on their finnstep after two years!) Also, singles skaters already do twizzles anyways. But yes, certainly it takes lots of work to be at the top of any discipline. But, there are some really swift and successful changes in recent memory. Vika Vasilieva for example, got triple throws and twists down after like what... half a year of switching? Maybe even less? Obviously that's not quite enough to "dominate" but still. Also with like Kadyrova/Balchenko. Iasmina switched only two seasons ago and now they are the fifth/sixth best Russian team, aka one of the top ten teams in the World. Also just four seasons after switching, F/G got seventh at Worlds and will probably dominate after 2022. It certainly is possible, but not simple.

I would think probably the most difficult thing of pairs or ice dance, besides the lady learning to trust her partner to do all the crazy things they do with lifts/throws/death spirals is to do elements in sync with another human being.

 

[flanker]

I don't think that the back-loading rule was 100% because of Zagitova - numerous junior skaters were doing the 100% backloading as well, additionally the spirit of the bonus points for back-loading elements was to encourage balanced programs, Eteri saw the weakness of the back-loading rule and trained her skaters to do everything in the second half of the program and the programs weren't balanced it was a miniscule amount of elements then jump-jump-jump to cram into the bonus section. It only came about after the Olympic season because that was the first year it was done in the senior ranks, the junior ranks I feel gets a bit ignored by the ISU in regards to rule changes.

The only skaters with fully backloaded short and free programs I'm aware of were Alina and Aliona. There were several others with fully backloaded short programs (Evgenia, Daria Panenkova), but I don't know about "numerous junior skaters doing 100 % backloading" as for the free.

 

[Scott512]

I don't think that the back-loading rule was 100% because of Zagitova - numerous junior skaters were doing the 100% backloading as well, additionally the spirit of the bonus points for back-loading elements was to encourage balanced programs, Eteri saw the weakness of the back-loading rule and trained her skaters to do everything in the second half of the program and the programs weren't balanced it was a miniscule amount of elements then jump-jump-jump to cram into the bonus section. It only came about after the Olympic season because that was the first year it was done in the senior ranks, the junior ranks I feel gets a bit ignored by the ISU in regards to rule changes.

OK it was 99% because of Zagitova.

Alina won Russian nationals back loading nobody cared she won Europeans back loading nobody cared then she won the Olympics back loading many non Russian people cared. That's why the rule was changed not because a couple of juniors from the same rink were back loading. I in fact predicted this right after the Olympics when Ashley an American journalist were complaining about the back loading rule and how it wasn't real figure skating it wasn't a real program. Blah blah blah.

Fortunately alina ended up winning everything anyway. Because if she didn't I would have put an * next to it.

 

[Scott512]

Well the topic of skating skills came up because someone mentioned that she should switch to dance that she would be excellent in that and Russia could use another strong team. Skating skills are generally the most translatable skill between singles skating and ice dance which is why they are getting discussed.




Well better to drop down to safely landing doubles in an exhibition than injure yourself trying to show you can still do triples (which I repeat my comment was about multiple really bad falls and injuries)

I was that someone you mentioned.
The topic was not supposed to turn into an arguement or denigrate Alina.

What you say makes sense.

And I get what you say about Alina possibly not jumping triples and just going to doubles.Hopefully she becomes more consistent with her triple jumps but if not then doing doubles is fine. Thousands and thousands of people at these exhibitions just want to watch her skate. Some in attendance can't even tell the difference between a triple and a double and don't care. When you are digging 100 go 500' away from the ice it's hard to tell what jumping is. No one is going to clap any less hard for AZ if she starts doing doubles instead of triples. anyway.

When is the next show? The 1st show was wonderful.

 

[Amei]

The only skaters with fully backloaded short and free programs I'm aware of were Alina and Aliona. There were several others with fully backloaded short programs (Evgenia, Daria Panenkova), but I don't know about "numerous junior skaters doing 100 % backloading" as for the free.

Below is from the junior nationals prior to the rule change 2 of 18 skaters did less than 5 jumps in the back-loaded section: https://fsrussia.ru/results/1718/junnat1718/e__Scores.pdf

vs. at the Olympics that year where only 4 of the top 15 did 5 jumps backloaded, everyone else was 3 or 4: http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1718/owg2018/OWG2018_LadiesSingleSkating_FS_Scores.pdf

		Number of Jumps backloaded
1​	Alena KOSTORNAYA	7 of 7​
2​	Stanislava KONSTANTINOVA	5 of 7​
3​	Alexandra Trusova	6 of 7 (her first jump was a quad attempt)​
4​	Anastasia GUBANOVA	6 of 7​
5​	Daria PANENKOVA	7 of 7​
6​	Victoria VASILIEVA	5 of 7​
7​	Anastasia TARAKANOVA	6 of 7​
8​	Alena KANYSHEVA	5 of 7​
9​	Elizaveta NUGUMANOVA	5 of 7​
10​	Ksenia SINITSYNA	5 of 7​
11​	Anastasia GULYAKOVA	5 of 7​
12​	Anastasia KOSTYUK	5 of 7​
13​	Victoria SAFONOVA	5 of 7​
14​	Ksenia TSIBINOVA	5 of 7​
15​	Sophia Moroz	6 of 7​
16​	Anna SHCHERBAKOVA	6 of 7 (given the location of her first jump I suspect she might not have been paying attention to her time)​
17​	Alexandra CHERPAKOVA	4 of 7​
18​	Maria PAVLOVA	4 of 7