2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[chasingneverland]

Absolutely. I didn't say there wasn't a deficit. I'm just saying she's not been cast adrift like she could have if international judges had the chance to hose her this season. No international competitions helps her and bought her time.

Maiia has a lot of work to do.

Yeah.

It actually helps Aliona too. She misses one (1) competition internationally.

 

[Paulipau]

Definitely if Maiia was at worlds and performed as she did at the Cup final, she would have beaten anyone there except Anna, reputation or not. And if her skates at possible GP stages will be clean, the reputation will be there before you say Devils of Tutberidze.

Well, if Sasha skated like she did at Nationals then Maria wouldn't outscore her no way.

And if Daria was at worlds and she would go clean she would only lose to Anna because of politics and reputation.

Her 4T is prerotated 5/8 of a turn and she lands barely past sideways, so it's a clear < jump:

Still looks like 180 to me, second is definitely q tho.

I'm not a huge fan of Maiia but maybe you are picking on her a bit too much?

Isn't it that jumps like loop sal and toe naturally have 180 pre rotation? I'm not a specialist so might be talking bs, could someone confirm?

Tbh I think that pretorations in quads is something that we just have to deal with at the moment, all the quads we saw (from ladies)so far were prerotated 180, even Flips and Lutzes. I wish they werent but well...

 

[chasingneverland]

Well, if Sasha skated like she did at Nationals then Maria wouldn't outscore her no way.

And if Daria was at worlds and she would go clean she would only lose to Anna because of politics and reputation.

Daria would also lose to Anna on sheer base value and difficulty of skates though too. Anna has around 10 points in BV to work with, even with only doing 1 quad.

 

[Paulipau]

Daria would also lose to Anna on sheer base value and difficulty of skates though too. Anna has around 10 points in BV to work with, even with only doing 1 quad.

Ow yeap, i mean there was no quad at Worlds but she still has the Loop.

Daria would get stsq 4 and all spins 4 tho, wouldn't that make up the difference?

 

[silveruskate]

Yeah.

It actually helps Aliona too. She misses one (1) competition internationally.

I hope so! The best I wish for is the judges just see this as a blip and she starts from where she left off with them. Not just PCS but jump GOE and everything. Her jump and spin GOE were completely totalled this season. Starting the season behind Anna on PCS is A-ok.

 

[chasingneverland]

Ow yeap, i mean there was no quad at Worlds but she still has the Loop.

Daria would get stsq 4 and all spins 4 tho, wouldn't that make up the difference?

Yeah Anna's backloaded +Lo combos make so much difference. Anna basically replaces a double with a quad, so even when she falls on the quad she still gets 5.50 points for it whereas Daria has a 2T in there with a BV of 1.3.

No. Anna still gets at least level 3's in step sequences - that's less than a point difference (they're choreographed to be level 4 so she'll at least get level 3). And Anna's spins are usually level 4s. Even when she travels she still hits the other bullet points.

Of note, Daria also has her own edge issues and they're worse than Anna's so if a panel is calling them, it's going to be worse for Daria.

 

[Paulipau]

Yeah Anna's backloaded +Lo combos make so much difference. Anna basically replaces a double with a quad, so even when she falls on the quad she still gets 5.50 points for it whereas Daria has a 2T in there with a BV of 1.3.

No. Anna still gets at least level 3's in step sequences - that's less than a point difference (they're choreographed to be level 4 so she'll at least get level 3). And Anna's spins are usually level 4s. Even when she travels she still hits the other bullet points.

Of note, Daria also has her own edge issues and they're worse than Anna's so if a panel is calling them, it's going to be worse for Daria.

Yeap, Daria really needs that 3A...

Anna botched one spin and got stsq 3 but still, you are right Daria wouldn't outscore that.

 

[chasingneverland]

Yeap, Daria really needs that 3A...

Anna botched one spin and got stsq 3 but still, you are right Daria wouldn't outscore that.

She botched one spin and got a level 2 on it. Her step sequence she lost maybe a point on it.

Even with politics for Daria too, Anna still has too much of a buffer. She essentially had a 10 point gap cushion.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Still looks like 180 to me, second is definitely q tho.

...what? First of all, if you measure the angle between the two points that were linked (the point of leaving the ice and the landing), it is clearly short of 1/4 turn.

The pictures you're looking at are a launch point and landing. You can't tell if the landing is 'q' or not without knowing where the jump left the ice, but that's why I linked it. And as for point of leaving the ice, you also can't tell how pre-rotated it is without knowing where the takeoff started: in this case the skate is pointing at least 1/8 turn past the 180 mark, because the jump started in a direction that's perpendicular to board of the rink seen in the picture (and that board seen in the picture is the shorter "back" board of the rink). Aka, her takeoff started with the skate going backwards towards the side board of the rink. So a 180 takeoff should mean the toepick is facing the side board when it leaves the ice. Look at the skate in that first picture, you can see it is clearly at least 1/8 of a turn past the point of facing the side board, aka 1/8 of a turn past being perpendicular to the back board (which again, is the board that is visible in the captured shot).

Isn't it that jumps like loop sal and toe naturally have 180 pre rotation?

Yes of course, but she goes clearly past that point. It's okay if the jump is rotating further around the circle to compensate, but she doesn't on the Toeloop.

Her 4Sal for example has the same 5/8 pre-rotation, but she's landing within 1/8 turn of backwards, aka landing at least 1/4 turn past the point she left the ice, so she's far enough around the circle for that jump to be seen as a more real quad (even though it's still flawed and lacking some rotation).

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

Haven't come here for a long time and apparently lost little. If I fall asleep and wake up in a hundred years and they ask me what is happening on goldenskate, I will say: Alina's skating skills are being belittled. Alina has some of the best skating skills in women's skating, this is her strong suit. I don’t understand how this can be denied? Some people have their own parallel reality, where Alina has poor skating skills. There may be some problems in Daniil's programs, but you only need to see the bad in order to say that.

lmao. To say "Alina has some of the best skating skills in women's skating" is a lie. It is simply untrue. What constitutes good skating skills? Speed, flow, glide, edge-depth, quality of turns, one-foot skating etc. Now, Alina is not a "slow" skater by any means, but she doesn't have the ability to create speed and maintain it effortlessly. Example, Marin Honda's step sequences or Anastasia Gubanova's Summertime stsq: these ladies are easily able to create speed, even through difficult steps and turns, and they finish their clusters with as much speed, if not more, than when they started. Comparatively, Alina loses speed through her steps. One good example would be the final one-foot cluster in her Cleopatra FS where she really loses a lot of speed and her edges are also very shallow. Which brings me to the next bullet: deep edges. Now I wouldn't say Alina has only shallow edges. Conversely there are times where she has pretty good deep edges, but a lot of these edges are only deep due to leg placement. Again, very different from Marin or Satoko, who are easily able to get on a deep outside or inside edge immediately following a turn. Now quality of turns, Alina has always had a bit of an issue with hopping her turns. She does have a good amount of one-foot skating, but I wouldn't say that that skating is performed with utmost quality. She sometimes lacks speed and flow through her one-foot skating. Just looking at her crossovers, first - not a very aesthetic position but that has nothing to do with SS, and second - they are rather labored. Compared to say Carolina Kostner or Satoko Miyahara or Alena Kostornaia, her crossovers look like they take a lot more effort. And back to speed, Alina gains the same amount of speed with three crossovers that Satoko can gain with one.

So overall, while Alina is fantastic skater with a gorgeous flip jump, beautiful rippons, great spins and lovely interpretation, skating skills is not her strength and saying so is spreading false information.

 

[flanker]

But if you're including hypothetical scenarios, that's not even one that would have had a chance to happen. Because if the girls were senior this year, it would be Kamila going. And if we're going with hypotheticals why are we going with Maiia's best skate all season compared with Anna's worst skate and one of Sasha's worst skates. And if we're doing that well then imagine if Sasha doesn't get injured, Anna and Aliona don't get Covid/pneumonia, etc.

And Kamila wouldn't have tried a skate like that at World's anyway. She tried that skate BECAUSE it was a meaningless skate. And I don't think Maiia's 4T would be called rotated - Anna's and Sasha's quads were getting rotation calls too and have been for years and they got more leniency as trailblazers and also much much more Fed support. Remember Kamila without "ultra-c" elements beat Alysa at the JGPF (although Alyssa was getting under-rotation calls but Maiia will get calls too especially because the Fed is calling her domestically). And Daria without any "ultra-c" elements beat Alysa at Junior World's. Aliona (even though she did have 3As) was at a huge TES disadvantage to Anna and Sasha and she beat them. (She was the equivalent of a quad or two behind them). Yes they made mistakes but Aliona did too actually. So no, it's not just math.

Fun fact: Maiia's 2quad program has a BV of 74.51. Anna's 1 quad program has a BV of 73.68.

Many claims made here came from simply hypothetical scenarios (or even plain personal taste), so what's the sudden problem with that. See below, after all.

My point, pretty obvious one, was opposing the claims concerning Maiia and her chances based on the claim "she does not have the reputation". Such claims and only that made me to do the comparison of Maiia vs. ladies at worlds (not just russian) to point out that Maiia without "reputation" would be clearly scoring higher than many ladies with "reputation", from Japan, US etc. It has no point in saying who would go to worlds, it simply has nothing to do with that for that purpose, which is to point out that so called "reputation" is not that important as the actual performance.

BTW if we will see Maiia in GP, it also completely leaves any objection about "who would go to the worlds" away, she can have many opportunities to compete internationally outside the worlds (and build a reputation, if you like ). So, that's about the pointless complaint about the "hypothetical scenario", which was made in most recent predictions written here and for some reason not approved in a singled case of my comment.

Now to Kamila vs. Alysa. Remember Kamila skated very clean free program at JGPF (while skated not very succesful SP, she was fourth after SP behid Alysa, Daria and Kseniia). Alysa had three UR calls and one fall, none of her ultra-c elements gained her big score. Her final TES was even lower than her BV. Alysa wasn't beaten by Kamila's reputation, but simply because Kamila delivered the best she could have done at that moment and because of her own mistakes. Again it has nothing to do with who is Kamila, Alysa, who has the reputation and so on, but about who skates more clean, gains higher tech score and who makes too many mistakes. BTW Daria, thanks to her better SP, had pretty good chance to win JGPF or at least finish silver, she skated last as usually, but she didn't avoid mistakes and finished third. From that point it is not "Kamila won against three ultra-c elements not having one", but "Kamila with cclean skate without ultra-c elements won over a skate with serious mistaked that devalued the value of all three ultra-c elements".

So, the conclusion, related to Maiia, is not that someone with reputation defeats her if she skates with her full potential, definitely it shouldn't be taken granted. People making scenarios half a year before it even starts simply base their belief on wrong foundations. What you personally think about rotation doesn't concern me at all, again, people made numerous hypothesis about how Anna will be "scored by international judges" and now I read similar trifle about how Maiia will be surely scored internationally.

That's not predicting that Maiia will be 100 % perfect, with no calls, mistakes etc., but simply a statement that if she delivers a clean skate similar to what we've seen already from her, Iˇ'm putting my money on her against anyone who could go against her simply with reputation without similarly strong technical content.

Yes, I did that because I didn't really care for the hypothetical. Because I wasn't dragging Maiia!

I'm actually trending towards what you're saying and saying Maiia still has a chance. The PCS isn't solid yet.

You've literally written (in the post I was reacting to):

My point was that without the pandemic Daria/Kamila would continue to solidify themselves and if Maiia performed like she did this year she would have fallen further behind. I don't think she's as good a performer as Daria/Kamila but she can go in with a clean slate internationally and has a chance to really bring it.

There are clearly several hypothetical claims and you also dragged Maiia into them. After such words what is the problem with the simple consideration about the worth of "reputation" vs. high technical content.

 

[silveruskate]

You've literally written (in the post I was reacting to):

My point was that without the pandemic Daria/Kamila would continue to solidify themselves and if Maiia performed like she did this year she would have fallen further behind. I don't think she's as good a performer as Daria/Kamila but she can go in with a clean slate internationally and has a chance to really bring it.

There are clearly several hypothetical claims and you also dragged Maiia into them. After such words what is the problem with the simple consideration about the worth of "reputation" vs. high technical content.

No I didn't drag Maiia into anything. I wanted to talk about Maiia and was talking about Maiia.

I was just playing with you there! If you look at the thread of the conversation we're specifically talking about PCS. Tech definitely rules but that isn't up to debate. Your hypothetical was about something completely different to the conversation.

And I was saying in a year where Maiia was finding her quads it was good she didn't face scrutiny of international judges on the PCS front. And Daria especially couldn't cash in on her consistency and build a PCS buffer internationally this season.

 

[flanker]

No I didn't drag Maiia into anything. I wanted to talk about Maiia and was talking about Maiia.

Oh yes, now it's completely clear

 

[Vandevska]

It's completely false that Kamila and Daria's reputation is purely domestic. They are the reigning World Junior gold and silver medalists.
There they had PCS of 66.50 and 63.54 which are crazy crazy high for juniors (especially 13 year olds.) Alysa was 60.19 and no one else crossed the 60 threshold (Maiia was 59.54.)

For comparison, in their first World Juniors, Aliona and Sasha were 62.11 and 61.14. The next year Anna and Sasha were 66.29 and 64.44. Different competitions yes, but remember, PCS are more than anything else a reputation score.

Kamila and Daria were already building a reputation internationally, especially Kamila as the ones to beat.

Even despite their international success, people really shouldn't think that what happens in Russia, stays in Russia. It's really not a bubble, the WHOLE world has eyes on them, and it definitely translates to international competition.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

The pre-rotation debate is back again.... as it is every 20 pages and we usually cover the same topics every 20 pages.

From this video looks like Maaii Pre-rotates just over 180 degrees on salchow: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AA5fDvjWFQ . She lands on the circle she jumps on, and therefore I'd say she made the jump despite the fact her technique is a little egregious.

I'd disagree with the vid and say her 4T would definitely deserve a Q .

 

[JazzUp]

Russian WTT team got their negative test results and are allowed to train and compete.

 

[Paulipau]

...what? First of all, if you measure the angle between the two points that were linked (the point of leaving the ice and the landing), it is clearly short of 1/4 turn.

The pictures you're looking at are a launch point and landing. You can't tell if the landing is 'q' or not without knowing where the jump left the ice, but that's why I linked it. And as for point of leaving the ice, you also can't tell how pre-rotated it is without knowing where the takeoff started: in this case the skate is pointing at least 1/8 turn past the 180 mark, because the jump started in a direction that's perpendicular to board of the rink seen in the picture (and that board seen in the picture is the shorter "back" board of the rink). Aka, her takeoff started with the skate going backwards towards the side board of the rink. So a 180 takeoff should mean the toepick is facing the side board when it leaves the ice. Look at the skate in that first picture, you can see it is clearly at least 1/8 of a turn past the point of facing the side board, aka 1/8 of a turn past being perpendicular to the back board (which again, is the board that is visible in the captured shot).



Yes of course, but she goes clearly past that point. It's okay if the jump is rotating further around the circle to compensate, but she doesn't on the Toeloop.

Her 4Sal for example has the same 5/8 pre-rotation, but she's landing within 1/8 turn of backwards, aka landing at least 1/4 turn past the point she left the ice, so she's far enough around the circle for that jump to be seen as a more real quad (even though it's still flawed and lacking some rotation).

Man, I watched this clip 20 times, i know where she left the ice and where she landed. And no matter how hard I look I see a close to 180 pre-rotation. Even if it is a bit more then I don't see how it would make her jump "just a triple" or whatever if we are accepting all the pre-rotated Lz's and F's. It just doesn't seem to be a very big deal.

 

[halulupu]

Daria is very overrated in my opinion. Let's stay with the facts. Very good spinner, very good performer in generall very good pcs skater. She has the Eteri genius power + eteris polical power. However she is really lacking in the Tech part: no Ultra C yet- she might get a 3a or a quad, but still long way to put 3x3a in the program; to get program stable with 3x3a and a quad, or two quads plus 3a in the short -olympic skate ready-is quite a bit task for less than a year to achieve. She might also go very well thru puberty next year. She is a natural Flutzess, very similar to Zhenya's flutz, very unrealistic that it will get better, probably worse as she grows It is overlooked in russia, but internationally the ! will come. She doesn't have a loop combo like Anna. She is super stabel with current content, but wasn't last in junior years. Adding tech, plus staying stable is hard. She is not classical princess type, which we all know is still unfairly favored by judges and media. Lets imagine a situation with her and aliona same tech content. Judges and federation will go with aliona, even if one could very well argue they have similar/same pcs and goe value.

Just staying, maybe I am wrong thought

 

[flanker]

Daria is very overrated in my opinion. Let's stay with the facts. Very good spinner, very good performer in generall very good pcs skater. She has the Eteri genius power + eteris polical power. However she is really lacking in the Tech part: no Ultra C yet- she might get a 3a or a quad, but still long way to put 3x3a in the program; to get program stable with 3x3a and a quad, or two quads plus 3a in the short -olympic skate ready-is quite a bit task for less than a year to achieve. She might also go very well thru puberty next year. She is a natural Flutzess, very similar to Zhenya's flutz, very unrealistic that it will get better, probably worse as she grows It is overlooked in russia, but internationally the ! will come. She doesn't have a loop combo like Anna. She is super stabel with current content, but wasn't last in junior years. Adding tech, plus staying stable is hard. She is not classical princess type, which we all know is still unfairly favored by judges and media. Lets imagine a situation with her and aliona same tech content. Judges and federation will go with aliona, even if one could very well argue they have similar/same pcs and goe value.

Just staying, maybe I am wrong thought

As for the princess type, if Daria is not one then I wonder who even is

Daria gained stability during her junior season, gained some respect by taking silver at junior worlds, defeating Alysa Liu and the korean girls who usually finished over her during the previous season. Actually her Lutz wasn't called at junior worlds as well, her Flip was.

There is always uncertainty about how fresh seniors will be accepted at senior competitions, but if she keeps her stability, I think that even if she won't gain 3A/quad, she can be at least among the skaters respected for their performance abilities, like Satoko for instance. And she seems to deal well with the pressure, which she has shown numerous times already (like skating clean after skaters like Anna, Sasha etc. in Russia or Alysa internationally).

 

[starlight97]

Daria is very overrated in my opinion.

I disagree, I actually think she has been underrated up until very recently when people finally started to notice her. But that's your valid opinion.

Let's stay with the facts. Very good spinner, very good performer in generall very good pcs skater. She has the Eteri genius power + eteris polical power. However she is really lacking in the Tech part: no Ultra C yet- she might get a 3a or a quad, but still long way to put 3x3a in the program; to get program stable with 3x3a and a quad, or two quads plus 3a in the short -olympic skate ready-is quite a bit task for less than a year to achieve.

Of course it's a big task to introduce an Ultra-C, but Alena is the prime example of someone doing that in one season hugely successfully.

She might also go very well thru puberty next year.

Completely disagree, instead she has the perfect age to peak as an Eteri girl.
The ones I'd worry about are Anna and Alena. But who knows. Alina and Yulia were already struggling at 16 while for Evgenia it took until 18 to to downhill.

She is a natural Flutzess, very similar to Zhenya's flutz, very unrealistic that it will get better, probably worse as she grows It is overlooked in russia, but internationally the ! will come.

Yes. But so the ! should come for 50% of the Russian girls if judging was fair.

She is super stabel with current content, but wasn't last in junior years.

None of this matters, the only season that will count is the coming one. Here, prime example being Alina in the Olympic season.

She is not classical princess type, which we all know is still unfairly favored by judges and media.

This is a very weird subjective statement. To me the same old same old princess types are skaters like Gracie Gold and Bradie Tennel(?). And we see how Alena's sassy Twilight got rewarded vs Bradie's boring princess stuff.

Lets imagine a situation with her and aliona same tech content. Judges and federation will go with aliona, even if one could very well argue they have similar/same pcs and goe value.

I'm not convinced at all that they would go with Alena or that they want her on the team so badly/more than Darya. They will just go with the girl who has been scoring higher through the season and who is consistent and healthy in January.

Just staying, maybe I am wrong thought

I'm also just saying and maybe I'm wrong too.