Janet Lynn: A Measured Fall from Freedom

[macy]

Wasn't Gracie more of a 'jumping bean' herself? Pretty sure it was her jumping abilities that put her on the map, I don't think she was known for her skating skills or noteworthy performance skills (from what I can tell she had good packaging and "the right look", but that's not the same as actual charisma and prowess as a performer).

as a junior and in her first year as a senior that is true. i remember people being awestruck by her speed and huge jumps when she was first coming onto the scene. when she switched to Frank before the Olympics her skating took on a refined sophistication.

 

[moonvine]

"Objective measurement is causing figure skating to fall from popular grace." In the USA? What about Russia and Japan with the meteoric rise of figure skating popularity. May be it's about the lack of stars in the USA rather than about meauserement?

Ans so on and so forth...Sorry for interrupting - it won't happen again in this thread.

Well, I disagree that the US lacks stars. We have a multiple time World Champion in Nathan Chen. We have some of the best ice dancers in the world. We have an up and coming women’s star in Alysa Liu (who can do 3A and quads). We even have some pairs who may become stars. Pairs is, from what I can tell, the least popular discipline.

I’ve said this before, and I’ll say it again. I believe the majority of American fans are lazy and aren’t going to pore over a dusty rule book trying to figure out what is going on. They want sports in which the scoring is easy to understand and that *they perceive to be fair.* Examples are basketball and football. When they see a skate in which a skater has one or more falls win over a clean skate that they perceive to be better, they are not going to understand and may very well think “the fix is in.” This isn’t just at International competitions but at US Nationals as well.

There used to be big stars in the US. Tai and Randy, Brian Boitano, Scott Hamilton, Dorothy Hamill, Michelle Kwan, on and on. I believe another part of the problem is that with online streaming people don’t have time to follow as many sports. I sure don’t. There are hundreds and maybe thousands of hours of gymnastics to watch, football, track, basketball and on and on.

Possibly the biggest problem facing figure skating in the US is that there aren’t as many competitions to watch, which isn’t likely to change due to the expense of making ice.

 

[moonvine]

Wasn't Gracie more of a 'jumping bean' herself? Pretty sure it was her jumping abilities that put her on the map, I don't think she was known for her skating skills or noteworthy performance skills (from what I can tell she had good packaging and "the right look", but that's not the same as actual charisma and prowess as a performer).

Possibly in the past. Now I see her feeling the music and telling a story. Her story. I could watch her US Nationals comeback performance over and over. And I do! There was far too much pressure put on her by US Fed and by coaches who berated her about her weight. Now she’s skating for herself and I’m there for it. And she STILL draws people in. I’ve never seen a SRO regionals before hers. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a full standing ovation for a 12th place Nationals finisher before her.

 

[[email protected]]

Well, I disagree that the US lacks stars. We have a multiple time World Champion in Nathan Chen. We have some of the best ice dancers in the world. We have an up and coming women’s star in Alysa Liu (who can do 3A and quads). We even have some pairs who may become stars. Pairs is, from what I can tell, the least popular discipline.

There are several data points to support the statement that women's discipline was and is the driver of figure skating popularity. If the USA had such a dominant lady as Nathan is in men then things would change fast imo. No matter how many people here say that they follow just men, the bulk of the audience don't. Yes, there is one exception and we know who he is and we also know that he might retire after the next Olympics.

 

[el henry]

I don't doubt that she enjoyed the athletic/competitive aspect, but objective comparison is a necessary component of most widely-recognised sports. I meant it in response to the statement that she didn't like required elements - measures to standardise programmes are double-edged since they reduce opportunities for self-expression, but they're needed in some shape or form to avoid comparing apple to oranges.

PS I don't mean to use the term 'sport' in a positive/negative sense, but rather as a neutral label to indicate the primary function(s) of an activity. I don't consider ballet a sport, for instance, since it exists for artistic expression, but I still enjoy it a lot. I like skating as a sport - spins, steps, jumps and all - so I accept a system that may award technically brilliant but rather boring skaters over my favourite artistic one, even if I'm a bit disappointed on my favourite's behalf.


Tomoki was the winner for me (There goes my objectivity...)

I understand your points. Figure skating has never been solely about “objectively” measured criteria and I will always resist any attempts to put it in that box. That doesn’t make it any more or less of a sport, it makes it figure skating

I am perfectly willing to accept that revolutions in the air are valued and I am not saying that only artistry should be valued. I do say they should all be valued accurately, there should not be a PCS bonus for quadsters, etc. , but I have never contested results based on reality.

And jumping off, not directed at you, the reason we can talk about this for screens is no one knows what “the majority” wants. There is no reliable data. But I truly hope figure skating does not become “skate jumping” under the mistaken impression that this makes it more of a “sport”.

 

[[email protected]]

I understand your points. Figure skating has never been solely about “objectively” measured criteria and I will always resist any attempts to put it in that box. That doesn’t make it any more or less of a sport, it makes it figure skating

I am perfectly willing to accept that revolutions in the air are valued and I am not saying that only artistry should be valued. I do say they should all be valued accurately, there should not be a PCS bonus for quadsters, etc. , but I have never contested results based on reality.

And jumping off, not directed at you, the reason we can talk about this for screens is no one knows what “the majority” wants. There is no reliable data. But I truly hope figure skating does not become “skate jumping” under the mistaken impression that this makes it more of a “sport”.

 

[wakuwaku]

As for PFT, I could have told you who won, who came in second, and who came in third (well, I might have had Tomoki on the podium) in PFT, and I don't drink

Well, of course, experienced fan will know who is gonna win in a discipline such as ice dance or PFT. Skaters with stronger reputation - and they will be put on a podium in exact that order. What they showed on ice won't matter at all. Problem is - is that really interesting to watch? I mean - you already watched their programs many times in a season (for example) - there will be nothing new for you. You already know how this competition is gonna end before it even starts. Why watch it? Yet you claim that you love sport and competition aspect too. It seems to me there is something contradictory, to be honest.

I love competitions. Competitions that include skating skills, edges, spins, performance and artistry, and yes, jumps.

And what annoys me the most is not the difference in opinion, but the assumption that I should watch shows or some other art form. Thanks to all for their concern, but I don't want to watch shows. I want to watch all the exciting athletic elements of figure skating that aren't confined to revolutions in the air. And that do constitute sport.

And that's where I can't see sincerity in your words. Because competition is implying fair and clear rules, eaily measurable elements, and yes - for that to work - programs should be somewhat similar to each other. Only with this conditions sport competition could work. And that directly contradicts with so called freedom which you were so praising.
To make an example - what people usually love in a sport competition? Uncertainty of results, battles of nerves - when stakes are very high and every mistake matter. That's adrenaline viewers are going for - else there is no need to watch competitions instead of recorded performances. Right? However, what adrenaline or mistakes you can talk about with only double jumps or without jumps (I still don't get why PFT top participants jumped some triple jumps, tbh - it wasn't required and they could get the same points with double jumps.. anyway, jumps were few and easy enough to not consider them a factor - and anyone can bet that with serious competition participants will be going with single jumps at all - everything to minimize any risk and maximizing chances to win)? Basically you can bet that everybody is going to make their routines without mistakes at all - and therefore, all will be dependant on judges decision which routine they will subjectively like more (or which skater will have maximum reputation at the time). What is competitive or sporting about this? Nothing. You can as well go to a show (suggestion you didn't like so much) with the same result.

I, too, love ballet and watch it for artistic pleasure, but this pleasure is never complete if the technique of the dancer is mediocre. I do enjoy exact movements, flying jumps, speed and amplitude. Going together with the interpretation, music and scenery, of course. Then it is real classic ballet for me. I'm not a fan of modern ballet, although it can be full of artistic passion, just because I prefer classic movements. However, if such a thing as a competition between a classic and a modern dancer ever took place, I would think a fair ground for such a competition the quality of movements, two dancers performing both types of dance and not just one.

Now I see her feeling the music and telling a story. Her story. I could watch her US Nationals comeback performance over and over. And I do! There was far too much pressure put on her by US Fed and by coaches who berated her about her weight. Now she’s skating for herself and I’m there for it. And she STILL draws people in. I’ve never seen a SRO regionals before hers. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a full standing ovation for a 12th place Nationals finisher before her.

And there is another, more subtle nuance in perceiving artistry I wanted to talk about. Some people (myself included - I am not jumps only fan as I maybe gave that impression about) values artistry as a quality of performer's moves. They don't care about program's theme or what choreographer or musician wanted to say with it. They care about how masterfully it was performed. For them the most highly-rated PCS skater is the skater with best SS, spins, steps etc.
Other people values artistry as a skater's person, its history, its appearance, character and charisma. It doesn't matter for them how bad the skater performed. For them the most highly-rated PCS skater is the skater with reputation and fans love.
And other people values artistry as a program and music first. Person of a performer or quality of moves is not that important for them. What matters is their own emotion after performance. For them the most highly-rated PCS skater is the skater who could touch them emotionally with their program.
All three types are quite different - and that probably is one of sources of constant disputes as well. To illustrate I would want to show this comparison video between Kamila's and Kostner's Bolero:

My first impression was that Kostner was very slow and labored compared to Kamila. Kamila's moves were much more powerful, crisp, energy-consuming, with more arms/legs/body moves per second. Her skating was more easy-looking, transition-filled, with bigger ice-coverage due to more speed. And given that difference - I just can't perceive Kostner's artistry at all. But I believe people from second or third category above will praise Kostner much more while disparaging Valieva's routine. That's source of conflict I don't know how to deal with. Question is - what category is more related to PCS, per book rules?

I’ve said this before, and I’ll say it again. I believe the majority of American fans are lazy and aren’t going to pore over a dusty rule book trying to figure out what is going on.

Somehow I doubt that there are so many Russian fans (where figure skating is very popular) who know rules even somewhat decently. I believe there is another reason for difference in popularity - and it's definitely not IJS or rulebook.

 

[el henry]

Well, of course, experienced fan will know who is gonna win in a discipline such as ice dance or PFT. Skaters with stronger reputation - and they will be put on a podium in exact that order. What they showed on ice won't matter at all. Problem is - is that really interesting to watch? I mean - you already watched their programs many times in a season (for example) - there will be nothing new for you. You already know how this competition is gonna end before it even starts. Why watch it? Yet you claim that you love sport and competition aspect too. It seems to me there is something contradictory, to be honest.


.....
My first impression was that Kostner was very slow and labored compared to Kamila. Kamila's moves were much more powerful, crisp, energy-consuming, with more arms/legs/body moves per second. Her skating was more easy-looking, transition-filled, with bigger ice-coverage due to more speed. And given that difference - I just can't perceive Kostner's artistry at all. But I believe people from second or third category above will praise Kostner much more while disparaging Valieva's routine. That's source of conflict I don't know how to deal with. Question is - what category is more related to PCS, per book rules?

Somehow I doubt that there are so many Russian fans (where figure skating is very popular) who know rules even somewhat decently. I believe there is another reason for difference in popularity - and it's definitely not IJS or rulebook.

I had only seen Carolina's Bolero once and I had never seen Kamila's Bolero. So I think I am a good test subject.

I need to say I was somewhat bored by Kamila. All that racing around the ice, lifting this limb, jutting another one out, and to what purpose? What was the point? Movement for movement's sake doesn't interest me. Very tight and airy jumps however.

ETA: which is not to say that someone else might find either of those skates interesting or intriguing. "Boring" is a subjective term, and what bores me, might not bore someone else

Not that I was all that entranced by Carolina either, although it was more interesting because the movements seemed to have a purpose, the skate did seem "studied". I'm not a fan of "studied" either.

I won't watch either of those Boleros again, probably. I will continue to watch the most famous skating Bolero of all time over and over again.

 

[moonvine]

I had only seen Carolina's Bolero once and I had never seen Kamila's Bolero. So I think I am a good test subject.

I need to say I was somewhat bored by Kamila. All that racing around the ice, lifting this limb, jutting another one out, and to what purpose? What was the point? Movement for movement's sake doesn't interest me. Very tight and airy jumps however.

ETA: which is not to say that someone else might find either of those skates interesting or intriguing. "Boring" is a subjective term, and what bores me, might not bore someone else

Not that I was all that entranced by Carolina either, although it was more interesting because the movements seemed to have a purpose, the skate did seem "studied". I'm not a fan of "studied" either.

I won't watch either of those Boleros again, probably. I will continue to watch the most famous skating Bolero of all time over and over again.

I don’t know why anyone else bothers to skate to Bolero.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

And there is another, more subtle nuance in perceiving artistry I wanted to talk about. Some people (myself included - I am not jumps only fan as I maybe gave that impression about) values artistry as a quality of performer's moves. They don't care about program's theme or what choreographer or musician wanted to say with it. They care about how masterfully it was performed. For them the most highly-rated PCS skater is the skater with best SS, spins, steps etc.
Other people values artistry as a skater's person, its history, its appearance, character and charisma. It doesn't matter for them how bad the skater performed. For them the most highly-rated PCS skater is the skater with reputation and fans love.
And other people values artistry as a program and music first. Person of a performer or quality of moves is not that important for them. What matters is their own emotion after performance. For them the most highly-rated PCS skater is the skater who could touch them emotionally with their program.

Good point.
Personally, I would rank a skater who exhibits both 1. (quality of moves) and 3. (musical interpretation/choreographic intent) as higher than a skater who only does one of each.
I don't care so much about 2. because I think skaters should really be assessed anew at each performance based on what they put out on the ice, not their past achievements or reputation.

 

[AxelLover]

And there is another, more subtle nuance in perceiving artistry I wanted to talk about. Some people (myself included - I am not jumps only fan as I maybe gave that impression about) values artistry as a quality of performer's moves. They don't care about program's theme or what choreographer or musician wanted to say with it. They care about how masterfully it was performed. For them the most highly-rated PCS skater is the skater with best SS, spins, steps etc.
Other people values artistry as a skater's person, its history, its appearance, character and charisma. It doesn't matter for them how bad the skater performed. For them the most highly-rated PCS skater is the skater with reputation and fans love.
And other people values artistry as a program and music first. Person of a performer or quality of moves is not that important for them. What matters is their own emotion after performance. For them the most highly-rated PCS skater is the skater who could touch them emotionally with their program.

Well said.

I assume we can all agree that judging PCS by skater's popularity and reputation is not "fair". However, in reality I don't believe there exists a person who is able to completely ignore skater's name and history when judging PCS. This is a matter of human psychology.

A little bit off-topic: It would be interesting to know how much of an impact does a skater's physical appearance have on PCS.

 

[eppen]

y first impression was that Kostner was very slow and labored compared to Kamila. Kamila's moves were much more powerful, crisp, energy-consuming, with more arms/legs/body moves per second. Her skating was more easy-looking, transition-filled, with bigger ice-coverage due to more speed. And given that difference - I just can't perceive Kostner's artistry at all. But I believe people from second or third category above will praise Kostner much more while disparaging Valieva's routine. That's source of conflict I don't know how to deal with. Question is - what category is more related to PCS, per book rules?

This was an interesting comparison, but not really a true one because you cannot hear the music. I recommend watching both with the original music. Bolero is a tough piece to choreograph because it is an endless repetition until the final part. There are few highlights to choreograph moves to match etc. Valieva's version of Bolero emphazises the rhythm and is maybe a tad faster than what Kostner's version is. Kostner's music has a more languid quality to it because of the woodwinds playing the theme are on top.

Valieva certainly has the quantity and to a certain extent quality - she finishes movement ok, has a bit of extensions and so on. But she basically skates through the music, the movement does not reflect what happens in the music at all. She is not even skating to the rhythm except maybe by coincidence (at the beginning of the steps). She could almost skate to any piece of music. The first minute with the quads is also non-interpretation of the music. I have thought that Carolina's Bolero was an inspiration to this in some parts, but that the comparison does Valieva no favors. She is still very young and mostly executes, we'll have to wait and see whether she learns to hear and skate to the music, too.

Carolina's every move is to the music. She picks up nuances from the rhythm to the melody line with ease. She also creates a defiant and even sexy (not very Carolina...) mood which carries from the starting pose to the last second - the main idea of the choreography IMO. She has the quality for every move and very often doing less is so much more. The artistry is also judged by the intention of the movement and understanding of the music and the movement, and Carolina most definitely has those in her corner. These are also in the rulebook IIRC.

Valieva probably should get higher PCS for skating skills and transitions, but the remaining three categories should go in favour of Kostner, especially choreography and interpretation.

Figure skating is movement to music and as such it is hard to see how its artistry could be seen separate from the music and/or theme. Comparison to gymnastics is often offered, but there the big tricks are separated from the rest, the choreographic bits are secondary to it. One of things that appeals to me in figure skating is the way you are supposed make it look easy and effortless, to hide the difficulty of the big tricks to the whole of the choreography. Technical difficulty and good quality execution are certainly things to strive for, but the real magic comes from when all the jumps and the spins and the steps and the transitions and whatnots work perfectly together with the music.

E

 

[moonvine]

Somehow I doubt that there are so many Russian fans (where figure skating is very popular) who know rules even somewhat decently. I believe there is another reason for difference in popularity - and it's definitely not IJS or rulebook.

I have no idea what Russian fans know or don’t know. I have not talked to any because we don’t really go to the same comps. But I have talked to many casual American fans and they want a scoring system that is understandable to them and that they perceive to be fair. If I go to US Nationals, avid fans are going to of course try to figure out which if any of the women might be competitive on the World scene, but your average watcher is more interested in what happened that day. We’ve also had World and Olympic medalists and even champions who didn’t become stars. Of course this is all anecdotal and we’d really need a scientific study to determine the actual reason.

 

[wakuwaku]

One of things that appeals to me in figure skating is the way you are supposed make it look easy and effortless, to hide the difficulty of the big tricks to the whole of the choreography.

Then you should praise Valieva for it - not Kostner. One of key differences between these two performances are lightness/effortlessness of Valieva's moves (especially impressive considering insane difficulty of her routine) compared to heaviness/tiredness of Kostner moves. Maybe if we look at each performance independently or if we compare them to skaters of the same era and age - we wouldn't get that impression. But if we compare them directly - it's what required very hard and deliberate efforts from watcher's side - to not notice.

It would be interesting to know how much of an impact does a skater's physical appearance have on PCS.

Having appearance of experienced adult women will definitely bring you quite a few free PCS points - even if you didn't show anything on ice. I've seen that times and again. The most disgusting examples would be 75PCS for Kostner's meltdown at 2018 Euro or second best PCS in the whole competition at WC2021 for Tuktamysheva - slow skater with bad spins, horrible stepsequence, weak transitions, rigid body and cheesy choreo. The same can be noticed about nontop skaters as well - Shott, Daleman, Gold and many others - who were getting much more PCS points in relation to disaster they showed on ice. It is especially unfair looking in comparison to low PCS which much more solid young Korean and Chinese girls usually are getting, for example.

 

[eppen]

Then you should praise Valieva for it - not Kostner. One of key differences between these two performances are lightness/effortlessness of Valieva's moves (especially impressive considering insane difficulty of her routine) compared to heaviness/tiredness of Kostner moves. Maybe if we look at each performance independently or if we compare them to skaters of the same era and age - we wouldn't get that impression. But if we compare them directly - it's what required very hard and deliberate efforts from watcher's side - to not notice.

Kostner is slower and more languid because her music and style chosen for the choreography dictate that. I cannot see labored movement - Kostner has no problems in executing the movement she does. Valieva is fast, but much faster than her music. She also has to do things quickly because she has a lot to do. She has no problem doing it all in that speed, that is true, but her physical effortlessness is perhaps not all you need to consider. When I watch Valieva, I can see how hard she works in executing each movement, how every section of each movement is almost separate from each other and that feels labored to me.

Effortlessness is also the way the movement seems to come naturally from the music, flow easily from one part to another, and that Kostner does to almost perfection. That is also difficult to quantify - you can quantify speed and number of moves, how difficult they are, but the qualitative side is equally important. It is equally difficult to get that kind of naturalness going. There are very few women who can do what Valieva does particularly with jumps, but the same applies to Kostner and her embodying the music.

And as I said a direct comparison like that is not really worthwhile because you cannot separate the movement from the music. I suspect that we will never agree on this

E

 

[flanker]

If I can use a comparison, lifting 10 kg is effortless for most of the humans. Lifting 100 kg is effortless to only a few and many can't do that at all. The difficulty of programs of skaters who are supposed to be effortless is usually on a completely different level than the difficulty of the program Kamila and her teammates do.

 

[AxelLover]

I consider Carolina to be one of the best artists on ice ever, but for some reason I never really liked her Bolero. I prefer Kamila's version (and I'm not taking into account Kamila's beauiful 4Ts here).

 

[jenaj]

I think Carolina's Bolero is the best of the singles skaters (Torvill and Dean always being the best overall). It is derived from the ballet by Bejart. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsSALaDJuN4 I think Lori Nichol really captured the essence of the music, which is kind of mathematical (not sure if that's the word but it seems right), in its repetitions and precision. The angular movements are straight out of the Bejart ballet. And footwork section (as performed by Carolina) is the best. I actually never liked Carolina until I saw her Bolero. Now I am better able to appreciate her superior technique and artistry.

 

[anonymoose_au]

If I can use a comparison, lifting 10 kg is effortless for most of the humans. Lifting 100 kg is effortless to only a few and many cen't do that at all. The difficulty of programs of skaters who are supposed to be effortless is usually on a completely different level than the difficulty of the program Kamila and her teammates do.

But in that case they shouldn't use music that doesn't reflect that. Bolero music is slow, what's the point of choosing it if you're going to do a something frenetic? It doesn't make sense and should be reflected in the interpretation mark.

It's not like there's not that kind of music out there.

 

[wakuwaku]

Bolero music is slow

Depends on what instruments you are focusing. Drums are pretty fast there.