Did Cohen Have the Desire to Win?

[slutskayafan21]

For example, I am sure that Kat Witt wanted to win gold when she returned to competition in '94, but winning wasn't the prime reason for her return -- and she apparently felt "satisfied" with her performance, even without winning.

I get what you are saying, but just for the record do you think Witt was actually delusional enough to think she was a real contender at all in her return? I know you are saying that a medal wasnt the main point in her return, and I agree, but on a side note if she was able to convine herself somehow she really had any chance she really is the master of positive thinking.

Skating technically had obviously moved on from the triple toe- triple salchow era.

 

[JPierce]

I think the truth of the matter is that most fans would have a hard time handling Sasha's return to the fold. Yes, people love her skating, but they'd find it painful to see her coming in 3rd or lower at many competitions. I think she would be out of the spotlight if that happened to her. With that risk in (mind), how many fans really want Sasha to return to amateur skating?

What I don't understand is why you think she would be 3rd or lower. Internationally? Yes... definitely possible considering the asians, or even very likely at first. Nationally? Pfft. She has 5 significant US competitors but none of them are on her level, which is to say that none of them are currently on the level that she maintained pretty well throughout her career. Of course the future is always uncertain and we don't yet know the Sasha we will be inheriting. But you're either assuming that the newcomers are all going to rise to the stratosphere, or that Sasha will have constant meltdowns due to lack of preparation. I don't see either as likely. She will at least be "Silver Sasha" again, nationally, perhaps better. Internationally, she will be a significant medal contender, perhaps better. It will depend on the roster, just like it always has. Personally, seeing a Sasha that is competitive and skating beautiful programs is all I care about. Give me Sasha's 2-fall R&J program over Shizuka's snoozefest OGM-winner any freaking day. If Sasha can get World or Olympic gold I would be surprised or astonished (respectively). Likewise I'd be surprised if she didn't consistently medal. She'll be up there. Mao is far from invincible, as her little crying spell demonstrated. She just seems invincible to us since Sasha left cause we haven't had anyone on her level...

As much as any fan doesn't want to see her embarrass herself, she will feel twice that toward herself. If she starts really training this summer and decides she can't compete at a level she is happy with, she might just quit. But again, I just do not see that happening. It's more likely she'd ramp up training and then possibly get injured. But aside from injuries, her consistency problems were not based in lack of training, they were primarily (though not entirely) psychological. That's my opinion, but it's based on careful observation of the body of evidence.

"No one would blame her for changing her mind." "oh but they will..."

Yes, "they" will and they should. Not only because she would have eaten so many of her words, but robbed the skating world of so much. Nah. It's not happening. Just remember this for next year, and get ready for the "I told you so's" because they will be frequent and probably not very merciful. (After how many times I've had to defend Sasha, I'll deserve my day in the sun...)

 

[slutskayafan21]

Stick a fork in her, she is done. If she does by some miracle return she will be lucky to even make the team let alone medal at worlds.

 

[R.D.]

What I don't understand is why you think she would be 3rd or lower. Internationally? Yes... definitely possible considering the asians, or even very likely at first. Nationally? Pfft.

And that's exactly the point. To return and not even be in contention might bother some folks. But more importantly, it would possibly rob one of the up-and-comers of a spot if she gets held up at the national meet after a crappy performance.

After how many times I've had to defend Sasha, I'll deserve my day in the sun...

HAD to?? The only skater IMHO that needed defending back in the day was Sarah Hughes who basically was slaughtered by online fans, especially during the SOI tour. Maybe Tara as well. Bashing of those two was commonplace and left unchecked.

But for most other skaters, there are always the fans to balance the naysayers, and skeptics to balance out the cheerleaders.

ETA:

Stick a fork in her, she is done. If she does by some miracle return she will be lucky to even make the team let alone medal at worlds.

well said. If she was properly prepared she would have no issue making it onto the '08 team, I would imagine, but next year? You're definitely right.

 

[JPierce]

Stick a fork in her, she is done. If she does by some miracle return she will be lucky to even make the team let alone medal at worlds.

well said.

So, you derive pleasure from someone saying "stick a fork in Sasha she's DONE." What would you call that, Mr. Red Dog, if not bashing? Then what?

I'm done with you. You revealed your true feelings about Sasha right there.

 

[JPierce]

Back on subject....Cohen had a desire to win but just didn't have her competitive nerves under control. She was, and is, in my opinion a beautiful skater whose skating and career should not be demeaned.

Oh but Dizzy, some people just live to come on these forums and demean skaters.

 

[R.D.]

So, you derive pleasure from someone saying "stick a fork in Sasha she's DONE." What would you call that, Mr. Red Dog, if not bashing? Then what?

Cohen was not called any demeaning names in that comment (which is what I would call bashing). It was just a rather blunt way of saying her best days are behind her, and I happen to agree. Goodness, some posters need to get a thick skin! Welcome to the online skating world...

 

[slutskayafan21]

I am not dissing Sasha by suggesting any comeback ideas are both far fetched and futile. That is how I feel about all the old gaurd. As you can tell by my username my favorite girl is Irina, but I would say the same about her, also about Kwan, Arakawa, and also Cohen. Slutskaya, Cohen, Kwan, Arakawa, we loved them, they were great, they are the past. Suguri, while less accomplished in most respects then all 4 of those, still was around them and competed closely with all 4 of those ladies for many years, and she is the only one of the old guard to try and hang around and now look where she is. Almost certain to miss her own world team for a 2nd straight year and not good enough to even medal in a GP event, or be in the top 3 after the short program with a clean skate at a GP event. Yeah while Fumie is very good, it is true those other 4 might be "better" then her, but it still is an indication the old gaurd has had their time, they were great, move on people move on.

Irina, Michelle, Sasha, Shizuka, we loved you, nothing lasts forever. The new crop are here, thanks for the memories, back to the present.

 

[attyfan]

I get what you are saying, but just for the record do you think Witt was actually delusional enough to think she was a real contender at all in her return? I know you are saying that a medal wasnt the main point in her return, and I agree, but on a side note if she was able to convine herself somehow she really had any chance she really is the master of positive thinking.

Skating technically had obviously moved on from the triple toe- triple salchow era.

I would be surprised if she did think she was a real contender, but that doesn't mean she didn't do so. After all, she could have convinced herself that she was a real contender because she was the better competitor, even if not the better skater.

My point, though, is that a desire to win is not inconsistent with the idea of competing for some reason unrelated to the gold, whether it be making a political statement (Witt) or personal satisfaction (Zayak at US Nats) or some other.

 

[R.D.]

I am not dissing Sasha by suggesting any comeback ideas are both far fetched and futile. That is how I feel about all the old gaurd.

[snip]

Slutskaya, Cohen, Kwan, Arakawa. . . they were great, they are the past. Suguri, while less accomplished in most respects then all 4 of those, still was around them and competed closely with all 4 of those ladies for many years, and she is the only one of the old guard to try and hang around and now look where she is. Almost certain to miss her own world team for a 2nd straight year and not good enough to even medal in a GP event, or be in the top 3 after the short program with a clean skate at a GP event. Yeah while Fumie is very good, it is true those other 4 might be "better" then her, but it still is an indication the old gaurd has had their time, they were great, move on people move on.

Irina, Michelle, Sasha, Shizuka, we loved you, nothing lasts forever. The new crop are here, thanks for the memories, back to the present.

WORD!!:yes:

Cohen has had her time. Of course, she is free to try to attempt a come-back, and if lightning strikes my house and she manages to hold her own with the likes of Kim and Asada, good for her. That would definitely put her up there with the elite if she pulled that feat off.

But that's a BIG if. Let's be real now. That's just not happening. The current generation is here. She is of the past generation. I think she will quickly realize that she will be the Fumie Suguri of the U.S. if she does try to come back. (no offense to Fumie, it's just an example.)

 

[attyfan]

...
As for spots for Worlds / Olympics, can anyone give a complete explanation of how and when each of those are earned? IIRC Olympic berths are earned at the previous year's Worlds, but I don't understand how precisely the points for that setup work, and I've yet to see a formula for it. I tried analyzing Worlds 05 results / Torino 06 entries, but it didn't look like an exact correlation.

You are right that Oly berths are earned at the previous year's Worlds, and the number of berths depends on both the size of the group that gets sent to Worlds and their placements. To find the formula, go to the ISU website; click on the rules; it is rule 350 (I think that's the number -- it is definitely at pages 30 and 31). Since the rules are pdf, I couldn't cut and paste them here.

With a three-lady team (such as the US sent to Moscow in '05), the placements of the top two must add up to 13 or less to get 3 berths for the Olys; Sasha's second place plus Michelle's fourth place added up to six -- giving the US three places in Torino. If (for example) Michelle had not gone to Moscow, and the only two skaters were Sasha and Jenny (who came in something like 15th), the US would only have been allowed to send two ladies to Torino.

 

[Kwanford Wife]

Give me Sasha's 2-fall R&J program over Shizuka's snoozefest OGM-winner any freaking day. If Sasha can get World or Olympic gold I would be surprised or astonished (respectively). Likewise I'd be surprised if she didn't consistently medal. She'll be up there. Mao is far from invincible, as her little crying spell demonstrated. She just seems invincible to us since Sasha left cause we haven't had anyone on her level...

As much as any fan doesn't want to see her embarrass herself, she will feel twice that toward herself. If she starts really training this summer and decides she can't compete at a level she is happy with, she might just quit. But again, I just do not see that happening. It's more likely she'd ramp up training and then possibly get injured. But aside from injuries, her consistency problems were not based in lack of training, they were primarily (though not entirely) psychological. That's my opinion, but it's based on careful observation of the body of evidence.

"No one would blame her for changing her mind." "oh but they will..."

Yes, "they" will and they should. Not only because she would have eaten so many of her words, but robbed the skating world of so much. Nah. It's not happening. Just remember this for next year, and get ready for the "I told you so's" because they will be frequent and probably not very merciful. (After how many times I've had to defend Sasha, I'll deserve my day in the sun...)

No disrespect but this post is so strange... why all the angst about Sasha returning to competitve skating? If you personally enjoyed her olympic performance vs. Diva's competitive program then I would assume that you'd be happy that she'd joined the SOI roster... what's the point of being a fan of an athlete if you DON"T want to see them win? If ya can't compete or don't wan't to compete - then do something else... Go increase your fame and fortune as a grown up and leave the body busting the young whipper snappers who aren't living on Celebrex just yet...

Now, I do understand a fan's desire to see their favorite perform, but as an uber Kwan fan - I simply don't want to see her on the ice if she's not kicking butt and taking names... Because she's an athlete who loves to compete and win and this is a sport. Not performance art.

Skaters seem to grasp this concept - why so hard for their fans?

 

[blue dog]

The Kimmie thread is getting way off topic so I thought I'd create a side thread for all the Cohen talk.

On that topic, I personally think she wanted to win, but she just did not have the competitor's mindset. That prevented her from really buckling down for four minutes and getting it down. But such a skater is not all that easy to find or manufacture.

JMHO

It's not, to me, that she didn't want to win, it's that I don't even think she loved skating. I think Sasha likes being the center of attention (not in a negative way; she is a performer), and skating provided a wonderful outlet for that. When she began to be recognised for her talents, it was the perfect scenario for her.

 

[R.D.]

I think Sasha likes being the center of attention

Right on. She has said this herself, many times but in different words (i.e. "I enjoy the attention", etc.)

SOI is perfect for something like that. In show skating, it's just you and the audience. Your GOAL is to get their attention.

Not sure how acting would give her that same need for attention, unless she went Broadway or something. I say she's doing the right thing right now- show skating, headlining a show as prestigious as SOI, showcasing what you're actually good at- what better way to get attention than that?

 

[JPierce]

It was just a rather blunt way of saying her best days are behind her, and I happen to agree.

Actually it was outright mockery of Sasha, tag team no less. I'm not saying it's "bashing" in the sense of getting you in trouble, just that it is very telling if someone LAUGHS about some skater being "washed up", especially one like Sasha. And who are YOU to say whether Sasha or anyone else has a RIGHT to come back and compete? "Taking chances away from other girls" -- so by that same logic, Michelle Kwan "took all those girls chances away", including Sasha's, every time she kept winning and winning? Ludicrous! "How DARE Michelle be so talented that she hogs all the medals!" No, actually, Michelle had the right to skate as long as she wanted, and win anything she could win, she is a legend and did great things for the sport for many reasons, including her amazingly long time in the sun. Likewise, Sasha has every right to come back and try to win, and by the way, it's people like Sasha and Michelle that fill the seats. Regardless, every person on that ice has every right to do their best, has every right to be there and achieve whatever they can. This is a SPORT.

When I went back and checked the threads, it's basically 3 people doing most of the Sasha hating, so that makes me feel better. It's probably usually that way, but I am too lazy to learn names and take notes, so it feels like a lot more than it really is.

 

[R.D.]

??? No one's hating on her at all! Just expressing skepticism for her possible come back!! OMG...if you think this is bad, you should have been here 3 years ago. The poster whose name I will not mention...

I said MYSELF that she is welcome to attempt a come-back. If she is successful, fine. (and even that is subjective depending on her motivation)...I personally don't think that she will be competitive with the top crop of current competing skaters, but heck, I won't stop her if she's serious about coming back.

 

[JPierce]

OMG...if you think this is bad, you should have been here 3 years ago. The poster whose name I will not mention...

I bet I could guess the name if I wanted to.

 

[R.D.]

I bet I could guess the name if I wanted to.

one thing: the poster is long gone from the board.

 

[kandidy]

I am a really big sasha's fan. As much as I want to see her compete again, I won' blame her for not coming back.
I have read so many thread in other forums discussing about the possibility of her coming back. Until this point, let's say that time will tells. We will soon know she will come back or not.
Let's think positive, if she comes back, good for her, and good for US ISU,too. More tickets will be sold in US, I am sure.( look at those empty seats in Skate america this year).
Let's hope tha this year, US can secure three spots to the 2009 worlds. (I am putting lots of hopes on Ashley rather than Alissa.

 

[JPierce]

OMG...if you think this is bad, you should have been here 3 years ago. The poster whose name I will not mention...

I bet I could guess the name if I wanted to.

you've never said whether or not you were a big fan of hers or not, but it seems you have at least SOME vested interest in her. Why not rejoice at the fact that she is doing the SOI tour? Or do you only want to see her on competition ice?

I am a fan - why would I go to such lengths to defend her if I wasn't? However, I am also an intensely critical thinker and I approach things accordingly. For instance, I am a fan of Emily Hughes more than I was of anyone else that attended Skate America, but I predicted her in 4th, and she ended in 4th just as I said. I didn't have some kind of wild ridiculous notion that she was capable of things she is not. That doesn't mean I don't adore watching her skate.

Likewise with Sasha, I've dealt with people saying "OMG she isn't coming back!" for almost a year now on various forums. Of course I am a fan and would LOVE to see her come back, but that is not the issue. For a year all we had was the single statement on her website saying she will be back (which, by the way, doesn't even appear to be linked on the main site anymore, which might scare some people - if it is still linked I simply cannot find the link.) Some people refused to believe her statement. I analyzed that statement, decided if it was just some public relations BS, or if it made logical sense. I analyzed her probable motivations, her stupid acting stint, and everything else. And I decided that it does make logical sense, that she does have absolute intentions on returning. Lo and behold, now recently we get an interview with Sasha and she is still maintaining it very clearly. It's almost a year later, it could be easy to believe that by now she would have backed down, backed out, would try to weasel out of it etc. She hasn't. I was vindicated once again.

As far as competition - yes, I mainly want to see the competitions. That's where the excitement is. There are a few skaters that draw me into enjoying their exhibitions, but it's not quite the same for me. In fact, SOI is coming here, and I don't plan to attend. Of course I'm BROKE, but still. (An aside - both of the first skating events I attended here were supposed to have either Michelle or Sasha, and neither of them showed up either time. I think that fact has really burned me on shelling out money for shows...)

...On second thought, I see that I can get reasonable seats for $25-$32 depending on ticketmaster charges. I thought that price would be like the nosebleed section. Maybe I could take my mom along and make her ticket a birthday present.