2021-22 Russian Women's Figure Skating | Page 277 | Golden Skate

2021-22 Russian Women's Figure Skating

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To be clear— I said almost exactly what you did.

That both are overscored, especially in PCS. I literally just said “LMAO” here when I saw the results for Skate Canada.

That Kamila has better SS and Transitions.

That if Kamila gets a 10 for performance Liza should absolutely because she is much better there than Kamila.

That Liza should get better scores than Kamila for Performance, interpretation, and composition.

And that neither are what I would consider “good” for those three component marks.

Compare even the Master of Margarita program at its worst to either Liza or Kamila’s programs, the crafting of it and Anna’s acting and engagement are far superior.
Well, here‘s the thing - I disagree about Liza getting higher marks in interpretation and composition. Performance, yes, but the other two? How is Liza interpreting the music any more meaningfully than Kamila? How is her program better constructed than Kamila's? I just don‘t see it.

As for Master of Margarita — I don‘t think it‘s a particularly brilliant piece of choreography but Anna is Anna. If you want a lesson on musicality, performance and interpretation, look at her. She has other flaws, though (lacking skating skills, messy spins, dubious jump technique) and I don‘t think she‘s objectively on the same level as Kamila now overall. Obviously, it‘s not like Kamila‘s without flaws herself (though the scoring would certainly make it seem that way….) but I think she is legitimately better (solely technically) than everybody but a hypothetical 5 quads Trusova right now. Since Sasha‘s injured, though, and has never pulled off that layout in international competition before, I doubt we‘re likely to see any kind of showdown unless Kamila makes multiple mistakes.
 
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Just thinking about who, if anyone, is a "lock" for the 3 Russian women's spots:

Kamila is as much a lock as you can have, with her season's best (272.71) and mean (262.34) both significantly higher than the rest of the field (both Russian and non-Russian).

I don't think you can call either Anna or Liza a lock for the next two spots: IMO they're the most likely to take the spots at this point but you *can't* call one a lock and the other not. Anna's season's best is slightly higher than Liza's but Liza's mean is actually slightly higher if you include Budapest Trophy. Granted, Budapest was a low outlier for Anna, but Liza is still right there with her based on GP scores.

AnnaLiza
Budapest Trophy (Senior B): 222.73Finlandia (Challenger): 233.30
GP Italy: 236.78GP Canada: 232.88
GP France: 229.69GP Russia: 229.23
SB: 236.78SB: 232.88
Mean: 229.73Mean: 231.80

What raises Anna's likelihood of solidifying a spot is that her ceiling is still higher whereas Liza has performing consistently towards the top of her abilities. I do expect Anna to try to put it all out there at Nationals. I don't expect what happened with the lutz in France to happen again.

Sasha and Maiia could still claim one of the spots, but Liza has been scoring pretty consistently (see above) while Maiia's been more inconsistent and has a lower SB of 226.35 (GP Italy). Sasha has a higher SB that's right up there with Anna/Liza (232.37) from watered down tech content, but it's unclear what she'll be ready to do at Nationals.

Alena has my heart and she's been improving. Still, I don't know if she could beat who she would need to at Nationals this year.
 
You have KV below 240 points? Dang. You are the only one. Hopefully you're deflating other top ladies scores as well and not just hers because many have had scores puffed-up this season.
He's plannig to put hot water on the ice during bolero. :ROFLMAO:
Seriuosly: she can have a bad day like anyone but SHE can score low.
As of now there is no one that can match her scores so Kami goes and decide if she wins or not.
Potentially only a 5 clean quad Sasha can overscore her TES (never happenend in competition)
Anna can potentially do much better than now, but she needs much better than ever.
Her best international SP+FS amount to 246, add 10 for a good measure and she's still short.
maybe adding a backloaded quad combo the moment she's going to peak (nationals) could put her close enough to scare Kami.

The season is just getting going we have to say who stays healthy and if KV has peaked too soon or not or if she's just getting better because she's certainly a lot better than she was at test skates. Correct?
Kami form management could be a problem.
She will probably need to discharge and reload for the important part of the season.
Kamila is scoring higher on an international board than she was last year with a domestic board.
I think that means she improved since last year.
 
I wonder if the people who wanna put Liza ahead of Kamila in PCS, or even only performance, have ever considered that when you have close to 0 transitions or footwork in your programs, inferior tech and spins and all you have to do choreography wise is make the same Bollywood gestures with your arms over and over again while standing still - it is much easier to "perform". Aka raise your arms and smile to animate the crowd when your music cut literally says "are you readyyy? LET'S GO!"...*insert bass pumping music*...🤦‍♀️
There is nobody screaming "LET'S GO!" in Bolero and much less in a lyrical program like Kamila's SP. A good performance looks very different in those kind of programs.

I applaud Liza's team for this packaging cause it's really the best they could have done for her and the crowd will fall for it/get behind it every time. I also applaud Liza for delivering it to the best of her abilities - but using that as an argument to score her higher than Kamila... well, to each their own and thank god the mayority of judges don't agree.
to be completely honest for me personally when watching the FS, watching Tuk skate right after Mariah Bell and seeing the vast difference in speed, skating skills and extension was pretty astounding and extremely noticeable. it felt like going from one extreme to the other. and Mariah isn't even on the same level as the top Russians.
 
to be completely honest for me personally when watching the FS, watching Tuk skate right after Mariah Bell and seeing the vast difference in speed, skating skills and extension was pretty astounding and extremely noticeable. it felt like going from one extreme to the other. and Mariah isn't even on the same level as the top Russians.
Imho both Mariah and Loena should have scored better PCS than Liza and Maya :popcorn:
 
I‘m personally astounded that Liza‘s sudden meteoric rise in PCS isn't met with the incredulity it, imo, deserves. For me she is and always has been the antithesis of a "PCS skater". I think I‘ve made it clear that I‘m not a fan of Kamila‘s at all and I couldn‘t care less about her programs - but she‘s objectively a much better skater than Liza. Let‘s look at each PCS factor individually alright?

Skating skills: Kamila has much better speed, ice coverage and depth of edges. Like, it‘s not even a competition between them at this point. If I had to give a concrete number, I‘d rate Kamila‘s somewhere around 8.50 - 8.75, while Liza‘s are at least a full point below hers. Liza has laboured crossovers which makes her rather slow. She also doesn‘t have good ice coverage, not a lot of one foot or multidirectional skating and the edges during her step sequence are shallow without a lot of flow. Kamila‘s crossovers aren‘t the best either (which is why I wouldn‘t rate her SS at a 9 personally) but she‘s still miles better at gaining, maintaining and utilizing speed than Liza and has better movement quality and edge control.

Transitions: I mean… do we really have to write a whole essay about this one? The entry into Liza‘s 3A should be enough of a proof - it‘s stalled and cautious and slow and her programs have been historically empty in terms of transitions (a common feature for many Mishin skaters, I must say). She’s improved a bit over the last few years but she’s nowhere even close to most top skaters, let alone those from Eteri’s camp. Kamila, meanwhile, is a traditional Sambo70 skater, with all that entails, including tons of transitions. Now, personally, I do not believe quantity equals quality — Kamila‘s transitions could and should be held longer and accentuated better for maximum effect — but, well, quantity is still better than nothing.

Now, performance, composition and interpretation are all less "technical" and thus much more open to interpretation, so I‘ll lump them together here. I think it‘s fair to say that Liza is a effective performer with a strategically well chosen FS - she gets the crowd to rally behind her. Whether or not that style might appeal to everyone is a personal choice. But she‘s certainly doing well with it. Interpretation, however, is a rather different matter and frankly, I think neither Kamila nor Liza are the cream of the crop there, especially not in the FS. Kamila‘s executing the choreo she‘s been given but I don‘t feel like she fully commands Bolero yet (granted, it‘s a very difficult piece and the choreo doesn‘t help). She certainly commands the technical elements but beyond that… not so much. As for Liza… I personally don‘t see her interpreting the music with her body in any way, beyond a dozen vague hand gestures/movements. But that‘s surface level, "performance" if you will, not interpretation. And while Bolero certainly isn‘t a choreographic masterpiece, I don‘t think anyone can tell me with a straight face that Liza‘s FS of all programs, is.

So yeah. I think it’s ridiculous to claim that Liza is a better PCS skater than Kamila just because… why, exactly? She‘s older? She‘s objectively (and seriously) lagging on the more technical side of PCS and about even (if your’re generous) on the rest.

Frankly speaking, Liza‘s been just as overscored as the rest of them this season. I know she‘s been the underdog for years and the victim of unfair practices within RusFed but this doesn‘t neglect that her position has changed substantially this year. She‘s now a serious candidate for the Russian Olympic team and earning all the bonuses that come along with that.
Agree with all of this. Except, Kamila’s FS doesn’t even have many transitions, since it’s an ultra-C fest.

Anyway, I said a few days ago that I really feel like the judges are gaslighting us with Liza’s scores. It’s completely nonsensical. I’m sure this will be controversial to say, but I personally doubt Liza is going to make the Olympic team, so all of this hype and overscoring is going to end up being meaningless :shrug: If I’m wrong, that’s fine, it’s just a personal gut feeling.
 
Imho both Mariah and Loena should have scored better PCS than Liza and Maya :popcorn:

Here lies the problem with PCS with the exception of transitions, its subjective to the viewer's preference. To use a retired skater for an example (to hopefully avoid fan wars) Julia Lipnitskaia and Schindler's List some people thought she was interpreting/ performing that music with respect to the seriousness of the theme, others thought she wasn't really interpreting and her team chose a piece of music that could carry her.
 
Well, here‘s the thing - I disagree about Liza getting higher marks in interpretation and composition. Performance, yes, but the other two? How is Liza interpreting the music any more meaningfully than Kamila? How is her program better constructed than Kamila's? I just don‘t see it.

As for Master of Margarita — I don‘t think it‘s a particularly brilliant piece of choreography but Anna is Anna. If you want a lesson on musicality, performance and interpretation, look at her. She has other flaws, though (lacking skating skills, messy spins, dubious jump technique) and I don‘t think she‘s objectively on the same level as Kamila now overall. Obviously, it‘s not like Kamila‘s without flaws herself (though the scoring would certainly make it seem that way….) but I think she is legitimately better (solely technically) than everybody but a hypothetical 5 quads Trusova right now. Since Sasha‘s injured, though, and has never pulled off that layout in international competition before, I doubt we‘re likely to see any kind of showdown unless Kamila makes multiple mistakes.
Well for me I think if a program is loose enough that you change it's meaning or your portrayal every performance then it isn't well constructed. And if you're always changing the interpretation, I don't really know how you can score high for interpretation. It becomes very arbitrary. Hence why Liza gets better composition/interpretation scores from me. The pieces are at least dedicated to the image, and the choreography, if not a little cliche, does reflect this, as does how she emotes. Giving Kamila Bolero when she'd never displayed anything remotely abstract except Exogenesis, where she was almost deadpan faced the whole time, was a massive packaging mistake on part of TT. Even Avatar is better for her than the SP because of course there is a known story already. Although I still don't get her face in the exhibition either. It just doesn't match Avatar for me. She looks so aggressive but the whole portrayal of the blue people (don't remember what they're called right now) was very anti-aggression. The only characters portrayed as combative are the humans. But at the very least one could mark it higher for composition. I really like the hair thing, even if it's clunky for her to get off the ground. But it doesn't matter then, because it's not a competitive piece. I just think she really needs to work on how she displays the characters she's skating. On the other hand Liza has been packaged to near the best of her ability this season so it highlights her strengths instead of her weaknesses. Her performances match her personality, as well so it's easier for her to sell them, I think.

I agree choreographically Master of Margarita isn't that exceptional, but the succession of music through the piece was intentional and gives knowledge to the original work, and the change in character from Anna and that she has a very clear image of what she is portraying in her head elevates it. This is what a skater should bring to the table. Her spins aren't bad if you can ignore the foot thing-- I think I would've never noticed if someone hadn't pointed it out. But I am not a dancer so to me it doesn't bother me. I assumed it was just a sort of positional choice no different than how any top skater has their sort of "signature" positions. Anna's camel spin looked to me a variation. It's a little rough this season, sort of slow, but at least improving. I think skating skills are reflective of stamina with her, as is the case with Aliona-- we see very good skills if she is not tired or focused on other things. A clean Anna that's improving throughout the season could be very impactful with her two programs because they are both built with purpose and to be impactful. As for Trusova, she did reach some important milestones this season-- five quads on a performance rink, and skating cleanly on international competition ice. While she hasn't completed her program cleanly competitively before, and she has been injured, I think that her returning to competition with even a good 3 quad arsenal will shake up those who don't have steely nerves.
 
Isn't interpretation about how you can pick out notes in the music and move to them? And on a macro-scale deliver the general theme/feeling of the music? It isn't that deep. It also has never been necessary to "tell a story". Skaters can motivate themselves to interpret the music however they want, doesn't concern me.

To take Kamila, there are very few things she could do during her program to specifically tell me that her grandma died, I highly suggest she does not do any of those things.
 
Sometimes your posts are just so... Weird...
&
Sometimes? I must be improving then. Haha

Don't ever change your enthusiastic and lively style, even if Sometimes you leave me with the impression that you are organizing gambles clandestine fights with bulldogs and children :scratch2:... in the backyards you know


:laugh2::laugh2::laugh2:
 
He's plannig to put hot water on the ice during bolero. :ROFLMAO:
Seriuosly: she can have a bad day like anyone but SHE can score low.
As of now there is no one that can match her scores so Kami goes and decide if she wins or not.
Potentially only a 5 clean quad Sasha can overscore her TES (never happenend in competition)
Anna can potentially do much better than now, but she needs much better than ever.
Her best international SP+FS amount to 246, add 10 for a good measure and she's still short.
maybe adding a backloaded quad combo the moment she's going to peak (nationals) could put her close enough to scare Kami.


Kami form management could be a problem.
She will probably need to discharge and reload for the important part of the season.
Kamila is scoring higher on an international board than she was last year with a domestic board.
I think that means she improved since last year.
We will find out in a few months if kV is peaking too soon. But everything is new to her and she is enjoying getting the big scores and the big applause from the audience.

We don't know how mentally tough she is but we know she can dominate at this point. And yes you are right she is better than last year and she was good really good last year. Skaters will have to go a ways to catch her or she will have to bomb a free skate.
 
Don't ever change your enthusiastic and lively style, even if Sometimes you leave me with the impression that you are organizing gambles clandestine fights with bulldogs and children :scratch2:... in the backyards you know


:laugh2::laugh2::laugh2:
I’m on the floor. LMFAO.

I assure you, I don’t do any of the above. I love kids and animals and wouldn’t hurt them. As hard as it is to believe. Haha
 
Well I would have Liza better than Kamila in those three categories for these programs. If it was girl on ball or exogenesis I would only have Liza better than Kamila for performanc
Not exogenesis, omg. Have you listened to the lyrics? Evgenia using that music made sense, it probably perfectly encapsulates how she was feeling the year between her olympic silver and world bronze. How do you imagine 13 year old Kamila was interpreting that song? She missed her quad on the practice so she hopes she lands the next one? Its like a kid skating to ne me quitte pas, thinking about when their mom dropped them off at the rink that day. Utterly non sensical music choices.
 
Not exogenesis, omg. Have you listened to the lyrics? Evgenia using that music made sense, it probably perfectly encapsulates how she was feeling the year between her olympic silver and world bronze. How do you imagine 13 year old Kamila was interpreting that song? She missed her quad on the practice so she hopes she lands the next one? Its like a kid skating to ne me quitte pas, thinking about when their mom dropped them off at the rink that day. Utterly non sensical music choices.
Ha!

I agree mostly. Though this isn’t really sexually overt, the way some other nonsensical choices are. Maia’s SP doesn’t make sense at all for a 14 year old. I mean she ended up selling it and when she’s on its one of my faves of the last two seasons, so I guess high risk high reward.

Depression and things like that can sort of manifest themself as lifelessness, so I guess it was fine that she looked scared half the time and disengaged the other half. Maybe intentional or not, but it worked better than Bolero, imo. Hence why I don’t really give it high performance marks— she doesn’t do anything to engage with the audience. But at the very least it makes sense.
 
Isn't interpretation about how you can pick out notes in the music and move to them? And on a macro-scale deliver the general theme/feeling of the music? It isn't that deep. It also has never been necessary to "tell a story". Skaters can motivate themselves to interpret the music however they want, doesn't concern me.

To take Kamila, there are very few things she could do during her program to specifically tell me that her grandma died, I highly suggest she does not do any of those things.
I don’t think it’s necessary to tell a store but I do think it makes it more engaging. I think that’s why certain pieces are so popular, because they do in fact tell a story. Swan Lake, Moulin Rouge, Firebird, pieces from popular cinema, etc.

On the other hand, if a skater tells me they are trying to portray something and it doesn’t match the performance I’d say it takes away from interpretation.

If you get tickets to a comedy movie and you leave crying because it was just a horribly sad drama, the quality of the piece may well be A+ good for a horribly sad drama, but the marketers would get an F for ability to describe what you were going to be viewing.
 
I don’t think it’s necessary to tell a store but I do think it makes it more engaging. I think that’s why certain pieces are so popular, because they do in fact tell a story. Swan Lake, Moulin Rouge, Firebird, pieces from popular cinema, etc.

On the other hand, if a skater tells me they are trying to portray something and it doesn’t match the performance I’d say it takes away from interpretation.

If you get tickets to a comedy movie and you leave crying because it was just a horribly sad drama, the quality of the piece may well be A+ good for a horribly sad drama, but the marketers would get an F for ability to describe what you were going to be viewing.
What are you going to see should depend only on a skater, not on the marketers, or the name of a song, or on our predefined opinion how something supposed to be interpreted or not.
 
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What are you going to see should depend only on a skater, not on the marketers, or the name of a song, or on our predefined opinion how something supposed to be interpreted or not.
Kamila here is the marketer— she is telling me for example her short is a program about grief, and I do not see it. I said because of this it was better for me in its earlier performances when it was a simpler image of a girl chasing a butterfly. If a performer cannot match in performance what they are telling me they are performing, then they are not interpreting properly. In this way it’s better for someone to not tell us what they are skating about because then, yes of course it is dependent only on what is shown on ice, not what is said.

Though I disagree about the notion that songs shouldn’t play into the interpretation. I think it’d be rather strange to see someone skate to Schindler’s List, for example, and be cheerful. Or skate to a famous ballet but remove any and all homage to it. Don Quixote and Swan Lake from Alina both referenced the original ballet choreography.

In contemporary or less recognized pieces of theatrical work, or work that is so mainstream it’s used anywhere and everywhere this isn’t really a problem because the audience likely hasn’t heard it or if they have haven’t seen a performance to it, or they have seen so many already it doesn’t matter. Whereas something like a ballet just has different ensemble variations and solo renditions, this music doesn’t have choreography or expressions widely associated with it, so it is much easier to imprint yourself onto the pieces.
 
Kamila's quote after the short: " Richter (the composer) said that this music is to remember the ones who left us. I dedicate this program to my grandmother who passed away in 2019."

nowhere did she say the program is portraying or telling a story of grief, only that she dedicates it to her grandmother.
 
Kamila here is the marketer— she is telling me for example her short is a program about grief, and I do not see it. I said because of this it was better for me in its earlier performances when it was a simpler image of a girl chasing a butterfly. If a performer cannot match in performance what they are telling me they are performing, then they are not interpreting properly. In this way it’s better for someone to not tell us what they are skating about because then, yes of course it is dependent only on what is shown on ice, not what is said.

Though I disagree about the notion that songs shouldn’t play into the interpretation. I think it’d be rather strange to see someone skate to Schindler’s List, for example, and be cheerful. Or skate to a famous ballet but remove any and all homage to it. Don Quixote and Swan Lake from Alina both referenced the original ballet choreography.

In contemporary or less recognized pieces of theatrical work, or work that is so mainstream it’s used anywhere and everywhere this isn’t really a problem because the audience likely hasn’t heard it or if they have haven’t seen a performance to it, or they have seen so many already it doesn’t matter. Whereas something like a ballet just has different ensemble variations and solo renditions, this music doesn’t have choreography or expressions widely associated with it, so it is much easier to imprint yourself onto the pieces.
It is one thing to reference some idea, or create a mood, which Kamila does, and the other thing is to literally translate something on ice, which rarely skaters do and which nobody demands from them anyway... For me personally, it is pretty obvious because she has a butterfly on her costume, that she is trying to remind us that (this) life is short. As it is pretty obvious she is portraying a snake, or meaning of a snake in her free.
 
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Kamila here is the marketer— she is telling me for example her short is a program about grief, and I do not see it. I said because of this it was better for me in its earlier performances when it was a simpler image of a girl chasing a butterfly. If a performer cannot match in performance what they are telling me they are performing, then they are not interpreting properly. In this way it’s better for someone to not tell us what they are skating about because then, yes of course it is dependent only on what is shown on ice, not what is said.

Though I disagree about the notion that songs shouldn’t play into the interpretation. I think it’d be rather strange to see someone skate to Schindler’s List, for example, and be cheerful. Or skate to a famous ballet but remove any and all homage to it. Don Quixote and Swan Lake from Alina both referenced the original ballet choreography.

In contemporary or less recognized pieces of theatrical work, or work that is so mainstream it’s used anywhere and everywhere this isn’t really a problem because the audience likely hasn’t heard it or if they have haven’t seen a performance to it, or they have seen so many already it doesn’t matter. Whereas something like a ballet just has different ensemble variations and solo renditions, this music doesn’t have choreography or expressions widely associated with it, so it is much easier to imprint yourself onto the pieces.
But judging Valieva's interpretation on the ice by something she said in an interview is a standard no other skater is held to, and frankly wrong. I don't think she's skating at all in contrast to the feel of the music so I see no problems. Not to mention it ignores the massive component of interpretation which is moving to the notes of the music. Because of her ballet training and flexibility she has a huge advantage in this.
 
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