2021-22 Russian Women's Figure Skating | Page 279 | Golden Skate

2021-22 Russian Women's Figure Skating

bouncy

☀️
On the Ice
Joined
Oct 4, 2019
I honestly can’t think of anyone who deserved over 80 internationally without a 3A. Zagitova and Shcherbakova are probably the closest with backloaded 3Lz-3Lo but whenever I’ve tried to score their best short programs myself (Zagitova Olympics or GPF 2019, Shcherbakova GPF 2019 or worlds 2011) I have them at 78-79. IMO the only ones who should have ever been above 80 are Kihira, Tuktamysheva, Kostornaia, Valieva, and Higuchi
Hands down!
 

silveruskate

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 20, 2019
I honestly can’t think of anyone who deserved over 80 internationally without a 3A. Zagitova and Shcherbakova are probably the closest with backloaded 3Lz-3Lo but whenever I’ve tried to score their best short programs myself (Zagitova Olympics or GPF 2019, Shcherbakova GPF 2019 or worlds 2011) I have them at 78-79. IMO the only ones who should have ever been above 80 are Kihira, Tuktamysheva, Kostornaia, Valieva, and Higuchi
If we think of Yuna Kim at 78.5, there's the extra sequence but her PCS was 33.8 so we could move the 4 points to that. Everything else balances out. With better GOE spins she would have been 80+. There's a pathway to 80+ without a 3A IMO but you need 42+ TES. I'm assuming 38 is the max PCS we'll likely ever see.

What was the TES you gave when you scored Alina's Olympics SP? And were you giving 1.1x for all the jumps or just the last one?
 

lurkerghost1

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 6, 2021
If we think of Yuna Kim at 78.5, there's the extra sequence but her PCS was 33.8 so we could move the 4 points to that. Everything else balances out. With better GOE spins she would have been 80+. There's a pathway to 80+ without a 3A IMO but you need 42+ TES. I'm assuming 38 is the max PCS we'll likely ever see.

What was the TES you gave when you scored Alina's Olympics SP? And were you giving 1.1x for all the jumps or just the last one?
I have her at 80.67 but only because of backloading all 3. If we only gave the 3Lz-3Lo 1.1x she'd be below. But I guess I forgot about the power of backloading everything...



Then at the GPF I gave her huge PCS but I don't think her 3Lz/3Lo is big enough to get +4/+5 outside of a few specific occasions (for example Japan Open 2019) so she's still on 79. I also gave her benefit of the doubt and didn't mark (!) but it could go that way

 

Imagine

Medalist
Joined
Feb 22, 2014
Well I watched Game of Thrones after 2019 so going back and rewatching those programs now makes them more disappointing because it turns out Daenerys is a very sly and complex character, perhaps something Aliona could pull off…
Hi.
 

silveruskate

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 20, 2019
I have her at 80.67 but only because of backloading all 3. If we only gave the 3Lz-3Lo 1.1x she'd be below. But I guess I forgot about the power of backloading everything...



Then at the GPF I gave her huge PCS but I don't think her 3Lz/3Lo is big enough to get +4/+5 outside of a few specific occasions (for example Japan Open 2019) so she's still on 79. I also gave her benefit of the doubt and didn't mark (!) but it could go that way


Thanks that was really cool to see. So removing 1.4 of jump bonuses (not 1.6 because I think she would do 3F last at least if only 1 jump had the bonus), it's 79.27.

Your scoring is great and fair. The main change I would make is giving +3 on the 3Lz-3Lo, especially the Olympics SP one. Looking at Anna, Sasha, Yuma and some others, it's so hard to do a great 3Lz-3Lo. There's lots of distance between Alina's 2 jumps in comparison and nice height for both jumps - so 0.6 more there. (I would even give Alina +3/+4 on the +5 scale for her not as good 3Lz-3Los because she's that much better than all the rest imo). Aside from that the 2A I would only give +1 but first spin +3 so they cancel out. Then 36+ PCS instead of 35.8 and I have my 80+, but that's me. :biggrin:

Aliona didn't even score it, but her Jr. GPF was an 80+ program!
 
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starlight97

Final Flight
Joined
Jun 14, 2014
Well I watched Game of Thrones after 2019 so going back and rewatching those programs now makes them more disappointing because it turns out Daenerys is a very sly and complex character, perhaps something Aliona could pull off
I would have actually loved to see Alena skate to "Light of the 7".
The gloomy yet graceful music which builds up to almost threatening towards the end would truly suit her. She would have been amazing at really hitting the notes and little moments that are in there, while at the same time showcasing her flow.

However, Polina Tsurskaya's SP to that music was imo one of the best programs Team Tudberitze has ever produced.
Perfect costume, right music cut, great choreo (did Daniil even do that program?) and Polina delivered it stunningly when she was on.
 

Jontor

Medalist
Joined
Jan 18, 2018
Country
Sweden
I would have actually loved to see Alena skate to "Light of the 7".
The gloomy yet graceful music which builds up to almost threatening towards the end would truly suit her. She would have been amazing at really hitting the notes and little moments that are in there, while at the same time showcasing her flow.

However, Polina Tsurskaya's SP to that music was imo one of the best programs Team Tudberitze has ever produced.
Perfect costume, right music cut, great choreo (did Daniil even do that program?) and Polina delivered it stunningly when she was on.
When it comes to Alena I find her to be a typical Kwan skater. She has fantastic posture and grace out there on the ice, and some people mistake that for artistic talent. Some even say she has great skating skills.

That said, I also find Alena to be a fantastic skater. Just because she is so fantastic to look at. But let's be real, that's what it is. That gift is rare and that's her strength.
 

rollerblade

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 12, 2014
When it comes to Alena I find her to be a typical Kwan skater. She has fantastic posture and grace out there on the ice, and some people mistake that for artistic talent. Some even say she has great skating skills.
I don't understand what you're trying to say here. It is simultaneously a compliment and an insult, to more than one skater. :laugh:

Is this like the artiste vs the performer? Alas, only one counts for scoring.
 

Dawn825

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 19, 2021
I know this isnt specifically a Russian women's topic but I'm curious to get your take on this. I saw on Twitter that Alla proposed streamlining PCS categories into just SS, CO, and PE.
Am I the only one who has been thinking this for ages? Transitions are just a huge component of choreography. If there aren't many complex, creative and musical transitions, how can the choreography be good? If there are, how can the choreography be bad? And what is interpretation, if not a combination of how the choreography and the skater's emotional performance match the music, style, or story.
 

Lzbee

Final Flight
Joined
Sep 25, 2016
I know this isnt specifically a Russian women's topic but I'm curious to get your take on this. I saw on Twitter that Alla proposed streamlining PCS categories into just SS, CO, and PE.
Am I the only one who has been thinking this for ages? Transitions are just a huge component of choreography. If there aren't many complex, creative and musical transitions, how can the choreography be good? If there are, how can the choreography be bad? And what is interpretation, if not a combination of how the choreography and the skater's emotional performance match the music, style, or story.
Hmmm I'm not sure. I don't really like the composition category name, it doesn't really mean anything without the rule details to define it.

Choreography can be good without transitions if it fits the music. It can be bad with lots of transitions if there random and don't hit any musical accents. That's just in general though, I think more transitions is better in the context of a sport.

I'd rather see PCS be separated into more categories tbh and be judged by a different panel. It kind of infuriates me that one of the reasons they rejected that proposal was that judges felt like they didn't have enough to do. (If they'd been doing their job properly they'd have had too much to do!).

In particular, I'd really like to see skating skills be separated out to speed, edge control, body control, flow etc. These are things that are not completely subjective and I don't think are evaluated with enough detail.
 

readernick

Medalist
Joined
Dec 5, 2015
Country
Taiwan
I'd rather see PCS be separated into more categories tbh and be judged by a different panel. It kind of infuriates me that one of the reasons they rejected that proposal was that judges felt like they didn't have enough to do. (If they'd been doing their job properly they'd have had too much to do!).

In particular, I'd really like to see skating skills be separated out to speed, edge control, body control, flow etc. These are things that are not completely subjective and I don't think are evaluated with enough detail.
Agree with this 💯 Percent! I also think that judges should check boxes to award bullet points rather than just inputting a positive or negative number for GOE.
 

sclloyd

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 20, 2019
Country
United-States
Hmmm I'm not sure. I don't really like the composition category name, it doesn't really mean anything without the rule details to define it.

Choreography can be good without transitions if it fits the music. It can be bad with lots of transitions if there random and don't hit any musical accents. That's just in general though, I think more transitions is better in the context of a sport.

I'd rather see PCS be separated into more categories tbh and be judged by a different panel. It kind of infuriates me that one of the reasons they rejected that proposal was that judges felt like they didn't have enough to do. (If they'd been doing their job properly they'd have had too much to do!).

In particular, I'd really like to see skating skills be separated out to speed, edge control, body control, flow etc. These are things that are not completely subjective and I don't think are evaluated with enough detail.
I would normally agree with this, except that the judges already don’t judge by category anyways. They just give a general score that’s often related to their thoughts on the skater, not on the actual bullet points defined for each category.

Reducing the number of categories might assist judges who are scoring live because there are fewer categories for them to focus on. In that way it might be easier for them to actually judge category each by their criteria and not just by their overall impression of the skate/skater.
 

sclloyd

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 20, 2019
Country
United-States
Agree with this 💯 Percent! I also think that judges should check boxes to award bullet points rather than just inputting a positive or negative number for GOE.
THIS. Would be brilliant to see judging based on the judging parameters. Many components of GOE get overlooked because they aren’t the main one or two things typically associated with GOE.
 

nussnacker

one and only
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 16, 2019
I know this isnt specifically a Russian women's topic but I'm curious to get your take on this. I saw on Twitter that Alla proposed streamlining PCS categories into just SS, CO, and PE.
Am I the only one who has been thinking this for ages? Transitions are just a huge component of choreography. If there aren't many complex, creative and musical transitions, how can the choreography be good? If there are, how can the choreography be bad? And what is interpretation, if not a combination of how the choreography and the skater's emotional performance match the music, style, or story.
I’ve also been saying we only need to leave 3 PCS categories: 1 for PE, IN, 1 for TR and CO, 1 for SS. I hope they’re not getting rid of TR score and will just include it into CO score.
I read another offer is to separate PCS and TES panels, also would be good to do that.

Overall, supportive of the suggestion to reduce it to 3, since 5 were unnecessary imo. Hope it will help to reduce subjectiveness
to just 1 component in PCS.

I would also personally be happy if the weight of the PCS score was reduced in general, maybe to 0.6 instead of 0.8 or 1.0 (for both men and women).
 

lurkerghost1

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 6, 2021
On the one hand, I like that this might help the judges separate the components of PCS and decrease the “PCS corridor.” On the other hand, who are we kidding, the PCS will continue to be abused. Also the fact that Alla proposed it makes me against it.

I also agree that speed should be its own PCS category - I would split up skating skills into speed and control. The chief example of this being Davis/White vs. virtue/moir - Davis and white had insane speed but didn’t hold their edges nearly as deeply or as longly as Tessa and Scott
 
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