Raise The Senior Ladies Age To 17 Please!

[Mathman]

they do not fly after jumping through the air, they must successfully and correctly land on the ice - and this is the most extreme test of skating skills. In addition, a beautiful and flawlessly executed jump becomes the highlight of the program, which has a positive effect on the artistry of the performance.

Quite true, quite true. Still, I think there is an overemphasis on just the rotations at the relative expense of a well-controled, flowing edge landing and the perfor\mece qualities and musical appropriateness of the jump. A skater can do the worst jump ever, even falling, and stull get a lot of points just for rotating 4 times, the jump having no other merit.

 

[AxelLover]

Personally, I would have much rather seen Uno’s or Hiwatashi’s careers not curtailed because of Hanyu and Brown’s artificial longevity. And not see Kolyada’s being brought back from retirement and propped at the expense of the younger skaters.

What makes you think that Hanyu's and Brown's longevity is artificial?

As for Kolyada, he is by far the best Russian male skater. He's got it all – skating skills, spins, steps, musicality, artistry, elegance and beautiful arm movements. Yes, he's not very consistent jumper, but his jumps are spectacular when he hits them.

 

[Alegria]

If Norway's proposition of raising age limit to 17 is accepted, we won't see Sofya Akatieva on senior stage till 2025/26(!).
It's beyond absurd and plain cruel towards such immense talent. Why are we doing this to our beloved sport?

Even if it won't accepted there is no guarantee that we will see her in seniors.
It's not like all juniors successfully move to seniors. How many people thought that Polina Tsurskaya would win olympic gold in Korea, for example?

 

[Alex Fedorov]

Quite true, quite true. Still, I think there is an overemphasis on just the rotations at the relative expense of a well-controled, flowing edge landing and the perfor\mece qualities and musical appropriateness of the jump. A skater can do the worst jump ever, even falling, and stull get a lot of points just for rotating 4 times, the jump having no other merit.

I am, of course, not an expert in this matter. I am not a judge, and therefore I have the right to evaluate, first of all, the general aesthetic impression of a jump. As for falls - theoretically, we can introduce a harsh, but simple rule: any fall destroys the jump. In this case, the audience will definitely have less disagreement with the judges.

Musical appropriateness - this is a real problem. Quite often I see how jumps become some kind of alien inclusion in the overall composition. But this is difficult to assess objectively. In such cases, even the old 6.0 system sometimes performed better.

 

[moonvine]

what if they were three interchangeable (or not interchangeable) US women? Would it still be boring?

Probably. And while I love Nathan Chen and he is an amazing skater the fact that he won every time for 3 years was pretty boring. So it’s not just the ladies.

Ice dance is the worst. Even worse than ladies.

The men are getting a little more interesting because it’s getting to where a skater who is truly great artistically can beat another skater with higher technical content. If that were true in all circumstances it would be much more interesting. In any discipline, with skaters from any country.

 

[moonvine]

Male skaters rarely talk about it, but some do speak out about eating disorders. It’s a troubling topic. But it is also troubling that everyone is okay with male skaters being on average shorter or thinner than average and if they are young, well, look, they are charmingly boyish and nobody ever requested them to have wider shoulders, divide them by height or or discuss how the podium is really boys, not senior men or how they are unnaturally flexible vs muscle bound, how their upper body is lacking in girth and biceps are not in evidence.

Fans exhibit sort of parental attitude toward senior men and sort of mate-searching toward senior women.

Which fans? If I’m going to search for a mate among figure skaters it will be among the senior men, thanks.

That BMI rule is one of the best things I’ve ever heard.

 

[moonvine]

Well, you aren’t getting any randomized studies from me. I’m done for the year. Haha

I bet there is a higher percentage of viewers in Russia than the USA.

I bet there is too. Because figure skating is major sport in Russia but not USA. I bet there are more baseball fans in USA than Russia.

 

[lariko]

What makes you think that Hanyu's and Brown's longevity is artificial?

As for Kolyada, he is by far the best Russian male skater. He's got it all – skating skills, spins, steps, musicality, artistry, elegance and beautiful arm movements. Yes, he's not very consistent jumper, but his jumps are spectacular when he hits them.

Because their scoring doesn’t reflect their present day performance.

And, nope, Kolyada is not the best Russian male skater. There is a few of them, all having pluses and minuses.

 

[vorravorra]

What makes you think that Hanyu's and Brown's longevity is artificial?

As for Kolyada, he is by far the best Russian male skater. He's got it all – skating skills, spins, steps, musicality, artistry, elegance and beautiful arm movements. Yes, he's not very consistent jumper, but his jumps are spectacular when he hits them.

One Russian man who can and has successfully competed, showing that it's perfectly doable, is Aliev, but he gets it together so infrequently he's not been in a position to displace Kolyada as Russia's #1. Also, to point out the obvious, nobody was pushed into retirement to promote Kolyada to Russia's #1, he appeared on the scene and grabbed that spot because he was better.

 

[moonvine]

And the crystal ball told us that she will retire in 2023, plus it is inexplicably a bad thing, because see how Zagitova suffers basking in glory and popularity.

And how Hanyu leads his best life after his long glorious career with his totally uninjured body, obsessively pursuing 4A behind the scenes and barely competing.

Personally, I would have much rather seen Uno’s or Hiwatashi’s careers not curtailed because of Hanyu and Brown’s artificial longevity. And not see Kolyada’s being brought back from retirement and propped at the expense of the younger skaters.

I would rather see them all continue to 30 or more.

 

[el henry]

Because their scoring doesn’t reflect their present day performance.

And, nope, Kolyada is not the best Russian male skater. There is a few of them, all having pluses and minuses.

True, Jason is underscored with his present day performance. But the judges are getting better at rewarding him accurately for what he does

He is not holding down Tomoki, or any Russian skater, or anyone else. If those skaters think that (and I am fairly certain that Tomoki does not, I don't know enough about the others), then no wonder they can't outscore him. No more than Liza T. is holding any other ladies' skater down.

 

[lariko]

True, Jason is underscored with his present day performance. But the judges are getting better at rewarding him accurately for what he does

He is not holding down Tomoki, or any Russian skater, or anyone else. If those skaters think that (and I am fairly certain that Tomoki does not, I don't know enough about the others), then no wonder they can't outscore him. No more than Liza T. is holding any other ladies' skater down.

He is egregiously, shamelessly over-scored, of course, but the point is, that if the judges are willing to score him and we accept that, thinks no different from judges scoring the women who just started seniors higher than the ones that skated for a long time.

It’s polar opposite, so we see so many more women, but pretty much the same men year after year after year in the second half of the season. At least with women, if you don’t connect with one or two, there are plenty of choices to root for and in a year or two there might be someone who is more to your taste. With men you suffer for years and years if the top guy is not your cup of tea.

 

[alexocfp]

I bet there is too. Because figure skating is major sport in Russia but not USA. I bet there are more baseball fans in USA than Russia.

That’s a safe bet. Baseball isn’t a European sport.

Although, soon there may not be any baseball fans in the USA either. They are having a crapload of trouble getting young viewers.

 

[vorravorra]

He is egregiously, shamelessly over-scored, of course, but the point is, that if the judges are willing to score him and we accept that, thinks no different from judges scoring the women who just started seniors higher than the ones that skated for a long time.

It’s polar opposite, so we see so many more women, but pretty much the same men year after year after year in the second half of the season. At least with women, if you don’t connect with one or two, there are plenty of choices to root for and in a year or two there might be someone who is more to your taste. With men you suffer for years and years if the top guy is not your cup of tea.

I'd much rather watch Mozalev for years even if he doesn't make it to the big competitions now, than know that if Muravieva doesn't have success in her first senior season she never will and might as well retire.

 

[lariko]

I'd much rather watch Mozalev for years even if he doesn't make it to the big competitions now, than know that if Muravieva doesn't have success in her first senior season she never will and might as well retire.

From the dynamics I see in men vs women seniors, Murav’yeva’s odds are better than Mozalev’s to see more large senior starts during their respective career spans. And, Valieva as acting junior world champion among women is a super star, poised to win Olympics, while Mozalev, world junior champion in men is 7th in his only GP stage.

 

[vorravorra]

From the dynamics I see in men vs women seniors, Murav’yeva’s odds are better than Mozalev’s to see more large senior starts during their respective career spans.

If Muravieva was Akatieva or Zhilina, than maybe, but as it is I have doubts. What I am confident about is that Mozalev will see more GP events. With Muravieva there is a non-negligible chance that her number of GP events will be 0 despite her SB being comfortably within the top 24 and her making it to the JGPF. The Russian men do not have to contend with the kind of competition where none of the above is good enough. And I don't find "if Muravieva doesn't make it, then there is Akatieva and Zhilina, then Titova/Rubtsova/Dvoeglazova" particularly consoling because the girls are not interchangeable.

 

[el henry]

He is egregiously, shamelessly over-scored, of course, but the point is, that if the judges are willing to score him and we accept that, thinks no different from judges scoring the women who just started seniors higher than the ones that skated for a long time.

It’s polar opposite, so we see so many more women, but pretty much the same men year after year after year in the second half of the season. At least with women, if you don’t connect with one or two, there are plenty of choices to root for and in a year or two there might be someone who is more to your taste. With men you suffer for years and years if the top guy is not your cup of tea.

We are going to agree to disagree about Jason, as you know.

But on the larger point, and relating to the subject at hand, the women, a lengthy career works just as well for skaters that one likes as for skaters that one dislikes, doesn't it? Isn't there a skater that you would just love to see skate for ten years? See their changes, their development, how they rally, how they don't, what they learn, what they don't? Loving a skater to have them quit while in juniors or a year after, you never have the excitement of going on their journey. I would be sad in such circumstances (and have been)

I think that is what some posters are saying they would like to see with the women, although I don't want to speak for them as those aren't my reasons for being inclined to raise the age.

 

[lariko]

If Muravieva was Akatieva or Zhilina, than maybe, but as it is I have doubts. What I am confident about is that Mozalev will see more GP events. With Muravieva there is a non-negligible chance that her number of GP events will be 0 despite her SB being comfortably within the top 24 and her making it to the JGPF. The Russian men do not have to contend with the kind of competition where none of the above is good enough. And I don't find "if Muravieva doesn't make it, then there is Akatieva and Zhilina, then Titova/Rubtsova/Dvoeglazova" particularly consoling because the girls are not interchangeable.

Maybe I am not reading the points system correctly, but without Eu/World, even if Mozalev does well in Zagreb, his points ranking will drop into 30ish, because whoever does well in juniors and everyone who gets points for Eu/4CC/Worlds will be ahead, and his JWC will no longer counts. If he is out of 24, he doesn’t have GP.

 

[lariko]

Isn't there a skater that you would just love to see skate for ten years? See their changes, their development, how they rally, how they don't, what they learn, what they don't?

No, I don’t watch figure skating to follow someone for ten years. I want to watch a fair competition, where all athletes always get what they skated for, with very different skaters winning different competitions. That’s why I like JGP, because there are so many of the skaters and results can be unexpected. If they will have junior Eu/4CC i would be thrilled. And, if they raise age limit, I will likely quit watching seniors, because seniors are repetitive and scoring leaves much to be desired. In juniors, skaters I like often win, and if they don’t in one event, they win in another or leave. In seniors, I am yet to see a single skater who climbed up, at least in men. They seem to come in with their score pre-written on their back.

 

[el henry]

No, I don’t watch figure skating to follow someone for ten years. I want to watch a fair competition, where all athletes always get what they skated for, with very different skaters winning different competitions. That’s why I like JGP, because there are so many of the skaters and results can be unexpected. If they will have junior Eu/4CC i would be thrilled. And, if they raise age limit, I will likely quit watching seniors, because seniors are repetitive and scoring leaves much to be desired.

Everyone wants to see a fair competition, I believe.

I love my junior men, not because they're unpredictable but because I can say: that one, that one I'm following. Seven years ago I said to myself, who is this Andrew T. at 14, what presence! That one will be fun and exciting to watch over the years, to see how he skates at comps, how he does at comps, how he improves.

So we look for different things, which is to be expected from different fans. I don't watch all that much of the junior women or the senior women (I have seen Will Annis and Jacob Sanchez skate far more often than I have seen Kamila or Alysa or any junior woman), so any (ETA: proposed) changes won't make much difference for me.