2021-22 Russian Women's Figure Skating

[flanker]

Oh my god, I just don't understand. Aliona fans will readily admit she has an iffy Lutz, Sasha fans will readily accept her flips being called but Anna fans will throw a fit if you suggest that her lutzes were flat. The numbers are numbers, I'm not trying to drag her down as a person.

Putting a call on every single one of Anna's Lutzes is insane. That has nothing to do with reality. I doubt Aliona's fans would accept the same (esp. stripping her of the most of the important titles), but they don't have to, nobody spends hours and days by rewatching her programs and "correcting" the protocols.

As for Sasha, you probably forgot the outcry about Sasha's Flip being called at the cup stages a year ago.

 

[Lzbee]

Putting a call on every single one of Anna's Lutzes is insane. That has nothing to do with reality. I doubt Aliona's fans would accept the same, but they don't have to, nobody spends hours and days by rewatching her programs and "correcting" the protocols.

As for Sasha, you probably forgot the outcry about Sasha's Flip being called at the cup stages a year ago.

That's because it was the first time and people were shocked. Sasha's flips have been called multiple times since and there isn't an outcry about it every time because people can see that she did deserve them.

Aliona's lutzes were called in her junior years and they've been regressing this year too. People point it out all the time but you don't remember people pointing it out because nobody makes a big deal about it. Yes, her lutzes should've been called this year. Yes, that might mean she should've been off the podium at Skate Canada and therefore not at GPF. Nothing more to say when you just accept it.

Why is it so insane if her all lutzes are called flat? For example, every single one of Kaori's lutzes should be called as wrong edge but they're not only because judges like her. I was not accounting for judge bias in my number crunching. It doesn't even matter in the end because she got the scores that she did officially and won the medals that she won. Nothings going to take that away so why are you so offended about some numbers?

 

[sclloyd]

Oh my god, I just don't understand. Aliona fans will readily admit she has an iffy Lutz, Sasha fans will readily accept her flips being called but Anna fans will throw a fit if you suggest that her lutzes were flat. The numbers are numbers, I'm not trying to drag her down as a person.

Of course. But Sasha did have a lip at RusNats 2019, and as much as I love Aliona, I’m not going to argue over Anna winning RusNats 2020 because a 2 point difference is just— so small. Even if you say five points for a lutz edge call. I could go look up the skates right now and nitpick but I won’t because it’s not worth it. And I say that as the ultimate Aliona fan.

 

[Lzbee]

Of course. But Sasha did have a lip at RusNats 2019, and as much as I love Aliona, I’m not going to argue over Anna winning RusNats 2020 because a 2 point difference is just— so small. Even if you say five points for a lutz edge call. I could go loom up the skates right now and nitpick but I won’t because it’s not worth it.

That's fine if it doesn't matter to you. I'm just trying to say that edge calls are expensive and 5 points is a lot. It's more than the base value of a whole 3Lo jumping pass.

And sure, I can do the numbers for Sasha too. In 2019, if her flips were called, she'd be losing about 3 points. (She did 3 flips Vs Anna's 4 lutzes and none of her flips were quads.)

 

[Amei]

Of course. But Sasha did have a lip at RusNats 2019, and as much as I love Aliona, I’m not going to argue over Anna winning RusNats 2020 because a 2 point difference is just— so small. Even if you say five points for a lutz edge call. I could go look up the skates right now and nitpick but I won’t because it’s not worth it. And I say that as the ultimate Aliona fan.

Regarding 2020 - Kostornaia's FS had some less than ideal landings and received all positive GOE, Shcherbakova's problem landing on her 4F did get a negative GOE --- IMO watching the 2 FS's again, if Kostornaia got positive GOE on her 3F-3T, then Shcherbakova should have been given 0 GOE (nothing negative, nothing positive) if not positive GOE as well.

If we all nit-pick on all 3 girls and excessively slow-motion and zoom in on take-offs and landings (of which judges don't necessarily have the access to at competitions, which so many people seem to forget) they all probably have some errors that got overlooked, per my comment earlier at Nationals a lot of times top skaters get lenient calling. Look at Nationals last year, Valieva got almost 80 points for a SP with a fall on her triple axel.

 

[alexocfp]

Got to say, some of the posters here are hardcore and I can only admire their dedication.

Going back 3 years and uncovering some call at the 2 minute and 34.59464 second mark that was maybe questionable.

Luckily they don‘t employ me. Would be sacked cause I came in the office 2 seconds late. Haha

 

[lurkerghost1]

And let’s say we did judge by the tech panel at Cup of China— then scores overall would’ve been lower and there’s really no way to say what elements of the others they would or wouldn’t drop.

Let’s not also forget that Sasha fell in 2019 and even if the lutz was called, she still could’ve won with a clean skate. I also don’t think it even matters because if we’re judging by some sort of tech panel from China then at least one of Sasha’s flips at RusNats in 2019 would’ve also been called for a flat edge.

And almost everyone really thinks that Angel at NHK was better but it was the GPF at performance that broke the WR— that point difference was about 1-1.5 right? These close close calls are so inscrutable that there’s really no need to rehash perceived flaws. We can microanalyze every program and add and deduct points to say “see they should’ve won instead.”

Of course. But Sasha did have a lip at RusNats 2019, and as much as I love Aliona, I’m not going to argue over Anna winning RusNats 2020 because a 2 point difference is just— so small. Even if you say five points for a lutz edge call. I could go look up the skates right now and nitpick but I won’t because it’s not worth it. And I say that as the ultimate Aliona fan.

Trusova absolutely did not have a lip at rusnats 2019, that is an inside edge flip. Flip is not supposed to be a deep edge like lutz is: https://youtu.be/4_4NzOVTr8k?t=97

It should not be controversial to say Anna gains more from domestic scoring than Sasha or Aliona, all the evidence points towards it. Even last year on the domestic cup stages Anna scored 77 with a 3Lz2Lo combo for example. Not to mention her reliance on the lutz when it also should not be controversial to say Sasha has always had a better lutz and as of 2019-20 so does Aliona. So yes her very narrow domestic margins absolutely deserve scrutiny.

I say that by the way as someone hoping Anna beats out Sasha for the team because Sasha has not delivered as a senior while Anna's mental game is probably the best I've seen for an athlete in any sport.

 

[sclloyd]

Trusova absolutely did not have a lip at rusnats 2019, that is an inside edge flip. Flip is not supposed to be a deep edge like lutz is: https://youtu.be/4_4NzOVTr8k?t=97

It should not be controversial to say Anna gains more from domestic scoring than Sasha or Aliona, all the evidence points towards it. Even last year on the domestic cup stages Anna scored 77 with a 3Lz2Lo combo for example. Not to mention her reliance on the lutz when it also should not be controversial to say Sasha has always had a better lutz and as of 2019-20 so does Aliona. So yes her very narrow domestic margins absolutely deserve scrutiny.

I say that by the way as someone hoping Anna beats out Sasha for the team because Sasha has not delivered as a senior while Anna's mental game is probably the best I've seen for an athlete in any sport.

Sasha does have a better lutz. But if you watch the slo mo replay of that exact flip after the program you can see exactly where her edge goes flat— I guess I shouldn’t say it’s a lip, I’m not Koola calling every unclear edge a flutz— but if slo-mo replays were allowed she’d definitely get an unclear edge call because that blade is absolutely flat at the moment right before picking. In some cases skaters appear to have edge issues when they revert the edge after the weight has shifted to the picking foot but that isn’t the case here.

That same competition, as Amei just pointed out, Kamila got nearly 80 with a 3A fall. So I mean, you’re just pointing out a more broad issue I have with over inflation and not necessarily something that’s applied exclusively to Anna. I think Aliona and Sasha have been historically undervalued in seniors but on the other hand, I don’t think that Sasha was better than Anna in 2019 RusNats, and I don’t think Aliona’s iffy landings were called with the same scrutiny as Anna’s even if they overlooked edge issues in 2020. It’s just too close to scrutinize when live. We could exhaust the same nitpicking efforts on the minutia of a difference between Zhenya and Alina, but at the end of the day, you could come up with a million arrangements of scores that out Zhenya on top and that wouldn’t get us any closer to saying who really “deserved” the victory at the Olympics.

 

[sclloyd]

Regarding 2020 - Kostornaia's FS had some less than ideal landings and received all positive GOE, Shcherbakova's problem landing on her 4F did get a negative GOE --- IMO watching the 2 FS's again, if Kostornaia got positive GOE on her 3F-3T, then Shcherbakova should have been given 0 GOE (nothing negative, nothing positive) if not positive GOE as well.

If we all nit-pick on all 3 girls and excessively slow-motion and zoom in on take-offs and landings (of which judges don't necessarily have the access to at competitions, which so many people seem to forget) they all probably have some errors that got overlooked, per my comment earlier at Nationals a lot of times top skaters get lenient calling. Look at Nationals last year, Valieva got almost 80 points for a SP with a fall on her triple axel.

Which inevitably goes back to my previous posts about the scoring issues and how really inconsequential the tech panel is. Like another poster said— RusFed could give every one of Sasha’s five quads a -4 even if she landed them just to boost Liza and say “well that is what we’ve decided.” If you have to get into gritty slo-mo detail to make a point about live scoring where slo-mo replays aren’t allowed then you aren’t actually making a point about the scores themselves but the way everyone is scored in general.

In which case I’d say yes if we’re going to be so nitpicky about some take-off edges then the judges should be allowed to call after the fact by using slo-mo footage and then them not calling Anna’s edge would be an injustice. But that’s not how live scoring is done, and the tech panel doesn’t get our camera angles when they’re standing at the boards.

 

[flanker]

That's because it was the first time and people were shocked. Sasha's flips have been called multiple times since and there isn't an outcry about it every time because people can see that she did deserve them.

Aliona's lutzes were called in her junior years and they've been regressing this year too. People point it out all the time but you don't remember people pointing it out because nobody makes a big deal about it. Yes, her lutzes should've been called this year. Yes, that might mean she should've been off the podium at Skate Canada and therefore not at GPF. Nothing more to say when you just accept it.

It wasn't for the first time and I don't want to ignite a team war again to analyze what was behind the outrage.

Aliona received "whole" three Lutz calls during her two junior seasons and I think one Lutz and one Flip call during the first senior season. It's in no way comparable with your offer for Anna.

Why is it so insane if her all lutzes are called flat? For example, every single one of Kaori's lutzes should be called as wrong edge but they're not only because judges like her. I was not accounting for judge bias in my number crunching. It doesn't even matter in the end because she got the scores that she did officially and won the medals that she won. Nothings going to take that away so why are you so offended about some numbers?

Because they (=all of them) are not, simple as that. Do not fight a strawman, I am in no way saying "none of her Lutzes should be called". It's simply the intensity with which Anna is repeatedly, season by season, scrutinized, doubted, criticized that is incomparable with any other top lady, esp. considering that every season all Anna's "sins" from the previous seasons are pulled out from the magician's hat again and again

Sometimes I really have to wonder what is the motivation for all of that, because there is hardly any excitement for skating as a whole. I also have favourite and "less favourite" skaters, but just like @sclloyd has written, everyone "could go look up the skates right now and nitpick", but it's not "worth of it." That's maybe why I'm reacting to such comments, because I simply do not understand.

 

[Azikin]

Just because the insane tech panel at the Cup of China there is no need to call ALL OF THEM. Let's not turn this thread into another "Anna and Lutzes" throughout history.

Let's rather remember the moment Anna became the champion of Russia for the first time...

I'll never forget her surprised expression.. it's a great video with Polina, Diana and Liza N. around..

 

[halulupu]

Oh my god, I just don't understand. Aliona fans will readily admit she has an iffy Lutz, Sasha fans will readily accept her flips being called but Anna fans will throw a fit if you suggest that her lutzes were flat. The numbers are numbers, I'm not trying to drag her down as a person.

This! Bravo. Some poster here a really acting like bots and don't accept any valid points

 

[Lzbee]

It wasn't for the first time and I don't want to ignite a team war again to analyze what was behind the outrage.

Aliona received "whole" three Lutz calls during her two junior seasons and I think one Lutz and one Flip call during the first senior season. It's in no way comparable with your offer for Anna.


Because they (=all of them) are not, simple as that. Do not fight a strawman, I am in no way saying "none of her Lutzes should be called". It's simply the intensity with which Anna is repeatedly, season by season, scrutinized, doubted, criticized that is incomparable with any other top lady, esp. considering that every season all Anna's "sins" from the previous seasons are pulled out from the magician's hat again and again

Sometimes I really have to wonder what is the motivation for all of that, because there is hardly any excitement for skating as a whole. I also have favourite and "less favourite" skaters, but just like @sclloyd has written, everyone "could go look up the skates right now and nitpick", but it's not "worth of it." That's maybe why I'm reacting to such comments, because I simply do not understand.

All of Aliona's junior lutzes should have been called.
In my comparisons, I also call all of Aliona's lutzes and all of Sasha's flips.

I'm still replying about this because people like to brag about how the Russian women are great at squeezing out points - and it's true, the Eteri layouts are genius. See Anna's three triple combos. But then when others say but lenient judging is bad and helps them some skaters to stay out of reach, fans say, but 2 points don't matter. When 2 points is commonly the difference between placements, even multiple placements, then yes it does matter and it's important that judges get this right because it affects people's careers and the integrity of the sport. And no, I'm not saying that it only helps the Russian women.

Also, you haven't told me which of Anna's lutzes not to call. I can call just one of her quads and she'd lose 2 points which is more than the margin between her and Sasha unless you call all of Sasha's flips. You can even do re-scoring yourself to back up your points but for some reason you refuse to. The tools are out there and it's easy to do.

 

[Lzbee]

Regarding 2020 - Kostornaia's FS had some less than ideal landings and received all positive GOE, Shcherbakova's problem landing on her 4F did get a negative GOE --- IMO watching the 2 FS's again, if Kostornaia got positive GOE on her 3F-3T, then Shcherbakova should have been given 0 GOE (nothing negative, nothing positive) if not positive GOE as well.

This I can agree with. Solid points referring to quantifiable things that can be checked.

Figure skating is a sport, surely there should be nitpicking? It's pretty embarrassing for the ISU that their judging falls apart under scrutiny according to their own rulebook.

 

[Lzbee]

Anyway, I'm done.

Happy birthday Empress Liza!

 

[flanker]

Also, you haven't told me which of Anna's lutzes not to call. I can call just one of her quads and she'd lose 2 points which is more than the margin between her and Sasha unless you call all of Sasha's flips. You can even do re-scoring yourself to back up your points but for some reason you refuse to. The tools are out there and it's easy to do.

Just because some people worship the 11th commandment "Thou shalt not leave Anna's Lutz without an edge call" I do not feel obliged to leave everything, esp. in a christmas time and before nationals, and revisit all of the Lutzes of Anna throughout history.

I took part in discussions after the particular comeptitions, when it was actually actual, but in 2021-22 season I really do not intend to bring skates two years old just in arguing whether this or that edge is "flat, 2 or 20 degrees outside, yes it was in the moment of the take-off" and doing such "useful" things as rescoring at skating scores till the results fit my preferences

Mama: "What have you done the whole day, my dear?"

Child: "I was rescoring olympis/GPXY/Worlds/Russian Nationals."

Mama: "Oh, such a good and hardworking boy you are."

Honestly, what people can do with their free time brings me the idea that industrial revolution was a big mistake

 

[Dawn825]

Its not really that simple. While we're taking off GOE points for edges, why dont we take them off for excessive prerotation/blade assists? Anna and Sasha jump almost exclusively flips and lutzes, and lose a ton of points. Aliona easily wins 2019 and 2020 nationals. Anna still wins 2021, but only if we also take off points for Kamila's combos. And we might get a completely different arrangement of scores if we went element by element, bullet by bullet. No sense debating who would have won if the technical scores were only slightly more accurate.

 

[lesnar001]

Way too much over-analysis of the scores. In that regard only, I sometimes wish they still used 6.0 system.

Serious question, though....
Do the judges ever have to explain how they arrived at their scoring?
The only thing I remember was Joe Inman's in-depth analysis of his rankings in the 2002 Ladies' LP at the Olympics.
Of course, that was under 6.0, but it did show what he thought were the important factors in making his decision.

 

[Lzbee]

Just because some people worship the 11th commandment "Thou shalt not leave Anna's Lutz without an edge call" I do not feel obliged to leave everything, esp. in a christmas time and before nationals, and revisit all of the Lutzes of Anna throughout history.

I took part in discussions after the particular comeptitions, when it was actually actual, but in 2021-22 season I really do not intend to bring skates two years old just in arguing whether this or that edge is "flat, 2 or 20 degrees outside, yes it was in the moment of the take-off" and doing such "useful" things as rescoring at skating scores till the results fit my preferences

Mama: "What have you done the whole day, my dear?"

Child: "I was rescoring olympis/GPXY/Worlds/Russian Nationals."

Mama: "Oh, such a good and hardworking boy you are."

Honestly, what people can do with their free time brings me the idea that industrial revolution was a big mistake

I see we're stooping to ad hominem attacks now. Nice.

 

[Jontor]

Just because the insane tech panel at the Cup of China there is no need to call ALL OF THEM. Let's not turn this thread into another "Anna and Lutzes" throughout history.

Let's rather remember the moment Anna became the champion of Russia for the first time...

I love this. And Nugumanova and Tsurskaya was the first ones to congratulate her!